Cleveland Kidnapping

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The Duchess of Zeon
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Cleveland Kidnapping

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

CLEVELAND — A Cleveland police official says a 6-year-old girl found in the house where three missing women were kept for years is the daughter of one of them.

A frantic 911 call led police to a house near downtown Cleveland, where the three women were found Monday.

Police say Amanda Berry, Gina DeJesus and Michelle Knight were held inside the house since they were in their teens or early 20s.

Cleveland police Deputy Chief Ed Tomba says the girl is believed to be Amanda Berry’s daughter.

Knight disappeared in 2002, Berry in 2003 and DeJesus about a year after that.

Officials say three brothers, ages 50 to 54, are in custody.
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This feels so depressing, and like everyone in the case was useless and failed utterly at duties as investigators and citizens except the women themselves, who somehow after a decade of brutal captivity mustered the will and resources to escape.
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Re: Cleveland's three Monsters of Amstetten.

Post by Dominus Atheos »

What? The article you posted is really short and doesn't support your comments at all. Is there more to this story?
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Re: Cleveland's three Monsters of Amstetten.

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Three teenage girls disappeared a decade ago (okay, one may have been 20). They've now been found in a house where they were enslaved by three brothers, one of whom fathered a child with one of the captives. They were kept tied up for decades.
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Re: Cleveland's three Monsters of Amstetten.

Post by Broomstick »

So.... how do you go from that to saying that "everyone in the case was useless and failed utterly at duties as investigators and citizens". On what do you base that? That these women weren't found for 10 years? You had three people complicit in this crime and working to keep these women hidden, how does that translate to "everyone in the case was useless and failed utterly at duties as investigators and citizens"? Bad guy doesn't automatically mean stupid or careless. This is hardly the first time someone has succeeded in keeping a woman captive and hidden for years, or fathering a child on such a woman.

I sure as hell don't know everything that goes on in my neighbors' homes, do you? I have, in the past, reported child abuse and criminal activities but I am certain there is much goes on that even the most observant and aware person is going to miss.

I am very glad these women have been rescued and are alive and apparently OK.
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Re: Cleveland's three Monsters of Amstetten.

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

It's just a feeling of useless and atomisation of society so that we no longer really know our neighbours or have a community. It wasn't, I suppose, a serious assertion, just nonviolent venting to contrast the usual "remove their balls with a rusty screwdriver" internet toughguy posts in these threads.
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Re: Cleveland's three Monsters of Amstetten.

Post by Simon_Jester »

I think the "atomization" comment is relevant. At least, it would seem harder to successfully keep three people chained up in the basement, when there's a routine social expectation that you and your neighbors will interact, and that the community is mutually supportive and interlocking.
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Re: Cleveland's three Monsters of Amstetten.

Post by fgalkin »

As it happens, it was a neighbor who heard the screams and came to investigate. Others report interacting with the guy, being invited for barbecues, etc. I don't see how they could have known, other than inspecting the house for secret soundproofed basement dungeons.

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Re: Cleveland's three Monsters of Amstetten.

Post by Simon_Jester »

In that case, having neighbors and community then did make it harder for the women to be kept chained up in the basement, which is about all I can ask, because...

Put this way, Duchess. It is very hard to strike a balance between the community having a respect for your privacy, and the community having the power to detect your crimes. It's intensely frustrating when the community fails to detect a crime, but this seems to be an inherent cost of, for example, having individual homes for single people and small nuclear families, instead of having big communal longhouses for dozens of people at once.

In a 'longhouse society,' there is no way these women could have been kept captive, unless of course a whole tribal extended family was complicit. But in a longhouse society there's no privacy for anyone, ever.
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Guy rescues kidnap victims while eating Mcdonalds

Post by FaxModem1 »

CNN
Charles Ramsey: Hero of abductions case, instant Internet star
By Josh Levs, CNN
updated 3:05 PM EDT, Tue May 7, 2013

(CNN) -- Charles Ramsey was eating some dinner Monday night at his home in Cleveland's West Side when he heard screaming. Soon, he was knocking down a neighbor's door, freeing three women and a girl who police say were held hostage for years.

Within hours the unassuming man, who works as a dishwasher at a local restaurant, was a national hero, a viral video star, and the top topic on Twitter.

"I'm eating my McDonald's, I come outside, and I see this girl going nuts, trying to get out of the house," he told CNN affiliate WEWS in an interview watched around the world.

"I got on the porch and she said, 'Help me get out. I've been here a long time." I figured it was a domestic violence dispute. So I open the door. And we can't get in that way 'cause of how the door is, it's so much that a body can't fit through; only your hand."
Neighbor kicked in door to rescue women
Women rescued after 10-year nightmare
Neighbor heard scream near Castro home
Photos: Kidnapped teens found decade later Photos: Kidnapped teens found decade later

Who are the three women freed in Cleveland?

He and a man named Angel Cordero broke down the door, WEWS reported.

"We kicked the bottom. And she comes out with a little girl and she says 'Call 911. My name is Amanda Berry."

He immediately called 911 -- and only then realized that Berry was the woman who had been missing for years. "I thought this girl was dead," he said.

"She's like, 'This (expletive) kidnapped me and my daughter,'" he told the 911 operator.

After police arrived, Berry explained there were other women inside. When police came out with them, Ramsey said, "it was astonishing."

Berry was last seen after finishing her shift at a Burger King in Cleveland in 2003 on the eve of her 17th birthday. The other two women are Georgina "Gina" DeJesus, who disappeared at age 14 in 2004, and Michelle Knight, who vanished 2002 at age 19, according to the Cleveland Plain Dealer newspaper.

'I barbecue with this dude'

While Ramsey's quick action in the largely run-down neighborhood made him a hero, his colorful descriptions helped make him dream fodder for the Twitterverse.

Explaining that he had no idea Ariel Castro, his neighbor, may have had other people inside his home, Ramsey said, "I've been here a year. You see where I'm coming from? I barbecue with this dude. We eat ribs and whatnot and listen to salsa music...

"He just comes out to his backyard, plays with the dogs, tinkers with his cars and motorcycles, goes back in the house. So he's somebody you look, then look away. He's not doing anything, but the average stuff. You see what I'm saying? There's nothing exciting about him. Well, until today."

Castro "got some big testicles to pull this off, bro," Ramsey said. "Because we see this dude every day. I mean every day."
There's nothing exciting about him. Well, until today.
Charles Ramsey, neighbor

He added, "I knew something was wrong when a little, pretty white girl ran into a black man's arms. Something is wrong here. Dead giveaway."

In one of the top tweets about Ramsey, comedian Patton Oswalt wrote, "Dear Charles Ramsey: I am not a little pretty white girl, but I totally want to run into your black arms. #hero."

Hodge's restaurant in Cleveland posted a message on Facebook saying, "we're extremely proud of our employee Charles Ramsey for not turning his back on the young women. He's a true Cleveland hero. Our thoughts and prayers will continue to be with the women, their families and their friends."

Restaurant owner Chris Hodgson told Cleveland.com that the video shows just what kind of person Ramsey is. "What you see in the video is what you get with Chuck," Hodgson said. "He's calm in the face of crazy and hectic things going on. He always steps up to do anything you ask... He never says no. He always jumps on it."

Ramsey interview goes viral, gets autotune treatment

Breathless 911 call

Ramsey's demeanor also comes across clearly in his 911 call -- in which he began with the fact that he was eating McDonald's.

"Hey bro," Ramsey tells the 911 operator. "Check this out. I just came from McDonald's right? So I'm on my porch eating my little food, right? This broad is trying to break out the f-----g house next door to me, so there's a bunch of people on the street right now and s--t. So we're like, 'What's wrong, what's the problem?' She's like, 'This m--------r done kidnapped me and my daughter... She said her name is Linda Berry or some s--t. I don't know who the f--k that is, I just moved over here bro. You know what I mean?"

He then answers the 911 operator's questions about the woman, what she looks like, and what she's wearing.

Ramsey tells the operator an address which he says corresponds to Berry's location, not Ramsey's home address. "I'm smarter than that bro. I'm telling you were the crime was, not my house," he says.

"Are the people that she said did this, are they still in the house?" the 911 operator asks.

"I don't have a f-----g clue, bro. Like I said, I just came from McDonald's."

The operator then asks him to check whether Berry needs an ambulance.

"She needs everything. She's in a panic, bro. She's been kidnapped, so, you know, put yourself in her shoes."

"We'll send the police out," the operator responds.
Good on him.
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Re: Cleveland's three Monsters of Amstetten.

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

yeah look at the other long term sadists they only got caught because of some freak issue, Lake & Ng shoplifting, Dhamer had talked folks into returning one of his victims to him, people were only tipped off to Gacy because of that "Strange Smell"
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Re: Cleveland's three Monsters of Amstetten.

Post by Dr. Trainwreck »

The Yosemite Bear wrote:Dhamer had talked folks into returning one of his victims to him
It was the eighties and he claimed that the boy/teen was an adult and his lover, I think. They'd have tripped over themselves trying to send the boy back (away from them) as fast as possible. Psychos preying on society's rejects have it easy, especially in regards to homosexuality; Harvey Milk was gunned down in broad daylight and he was in the city council, and yet... you know.

But on the Duchess' question, a lot of it is psychology. We recognize people we see frequently as 'our' people, areas we walk in as 'our' areas; generally people try to create and join a pack, no matter what, because it gives a sense of collective security. The collective joins up for protection, you think to yourself. The collective protects, someone will take care of the problem, eventually, uh... hopefully. It's called bystander apathy, or the bystander effect.
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Re: Guy rescues kidnap victims while eating Mcdonalds

Post by Dr. Trainwreck »

Starring Danny Trejo. Coming soon.
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Re: Guy rescues kidnap victims while eating Mcdonalds

Post by Elfdart »

Here's an interview:



On a lighter note, check out the subtle -yet hilarious- photobomb by the guy in the leather jacket at 0:14. :lol:
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Re: Guy rescues kidnap victims while eating Mcdonalds

Post by ThatOneCatC »

This was a great day to wake up to. These were pretty high profile cases that I can remember. We even have the signs posted here in Columbus. There are some happy police in Cleveland tonight I bet.
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Re: Guy rescues kidnap victims while eating Mcdonalds

Post by Korto »

I'm curious about what changed. I mean, the girl's have been kept prisoner for ten years, and NOW they escape. So what happened? Did one of the guys leave an interior door unlocked? Did, after years of working on it, the girl manage to pry something loose? What happened? It seems doubtful that it took her ten years to think of sticking her arm out and shouting for help.

On another note, the overuse of the label "Hero". To me, Charles Ramsey is not a hero. He's a good citizen, and someone who showed he cared about others. Deserves some kind of citizenship award. But a hero is someone who puts their life in real (immediate) danger when they had a choice.
So a bystander who runs into a merrily blazing house to save someone is a hero, but a pilot who stays at the controls to land a plane that would otherwise crash and kill him is not (lack of any choice), and Charles isn't either due to a lack of any actual apparent danger. That's not to say I don't respect both, but it's watering down the label of "Hero".
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Re: Guy rescues kidnap victims while eating Mcdonalds

Post by ThatOneCatC »

It will be very interesting to hear the tale these women have to tell. Thankfully they lived and seem to be in good health.

I agree that hero might be a strong term to use for the neighbor. However I find no problem with it as it can have nothing but a positive effect on the community to have this chap recognized. He certainly did his civic duty today.
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Re: Guy rescues kidnap victims while eating Mcdonalds

Post by White Haven »

Breaking down the door of a kidnapper's house yourself, alone, unarmed, without any certainty that you won't get shot dead by the kidnapper if he's actually home/returns home while you're in the act? About that lack of any threat to his own life you claim...

Sure, he didn't charge a pillbox with nothing but a wooden spoon, but Ramsey's actions could well have gone very, very if luck had turned against him.
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Re: Guy rescues kidnap victims while eating Mcdonalds

Post by The Romulan Republic »

ThatOneCatC wrote:It will be very interesting to hear the tale these women have to tell. Thankfully they lived and seem to be in good health.

I agree that hero might be a strong term to use for the neighbor. However I find no problem with it as it can have nothing but a positive effect on the community to have this chap recognized. He certainly did his civic duty today.
Good physical health at least. I'd be very surprised if they're in good health mentally after such a horrible experience.

I would certainly call the man who helped rescue them a hero. Although I'm not sure why he went into the house instead of letting the police do it. That sounds ill-advised, even if its brave.
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Re: Guy rescues kidnap victims while eating Mcdonalds

Post by ThatOneCatC »

I haven't heard that he actually ever entered the house. Just helped one of the victims kick the shit out of the door to open it enough for her to get out. She then had him call the police who actually entered an found the others.
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Re: Guy rescues kidnap victims while eating Mcdonalds

Post by Korto »

Firstly, as far as my reading goes, he didn't go into the house. He and someone else kicked the bottom out of the door, and the girl crawled out. Not that that any makes any difference.

Secondly, he knew the kidnappers.
Explaining that he had no idea Ariel Castro, his neighbor, may have had other people inside his home, Ramsey said, "I've been here a year. You see where I'm coming from? I barbecue with this dude. We eat ribs and whatnot and listen to salsa music...
That's not something that inspires terror of Rambo wanna-be's with a secret arsenal in the backyard bunker.

He went up there to investigate some strange woman's problem. Good for him. Then when he got there, he first thought it was a domestic, but being there he couldn't hear any indications of guns or the men involved being around, and she would have told him if otherwise (is the assumption you'd run on). By this stage, you'd have to be a coward to leave her, and he's no coward (and a coward probably wouldn't have gone up to investigate in the first place).
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Re: Guy rescues kidnap victims while eating Mcdonalds

Post by Mr Bean »

Here is a link to the 911 audio that's already leaked.

Two things
1. McDonalds get's mentioned again
2. It's just as a good as his interview.

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Re: Guy rescues kidnap victims while eating Mcdonalds

Post by Broomstick »

Korto wrote:On another note, the overuse of the label "Hero". To me, Charles Ramsey is not a hero. He's a good citizen, and someone who showed he cared about others. Deserves some kind of citizenship award. But a hero is someone who puts their life in real (immediate) danger when they had a choice.
If it makes you feel better, on the broadcast news conferences the Cleveland police have said over and over that Amanda Berry "is the real hero". And she is - she rescued herself and three other people from some obviously bad people.
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Re: Guy rescues kidnap victims while eating Mcdonalds

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Well i'm waiting for McD' to capatalize on this the black guy who broke down the door was eating McDonalds take out, One of the three brothers got called in by McDonalds staff, and one of the women was abducted from a Burger King parking Lot...
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Re: Cleveland's three Monsters of Amstetten.

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

These girls were all lower class types too
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Re: Guy rescues kidnap victims while eating Mcdonalds

Post by Korto »

Broomstick wrote:If it makes you feel better, on the broadcast news conferences the Cleveland police have said over and over that Amanda Berry "is the real hero". And she is - she rescued herself and three other people from some obviously bad people.
Yes. That is, to me, a heroic act. Trying something like that puts herself in the line for punishment if she gets caught, by three men with great power over her. She could have just hunkered down and done nothing. She already knew the status quo wasn't going to kill her.
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