Zimmerman Trial for Trayvon Martin

[Havok]

Not only that, but the damage to his head is actually inconsistent with repeated beatings into the ground, which would've caused much more damage and the paramedics would've required him to undergo immediate hospitalisation in case of brain injury. It's significantly more consistent with a single fall to the ground rather than being mounted and beaten.

Yeah, this whole part is fucking bullshit. Let's just say that hypothetically I have beaten someone's head into the ground.
If someone is angry and doing this to you, you aren't walking around on your own right after it happens. Your face swells up like a fucking balloon and you aren't giving lie detector interviews. I've seen what Zimmerman looked like that night, hours after the so called beating. That isn't what that "life threatening" beating should look like. It's barely more than what one punch looks like.

The other part that strikes me as way fucking odd is that fact that this guy calls the cops for help when an old lady sneezes suspiciously in his direction, by his own (lying) admission called for help 50 times while he was being beaten, (seriously, yell for help 50 times) but then all of a sudden refuses help when the paramedics want to take him to the hospital?

You also find more than one abrasion on one knuckle of the fists of the person who is doing the punching.

I don't know what Zimmerman's mental state is, but from the facts that I have read, it would strike me as shaky at best and I wouldn't be surprised at all if it comes out that he punched himself or even hit his own head on the ground to make everything seem worse. Even if he didn't and based on his injuries from the photos, this guy at best overreacted by about 50 miles (surprise surprise) and at worst may actually try this again now that he knows he can get away with it by only taking a few hits.

[Kon_El]

Zimmerman's story doesn't hold up without SYG. Pictures of Trayvon's body on the ground show him still holding a bag with skittles and iced tea in one hand. If Zimmerman couldn't disengage from a guy holding convenience store groceries in one hand, then that's a really low standard for duty to retreat.

Source? While I could find mention of this, the only images I could find show him empty handed.

The bag was in his left hand, which is mostly hidden behind his body in the images commonly circulated. I'm looking for the one not taken from his right side, which shows the bag more clearly.

Looks like a latex glove to me. Is there any police documentation of this?

[Havok]

The pictures I saw, other than some horribly funny "I wold kill for some skittles right now" memes, showed the bag behind a pole, but not near the body. The picture with the yellow plastic cover is a latex glove on the left side of the body.

[TheHammer]

Not only that, but the damage to his head is actually inconsistent with repeated beatings into the ground, which would've caused much more damage and the paramedics would've required him to undergo immediate hospitalisation in case of brain injury. It's significantly more consistent with a single fall to the ground rather than being mounted and beaten.

Yeah, this whole part is fucking bullshit. Let's just say that hypothetically I have beaten someone's head into the ground.
If someone is angry and doing this to you, you aren't walking around on your own right after it happens. Your face swells up like a fucking balloon and you aren't giving lie detector interviews. I've seen what Zimmerman looked like that night, hours after the so called beating. That isn't what that "life threatening" beating should look like. It's barely more than what one punch looks like.

The other part that strikes me as way fucking odd is that fact that this guy calls the cops for help when an old lady sneezes suspiciously in his direction, by his own (lying) admission called for help 50 times while he was being beaten, (seriously, yell for help 50 times) but then all of a sudden refuses help when the paramedics want to take him to the hospital?

You also find more than one abrasion on one knuckle of the fists of the person who is doing the punching.

I don't know what Zimmerman's mental state is, but from the facts that I have read, it would strike me as shaky at best and I wouldn't be surprised at all if it comes out that he punched himself or even hit his own head on the ground to make everything seem worse. Even if he didn't and based on his injuries from the photos, this guy at best overreacted by about 50 miles (surprise surprise) and at worst may actually try this again now that he knows he can get away with it by only taking a few hits.

If the supposed consensus is that Zimmerman's injuries "weren't that severe", I have to wonder why the prosecution didn't focus on that fact and characterize this as Zimmerman taking a gun to a fist fight. I can only conclude that the contention "weren't that severe" is rather subjective and that they knew the defense could produce several experts to counter that assertion. On the other hand, it could also be because the defense downplayed the injuries and instead went down the path that Martin "saw and went for" Zimmerman's gun at somet point during the fight.

As to the second aspect, it is certainly possible Zimmerman inflicted the injuries on himself. But if he did so, he was extremely lucky that there were no eye witnesses to dispute his side of events. If there were, then he was fucked because the Jury was looking for something, anything, credible to convict him on. So I find it highly unlikely we'd ever see him try this again.

[Meest]

It probably was the defense laws that made it hard for the prosecution to admit Trayvon might have been the initial aggressor, no matter what the severity if he started it, it allows in a bunch of exceptions. The tiny dots on Zimmerman's nose always made me think the recoil from the gun made the hammer and rear sights hit his nose. It seems like they really forgot a lot of the early testimony, one witness said Zimmerman was holding his head and pacing back and forth to the trash bin, is that just hysteric pacing or him doing something more like thinking and implementing his cover story. But of course impossible to prove but with how this jury ended I think the prosecution shitting all over the defense theories could have helped, sure it's reasonable doubt but don't let the defense story take precedence. More realistically yes they should have really pointed out that it was probably only 1 punched that floored Zimmerman and he went into full pussy panic.

They should have really hammered the point that Zimmerman himself only admits he was fearful once Trayvon allegedly sees and goes for the gun which was impossible at that point, the prosecutors only mention that on the final day and they did it with some lame dramatic, "how can he reach the gun!" then rest their case, they should have slowly meticulously explained that, not "we leave it up to you jury" theatrics.

[davidutlib]

As to the second aspect, it is certainly possible Zimmerman inflicted the injuries on himself. But if he did so, he was extremely lucky that there were no eye witnesses to dispute his side of events.

This. Also, when Chris Serino first questioned GZ, he basically bluffed him by telling GZ that someone caught the incident on video. Zimmerman's response? "Thank God, I was hoping someone would video it", or words to that effect. Not really the response one would get from someone guilty of murder.

[Raw Shark]

As to the second aspect, it is certainly possible Zimmerman inflicted the injuries on himself. But if he did so, he was extremely lucky that there were no eye witnesses to dispute his side of events.

This. Also, when Chris Serino first questioned GZ, he basically bluffed him by telling GZ that someone caught the incident on video. Zimmerman's response? "Thank God, I was hoping someone would video it", or words to that effect. Not really the response one would get from someone guilty of murder.

Unless that someone is a very talented liar who thinks fast on his feet and is no stranger to dealing with the cops, eg: some of the descriptions of George Zimmerman given by past associates. Presented with a claim that there is video of you murdering somebody, you are either a) Being bullshitted, b) In the same position you were because the video doesn't clearly show your guilt, or c) Totally fucked because the video incriminates you. The "Thank God" response is strongly to your advantage in the first two cases, and cannot hurt you in the last.

[Meest]

As to the second aspect, it is certainly possible Zimmerman inflicted the injuries on himself. But if he did so, he was extremely lucky that there were no eye witnesses to dispute his side of events.

This. Also, when Chris Serino first questioned GZ, he basically bluffed him by telling GZ that someone caught the incident on video. Zimmerman's response? "Thank God, I was hoping someone would video it", or words to that effect. Not really the response one would get from someone guilty of murder.

Unless that someone is a very talented liar who thinks fast on his feet and is no stranger to dealing with the cops, eg: some of the descriptions of George Zimmerman given by past associates. Presented with a claim that there is video of you murdering somebody, you are either a) Being bullshitted, b) In the same position you were because the video doesn't clearly show your guilt, or c) Totally fucked because the video incriminates you. The "Thank God" response is strongly to your advantage in the first two cases, and cannot hurt you in the last.

He knew the cameras weren't working, knowledge he had from being the neighbourhood watch leader. It was a quick blurb in the trial, it was mentioned at one of the meetings and no one protested that statement. So that outburst is just another example of him turning things to make himself look better/innocent.

[davidutlib]

So, the fact that Serino -- the trained investigator who interviewed Zimmerman - basically believed Zimmerman's account is inconsequential to you? Sure, GZ COULD have been lying, and Chris Serino COULD have been taken in by it. But it seems to me that the belief of a trained investigator is a bit more credible than the "could have" theories of a bunch of people on a message board. Appeal to authority? Perhaps, but then again, we do the same thing in the judicial system - we call them expert witnesses.

[TheHammer]

Unless that someone is a very talented liar who thinks fast on his feet and is no stranger to dealing with the cops, eg: some of the descriptions of George Zimmerman given by past associates. Presented with a claim that there is video of you murdering somebody, you are either a) Being bullshitted, b) In the same position you were because the video doesn't clearly show your guilt, or c) Totally fucked because the video incriminates you. The "Thank God" response is strongly to your advantage in the first two cases, and cannot hurt you in the last.

He knew the cameras weren't working, knowledge he had from being the neighbourhood watch leader. It was a quick blurb in the trial, it was mentioned at one of the meetings and no one protested that statement. So that outburst is just another example of him turning things to make himself look better/innocent.

As I recall, the investigator's bluff was that it was Trayvon's cell phone that recorded it, his knowledge via Neighborhood watch is inconsequential. Not to mention that calling the 911 on a guy you were planning to shoot would be rather stupid. The police could have shown up at any point prior to this. Further, this was in the middle of a neighborhood. There is no way he could have accounted for no one seeing him or possibly recording him. I haven't seen any evidence that GZ was some sort of criminal mastermind, or fantastic liar.

This situation absolutely needed to be investigated. And it was. Conspiracy theories may still abound, but given the fact that the state was unable to find any evidence to prove otherwise, it seems most likely that Zimmerman's account of events are more or less what happened. Considering that Martin had no marks or apparent injury on his face or body would seem to support the contention that he swung first. It's possible Zimmerman wasn't really in a life threatening situation, but it's at least as likely that he was.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

This situation absolutely needed to be investigated. And it was. Conspiracy theories may still abound, but given the fact that the state was unable to find any evidence to prove otherwise, it seems most likely that Zimmerman's account of events are more or less what happened. Considering that Martin had no marks or apparent injury on his face or body would seem to support the contention that he swung first. It's possible Zimmerman wasn't really in a life threatening situation, but it's at least as likely that he was.

Remember when all this evidence for Zimmerman's story being bullshit was posted right in this thread in response to your last post? Are you going to address that at all or are you just going to keep going, repeating yourself as if it never happened?

[davidutlib]

I think the word "evidence" means something different than you think it does. If there was evidence that Zimmerman was lying, it would have been used at his trial. So either the evidence doesn't exist, or the evidence that does exist supports GZ's story or AT LEAST lends itself to reasonable doubt. Right?

[Purple]

I think the word "evidence" means something different than you think it does. If there was evidence that Zimmerman was lying, it would have been used at his trial. So either the evidence doesn't exist, or the evidence that does exist supports GZ's story or AT LEAST lends itself to reasonable doubt. Right?

Just because something was not used in court does not mean it can not be used as evidence regarding discussions of the subject ever again in the future.

[davidutlib]

Sure, but the fact it wasn't used in Court makes me doubt it's value as evidence.

[TheHammer]

This situation absolutely needed to be investigated. And it was. Conspiracy theories may still abound, but given the fact that the state was unable to find any evidence to prove otherwise, it seems most likely that Zimmerman's account of events are more or less what happened. Considering that Martin had no marks or apparent injury on his face or body would seem to support the contention that he swung first. It's possible Zimmerman wasn't really in a life threatening situation, but it's at least as likely that he was.

Remember when all this evidence for Zimmerman's story being bullshit was posted right in this thread in response to your last post? Are you going to address that at all or are you just going to keep going, repeating yourself as if it never happened?

What evidence? I've seen plenty of conjecture, very little in the way of evidence.

[Raw Shark]

I think the word "evidence" means something different than you think it does. If there was evidence that Zimmerman was lying, it would have been used at his trial. So either the evidence doesn't exist, or the evidence that does exist supports GZ's story or AT LEAST lends itself to reasonable doubt. Right?

For the record, I agree that there was reasonable doubt in this case and probably would've held my nose and voted that way if I was on the jury, despite my personal opinion that Zimmerman is very likely a complete piece of wannabe-authority-figure shit and guilty as hell. I'm just saying that the "Thank God!" comment is the smart thing to do in the situation he did it in.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

This situation absolutely needed to be investigated. And it was. Conspiracy theories may still abound, but given the fact that the state was unable to find any evidence to prove otherwise, it seems most likely that Zimmerman's account of events are more or less what happened. Considering that Martin had no marks or apparent injury on his face or body would seem to support the contention that he swung first. It's possible Zimmerman wasn't really in a life threatening situation, but it's at least as likely that he was.

Remember when all this evidence for Zimmerman's story being bullshit was posted right in this thread in response to your last post? Are you going to address that at all or are you just going to keep going, repeating yourself as if it never happened?

What evidence? I've seen plenty of conjecture, very little in the way of evidence.

That if he were beaten into the pavement like he said happened then A: he would look vastly different and B: the EMTs would be in jail now for mishandling the situation so poorly. It is almost literally impossible for his version of the events to hold up, so calling it "at least as likely" is disingenuous at best, patently dishonest if we're not mincing words.

It's entirely possible that Zimmerman thought he was in danger. But the situation pretty much cannot be as he says it was.

[davidutlib]

That if he were beaten into the pavement like he said happened then A: he would look vastly different and B: the EMTs would be in jail now for mishandling the situation so poorly. It is almost literally impossible for his version of the events to hold up, so calling it "at least as likely" is disingenuous at best, patently dishonest if we're not mincing words.

It's entirely possible that Zimmerman thought he was in danger. But the situation pretty much cannot be as he says it was.

Yes, and the evidence for your point is so airtight that the prosecution did an outstanding job of bringing it up and convincing the jury.

Oh, wait. They didn't.

While you are certainly entitled to your opinion, the argument that the jury made a mistake in acquitting Zimmerman is about as relevant as the argument the SCOTUS made a mistake in decided Roe v. Wade, or, if you want me to be politically balanced, the Affordable Care Act case. You can bandy about arguments that you feel help support your position, but they are completely irrelevant because that just isn't how reality went.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

I'm not sure if you think I'm arguing that Zimmerman was found guilty in a court of law? I know very well both that he was found not guilty and that the charges pushed are probably not something that could've been found even ignoring any incompetence in the prosecution due to the very nature of this Stand Your Ground law.

The point I'm trying to argue is that Zimmerman's story is an impossible fabrication and that anyone pushing it as "at least as likely" as a story that doesn't include a magical beating that leaves no more damage than a single blow and is not treated by the medical staff that is legally required to do so in the situation of sustained head trauma.

[davidutlib]

Well, first of all, Zimmerman's case was won based on a standard Self Defense claim, NOT Florida's Stand Your Ground law.

Secondly, Zimmerman's story is not an "impossible fabrication". If that was the case, he would have been charged with murder immediately, the lead investigator wouldn't have believed his story, and the prosecution would have been able to put on a much better case.

It isn't that Zimmerman's story didn't have possible holes in it -- it's that note only did the investigating officer BELIEVE HIS STORY, it's also that the prosecution changed their theory of the case repeatedly, and it's that Angela Corey declined to pursue a Grand Jury indictment (which is oddly not a violation of Zimmerman's 5th Amendment rights as that hasn't yet been incorporated against the States, but I digress) which would almost certainly have resulted in a no-bill. The prosecution didn't know what the FUCK was going on, except that they were up political shit creek if they didn't charge GZ with something.

It's a good thing Florida is protected by Sovereign Immunity, because otherwise, George Zimmerman would have a pretty easy path to bankrupting the State in a civil suit for what they did to him.

[Kon_El]

That if he were beaten into the pavement like he said happened then A: he would look vastly different and B: the EMTs would be in jail now for mishandling the situation so poorly. It is almost literally impossible for his version of the events to hold up, so calling it "at least as likely" is disingenuous at best, patently dishonest if we're not mincing words.

It's entirely possible that Zimmerman thought he was in danger. But the situation pretty much cannot be as he says it was.

I have seen this posted here and on many other sites and I just don't see it. Am I the only one who has ever watched a UFC fight? I have seen dozens of fights stopped after a ground and pound where the loser looked no worse than Zimmerman. The danger with blows to the head aren't the wounds on the surface. It's the trauma to the brain caused my the impacts, the disorientation that leaves you defenseless, damage you can't see.

[NeoGoomba]

The octagon in UFC has a smooth, polished surface. It won't cause the kind of outward scrapes, abrasions, and damage (for lack of a better word) that a sidewalk, pavement, or other coarse surface will upon impact, which is what I believe people are talking about.

[Patroklos]

Zimmerman did have rather rough abrasions on the back of his head. However since you are bashing a head ringt into it as opposed to dragging it across the surface the relatively mild roughness of a typical sidwalk isn't going to yield very different results than a UFC fighting surface for that reason.

Does a UFC fighting stage have a bit of give like a wrestling stage?

[NeoGoomba]

From what I've heard/seen, it's a (very) heavy canvas mat. So in theory it should have SOME give, like a mat used in gym class. They paint it with some type of finish so it can get a little slick once fighters start sweating on it. It doesn't have anywhere near the give of a WWF ring.

EDIT - upon reflection my initial use of the term "polished" now seems a little off

[TheHammer]

I'm not sure if you think I'm arguing that Zimmerman was found guilty in a court of law? I know very well both that he was found not guilty and that the charges pushed are probably not something that could've been found even ignoring any incompetence in the prosecution due to the very nature of this Stand Your Ground law.

The point I'm trying to argue is that Zimmerman's story is an impossible fabrication and that anyone pushing it as "at least as likely" as a story that doesn't include a magical beating that leaves no more damage than a single blow and is not treated by the medical staff that is legally required to do so in the situation of sustained head trauma.

The point is, if the photos and fact that he didn't seek medical attention were evidence that his injuries "weren't that severe" or "weren't consistent with" his story as to how the fight went down, why was it not brought up by the prosecution? Surely that would be the most obvious angle to take, that Zimmerman's story of how the fight went down was false and that he wasn't in any real danger and his injuries show it. So why wouldn't they have done so?

The most logical answer is that the evidence regarding injuries he sustained were at best inconclusive as to whether or not his account of events was true. They likely showed these injuries to a dozen medical experts and got a dozen different opinions. They also likely knew that for every medical witness they produced, the defense would be able to find one to contend the opposite was true. That's what I mean when I say we've seen plenty of conjecture, but little in the way of evidence.

From Zimmerman's perspective, I'd argue that the reason I didn't suffer severe injury was because I took the action that I did. If someone is trying to bash your head into the ground, and you're still conscious, you aren't going to simply allow them to do so. You'll squirm and struggle to make that difficult, and thus will to an extent negate some of the damage that could have been done from someone taking an unconscious person and bashing their head into the ground. Maybe the first attempt you resist enough that it's only a glancing blow resulting in scrapes to the back of your head. Maybe you continue to fight and resist a second time. But you might also realize that in the position you're in, you can only put up a fight for so long before you attacker does succeed in REALLY bashing your skull against the pavement if you don't do something.

To be clear, I'm not saying that I know that Zimmerman is innocent. I just don't see how so many can be certain he is guilty.