McDonalds helps it's employees budget! (Irony)

[AniThyng]

I wouldn't call it jealousy. Let's put it this way. I put in all sorts of effort at my current job to get (what I consider) to be a fair wage for my work. If someone can perform far less skilled labor and get paid the same, how is that fair? I agree that a minimum wage should ideally provide a livable income, but at the same time, a wage should reflect the amount of skill, education, intelligence, and effort that goes into the job. Unlike the fat cat millionaire managers you mentioned, both the burger-flipper and I work for a living. I just think the difference in pay rates should reflect the types of jobs we do.

That is the point you decide to go and do the "far less skilled" job and wait for your former employer to come begging you to come back at a higher wage - if they do not, then welcome to the harsh reality that your skills are useful for earning a living only to the extent that someone is willing to pay you for it. If they refuse to pay enough (for you) and you can earn the same working at a job that you consider beneath you, well too bad! Fairness has nothing to do with it. And frankly if you are being paid only $3 dollars more to work in a technical role compared to at a McDonald's I think you might be seriously overstating your level of technical skill?

That being said I bet you find people who get promoted from the floor to management and actually take their job seriously rapidly realize that there is a reason management is paid more, and that is not just because managers elect to pay themselves more for shit and giggles.

[Borgholio]

Your privilge, it reeks.

Your reading, it sucks. I specifically said that they SHOULD be allowed to earn a living wage. I *AGREE* that they should earn more than they currently get paid. But I also voiced a concern that if the minimum wage increases, the relative value of what used to be considered "high wage" jobs or "skilled labor" goes down. It has nothing to do with ego. What, do you think if the minimum wage jumped to $15 that I'd suddenly quit my job? Hell no. I do like my job. The point is that for so many years, people have been touting an education as the path to a larger income. It would no longer be worth it. 2 - 4 years of college, $15,000 - $40,000 in tuition for...what....$3 per hour more? Is that really worth it?

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

Breaking the perceived need to take higher education in order to get a livable wage (and then turning around and saying that said education doesn't count since you need ~real experience~) would be a good thing, too. One of the reasons for the massive spikes in tuition is that it's almost seen as mandatory to go to university if you can.

[Borgholio]

I wouldn't call it jealousy. Let's put it this way. I put in all sorts of effort at my current job to get (what I consider) to be a fair wage for my work. If someone can perform far less skilled labor and get paid the same, how is that fair? I agree that a minimum wage should ideally provide a livable income, but at the same time, a wage should reflect the amount of skill, education, intelligence, and effort that goes into the job. Unlike the fat cat millionaire managers you mentioned, both the burger-flipper and I work for a living. I just think the difference in pay rates should reflect the types of jobs we do.

This line of argument assumes that a raise in unskilled wages to $15 / hr would have no effect on technicians' ability to negotiate a wage higher than $18 / hr, which is now close to the minimum (and both of which are far lower than in the past on an inflation-adjusted basis). The assumption strikes me as ridiculous.

We're talking corporate greed here. I can see a good portion of Corporate America raising wages a smidgen for PR purposes, but not by the same jump as the minimum wage. How many places would actually agree to double what they pay their employees if they're not forced by the government?

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

Even if it does end up getting exploited such that only the minimum wage itself rises and nothing else on the low end goes up, that's still a good thing. If you make a little less, relatively, that's one thing, but currently people are in unlivable poverty unless they work two separate jobs, which often isn't an option. Even if it's slightly worse for you and people like you, it's much better for people who are making much less than you at the moment.

[Borgholio]

Well I wouldn't say it's worse. I mean it wouldn't be like my pay actually goes down, and yeah it's better for those on the bottom rung of the corporate ladder. So I would never oppose a higher minimum wage, just because I would want my wages to go up by the same percentage.

[Zaune]

2 - 4 years of college, $15,000 - $40,000 in tuition for...what....$3 per hour more? Is that really worth it?

So either make higher education less expensive or do something to discourage employers from demanding a college degree as the bare minimum for an entry-level position without a good reason.

[K. A. Pital]

Is education really an "effort", or is that a possibility given to you by society? I mean, yes, not in America where you pay for it out of your own pocket, which creates a sense of privately earned education, but in other nations education is free - like an investment into future social potential.

Education is fun, useful for a myriad other things than work, it enriches your life as it is. I think uneducated people should not be forced into an underclass - we should encourage education by making it more acceptable, but we should not penalize a lack of education. Receiving education the classic, full-day classes way is extremely time-consuming - for many people locked in wage slavery it is simply not accessible.

[Borgholio]

or do something to discourage employers from demanding a college degree as the bare minimum for an entry-level position without a good reason.

Ain't that the truth. My wife is looking for a new job and I've been helping her scour Monster and Careerbuilder. This one place that she'd love to work at is an auto insurance company and they're seeking an appraiser (which she is qualified for). Thing is, they require a 4-year degree or they won't even interview you. Not only that, they don't care what the degree is for. You'd think an insurance company would want someone who has taken classes in mathematics, engineering, business...things like that. But no, they just want you to have a degree...period...even if it's a fucking degree in agriculture.

[Lagmonster]

I love education, but for the 'degrees are necessary' trend, I largely blame the 80s. Before then, it wasn't a bad thing to have a trade, or work service, and nobody felt like a failure for not going to college. But nowadays every-fucking-one goes to college, even if they obviously shouldn't, and to make matters worse, you can totally get a degree in bullshit if you're willing to pay for it and can keep your eyes uncrossed for four years.

There are other reasons, as well. For example, about ten years ago, several groups of government professionals (and I will not point fingers, but this really happened) wanted more money. So they argued that their job was really hard, so they deserved more money. One of the easiest ways of demonstrating that your job is worth more money is to say that it's just too gosh-darn hard to do if you don't have a post-secondary school education (like doctors, but in this case for administrative jobs). The result was that these particular professions now have a) disproportionately high pay compared to their private sector counterparts, and b) cannot be entered into without a degree (in anything, even basket weaving), despite the fact that comparable private-sector jobs don't require said degree. Oh, and the problem of employees who were ALREADY in the position, but didn't in fact have degrees (which was a lot of them)? Of COURSE they didn't suddenly all have to go back to school. They were "grandfathered in based on experience".

So if you want to know why what should be an entry level job demands a degree, there could be many reasons. For example, the people who had the job before you might have been perfectly willing to throw you under the bus for a pay hike.

Edit: Also, fuck the guy who dismissed degrees in Agriculture. Agriculture contains a plethora of good careers.

[Borgholio]

Edit: Also, fuck the guy who dismissed degrees in Agriculture. Agriculture contains a plethora of good careers.

I didn't dismiss it. I used it as an example of a degree that is fucking worthless when applied to a job such as automotive collision damage appraisal.

[Simon_Jester]

I think... I think part of the problem is that when we started sending everyone in the middle and much of the lower class to college, college became sort of an "idiot screening" process. There are a lot of people who don't finish a four year degree for some reason, but one all-too-common reason is "I am so chronically irresponsible or ignorant or short-sighted that I can't stay afloat in college."

There are people like that, no organization wants to hire them. Especially in white collar workplaces where actually getting anything done depends on people being supportive, prepared, and creating a distraction-free environment where you can get your paperwork done without some jackass playing loud music, or people getting into a shouting match over the football game.

So they use the four year diploma as a proxy for "Can you devote a significant chunk of your time and energy to actually using your brain effectively, over a sustained period of time? Can you do it without getting kicked out of the institution for disgraceful conduct? Do you at least understand the importance of concepts like "doing your homework" and "showing up prepared" which are important in academia? Even if you don't always do them, are you at least able to grasp what is wrong, and learn from the screwup, if you make a mistake because you failed to do so? Can you, in short, act like a professional if your career depends on it?"

It's not perfect. It's a long damn way from perfect, for many obvious reasons. And a four year degree is a stupidly expensive way to get a substitute for character references. Sigh.

[xthetenth]

Edit: Also, fuck the guy who dismissed degrees in Agriculture. Agriculture contains a plethora of good careers.

I didn't dismiss it. I used it as an example of a degree that is fucking worthless when applied to a job such as automotive collision damage appraisal.

I wouldn't be surprised if agriculture was a lot less useless than you'd think. Statistics would be pretty useful as a farmer for example, let alone someone running a larger farm, for starters.

[Borgholio]

I wouldn't be surprised if agriculture was a lot less useless than you'd think. Statistics would be pretty useful as a farmer for example, let alone someone running a larger farm, for starters.

Fair point. I see what you mean, I guess there are a fair few prerequisite courses that would be useful no matter what. It'd make more sense for the employer to require those specific classes as opposed to just saying "4 year degree or else...".