Satanists want monument at Oklahoma Statehouse

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Kitsune
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Satanists want monument at Oklahoma Statehouse

Post by Kitsune »

Going to enjoy the screams of anguish from religious conservatives
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/ ... story.html

Satanists seek spot on Oklahoma Statehouse steps

By Associated Press, Updated: Sunday, December 8, 11:06 AM

OKLAHOMA CITY — In their zeal to tout their faith in the public square, conservatives in Oklahoma may have unwittingly opened the door to a wide range of religious groups, including satanists who are seeking to put their own statue next to a Ten Commandments monument on the Statehouse steps.

The Republican-controlled Legislature in this state known as the buckle of the Bible Belt authorized the privately funded Ten Commandments monument in 2009, and it was placed on the Capitol grounds last year despite criticism from legal experts who questioned its constitutionality. The Oklahoma chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union has filed a lawsuit seeking its removal.

But the New York-based Satanic Temple saw an opportunity. It notified the state’s Capitol Preservation Commission that it wants to donate a monument and plans to submit one of several possible designs this month, said Lucien Greaves, a spokesman for the temple.

“We believe that all monuments should be in good taste and consistent with community standards,” Greaves wrote in letter to state officials. “Our proposed monument, as an homage to the historic/literary Satan, will certainly abide by these guidelines.”

Greaves said one potential design involves a pentagram, a satanic symbol, while another is meant to be an interactive display for children. He said he expects the monument, if approved by Oklahoma officials, would cost about $20,000.

Rep. Mike Ritze, R-Broken Arrow, who spearheaded the push for the Ten Commandments monument and whose family helped pay the $10,000 for its construction, declined to comment on the Satanic Temple’s effort, but Greaves credited Ritze for opening the door to the group’s proposal.

“He’s helping a satanic agenda grow more than any of us possibly could,” Greaves said. “You don’t walk around and see too many satanic temples around, but when you open the door to public spaces for us, that’s when you’re going to see us.”

The Oklahoma Legislature has taken other steps that many believe blur the line that divides church and state. The House speaker said he wants to build a chapel inside the Capitol to celebrate Oklahoma’s “Judeo-Christian heritage.” Several lawmakers have said they want to allow nativity scenes and other religious-themed symbols in public schools.

Rep. Bobby Cleveland, who plans to introduce a one such bill next year, said many Christians feel they are under attack as a result of political correctness. He dismissed the notion of Satanists erecting a monument at the Capitol.

“I think these Satanists are a different group,” Cleveland, R-Slaughterville, said. “You put them under the nut category.”

Brady Henderson, legal director for ACLU Oklahoma, said if state officials allow one type of religious expression, they must allow alternative forms of expression, although he said a better solution might be to allow none at all on state property.

“We would prefer to see Oklahoma’s government officials work to faithfully serve our communities and improve the lives of Oklahomans instead of erecting granite monuments to show us all how righteous they are,” Henderson said. “But if the Ten Commandments, with its overtly Christian message, is allowed to stay at the Capitol, the Satanic Temple’s proposed monument cannot be rejected because of its different religious viewpoint.”
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Re: Satanists want monument at Oklahoma Statehouse

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I support this only if it is as Metal as possible, I'm talking spikes, blood fountains and skulls... lots of skulls.

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Re: Satanists want monument at Oklahoma Statehouse

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Mr Bean wrote:I support this only if it is as Metal as possible, I'm talking spikes, blood fountains and skulls... lots of skulls.
Be much more fun that the Ten Commandments :twisted:
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Re: Satanists want monument at Oklahoma Statehouse

Post by Simon_Jester »

This may be amusing to someone annoyed by fundies' persistent attempts to undermine secular government, but anyone who expects this to make the situation better is wrong. It's going to completely fail to make the point to anyone who wanted the monument up in the first place, because their response is "well of course our religion is right, and theirs is wrong, so we should get a monument, and they shouldn't!"

Plus, they already think the secular agenda is promoted by devil-worshippers who want to undermine godliness, so when the same people who approve of the secular agenda react with amusement when devil-worshippers build a monument... again, they are not surprised, it fits perfectly well into a worldview in which they are right and you are hellspawn.

It would probably be more effective to try and get Quranical quotes posted; statuary is of course right out because of how Islam works.
Mr Bean wrote:I support this only if it is as Metal as possible, I'm talking spikes, blood fountains and skulls... lots of skulls.
Public sanitation forbids. Also, when you have skulls you have questions about who you got them from.
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Re: Satanists want monument at Oklahoma Statehouse

Post by LadyTevar »

A nice granite slab with quotes from Mohammed would look very nice across from the Ten Commandments, IMHO. The ones that say how to live a godly life would be a nice touch, as they echo and expand on the Ten Commandments.

A Satanic monument? Hmmm... the pentacle, Crowley's "As you will shall be the sum of the law" quote, maybe set it up with electricity to have a 'eternal flame'?
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Re: Satanists want monument at Oklahoma Statehouse

Post by bilateralrope »

Simon_Jester wrote:This may be amusing to someone annoyed by fundies' persistent attempts to undermine secular government, but anyone who expects this to make the situation better is wrong. It's going to completely fail to make the point to anyone who wanted the monument up in the first place, because their response is "well of course our religion is right, and theirs is wrong, so we should get a monument, and they shouldn't!"
This won't convince them. But if they refuse the Satanist monument while keeping the Ten Commandments, it's going to get really hard for them to argue that they are doing anything but treating their interpretation of Christianity differently to other religions. Which means that they will have problems in the ACLU lawsuit unless the judge there is also a fundie.
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Re: Satanists want monument at Oklahoma Statehouse

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No matter what you do, the Fundys will consider you working for the agenda of Satan
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Re: Satanists want monument at Oklahoma Statehouse

Post by Purple »

Kitsune wrote:No matter what you do, the Fundys will consider you working for the agenda of Satan
Well to be fair. It's kind of hard to argue against that point when the issue at hand is about putting up a satanist monument. :wink:
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Re: Satanists want monument at Oklahoma Statehouse

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

I'm all for this. I would also agree with Tev's idea about a Mohammed quotes monument, perhaps including whichever Quran quote it is specifically condemns racism. That would be a nice touch.
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Re: Satanists want monument at Oklahoma Statehouse

Post by Kitsune »

Purple wrote:
Kitsune wrote:No matter what you do, the Fundys will consider you working for the agenda of Satan
Well to be fair. It's kind of hard to argue against that point when the issue at hand is about putting up a satanist monument. :wink:
Don't foget that the ACLU supported Neo-Nazis in Skokie, IL
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Re: Satanists want monument at Oklahoma Statehouse

Post by Simon_Jester »

My problem is...

This issue won't go away until another 10-20% of the American population has been convinced. At the moment, we seem to have stalled out and there is little further effort to convince going on, on the secularist side.

So unless we want our grandkids to have the identical problem we have today, at some point we've got to figure out how to convince people that trying to religion-ize their secular legal spaces is a bad plan.
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Re: Satanists want monument at Oklahoma Statehouse

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How about then having situation where the entire law of the statehouse being covered by religious monuments so there is no grass left?
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Re: Satanists want monument at Oklahoma Statehouse

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Simon_Jester wrote:My problem is...

This issue won't go away until another 10-20% of the American population has been convinced. At the moment, we seem to have stalled out and there is little further effort to convince going on, on the secularist side.

So unless we want our grandkids to have the identical problem we have today, at some point we've got to figure out how to convince people that trying to religion-ize their secular legal spaces is a bad plan.
Or until they die. Which is going to happen more and more as the population ages and is replaced by younger, mostly less fundamentalist people.

Some people just aren't amenable to rational suasion, and it's a mistake to act like they are. Some people the best you can do is minimize their influence until they just go away.
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Re: Satanists want monument at Oklahoma Statehouse

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Ralin wrote:Or until they die. Which is going to happen more and more as the population ages and is replaced by younger, mostly less fundamentalist people.
Ralin, why do you think younger people are less fundamentalist about such matters in the first place? They become convinced, in their youth, of a different position.

The problem you're going to run into is that the people you seek to convince are in many cases still religious- they didn't stop believing in God just because they don't want the court system to run on theocratic lines. Explicitly making a mockery of the whole affair isn't going to convince them, it's going to confirm their existing childhood belief that you are a servant of evil.

This sort of thing is why (for example) abortion is still controversial in America even though it's been forty years since Roe v. Wade and most of the people who were voters then are now dead. A lot of people born after 1973 did not "come around" to the liberal point of view on abortion; on the contrary they were successfully convinced that abortion is infanticide.

So don't count on aging population demographics to fix a political problem for you, if your side in the debate isn't taking logical steps to ensure that it gets fixed in the first place.
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Re: Satanists want monument at Oklahoma Statehouse

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You don't do this sort of thing to convince fundies they're wrong. Anything you do will just convince them they're right. What you want to do is convince the rest of the world the fundies are nuts. Or a least set themselves up to look like jackasses.
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Re: Satanists want monument at Oklahoma Statehouse

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Incidentally, the Church of Satan just put up an article. It doesn't directly mention this particular stunt but I think the last two paragraphs make their official stance pretty clear.

Full article.
Satanism is a newer religion, having been concretized as a coherent philosophy and spread by a global organization beginning in 1966. We have been faced with prejudice and misunderstanding because Anton LaVey purposely chose an iconoclastic paradigm, but in the almost five decades of our existence we’ve made headway into being taken seriously by scholars, historians and certain aware segments of the general populace. We don’t want to undercut this success by going for “cheap shots” meant to garner quick publicity when such could make Satanism seem like a position that is just as offensive as the spiritual religions clamoring for unearned attention, part of their agenda of hijacking society for their own brief systems. We support the secularization of society as do many others who value reason and free thought. You who believe in Gods or Devils are free to embrace your own religions, just don’t force them on those of us who are not interested or actively find them to be repugnant.

Thus we do not endorse the idea of putting Satanic monuments, texts or images in public spaces. Rather than allowing a hodgepodge of competing theologies, most of which misrepresent fundamental American principles, we prefer that no religious iconography be used in these arenas. We have plenty of literature crafted by our Founding Fathers which accurately represents the conceptual foundations of the United States, and these are thoughts that should be promoted with pride, but more importantly, should also be understood, maintained, and employed towards maintaining a just society.
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Re: Satanists want monument at Oklahoma Statehouse

Post by Simon_Jester »

To be fair, if you label yourselves as "Satanists," you kind of have to expect that people will call you devil-worshippers. It says so on the label.
General Zod wrote:You don't do this sort of thing to convince fundies they're wrong.
No, you do it to convince their children that fundies are wrong.

Appearing reasonable, and not going out of your way to look like the boogeyman atheists their parents scared them with, help with convincing those children.
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Re: Satanists want monument at Oklahoma Statehouse

Post by Ahriman238 »

I'm all for it. Fair's fair, and we do have a law about favoring one religion over others. If it's okay to put up one religious symbol, it follows that all of them are acceptable and the Satanists have even agreed it must be in good taste, and were repaid by being dismissed as "nuts."

So yeah, that's the deal under American law. Let everyone show their symbols in public or no one. I personally prefer the former, but I'm not exacty greatly troubled by the latter.
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Re: Satanists want monument at Oklahoma Statehouse

Post by NeoGoomba »

I hope Deathklok plays at the unveiling.
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Re: Satanists want monument at Oklahoma Statehouse

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Simon_Jester wrote:No, you do it to convince their children that fundies are wrong.

Appearing reasonable, and not going out of your way to look like the boogeyman atheists their parents scared them with, help with convincing those children.
I think you're underestimating how much making the fundies look like hypocritical idiots does to convince said children that their parents are wrong. Mockery isn't just cathartic; it can have a serious influence on people watching an argument.
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