Pope is Time's Person of the Year - Seriously?

[K. A. Pital]

Time did not want to give it to Snowden.

In this case they're just... wrong.

Could you expand on why Snowden's impact is greater than that of Pope Francis?
By the same argument I'm seeing, Snowden hasn't changed the world because, well... there's not a lot of reaction. If we measure people by their reaction and discount anything we're not sure will stick, then Snowden releasing a lot of information on the NSA doesn't matter if it doesn't change the NSA's operations.

Snowden's files did have a global impact, and it is not just a certain religious denomination. He did not change the world, perhaps, just like Watergate did not really change the political system of the US, but certainly he tried very hard and put his life on the line.

Did Pope Francis put his life on the line?

[Irbis]

Snowden is on the Drudge at least once a week. The EU Parliament is looking to have him give some sort of deposition in regards to NSA spying on European governments and their leaders.

Wrong. Snowden did nothing. Echelon, Safe Harbor, and Prism are still up. EU parliament cowardly turned tail and handed Sakharov Prize for Freedom of Thought to someone else. Snowden is persona non grata in the whole civilized world. If not for the courage of the Guardian, we wouldn't even hear of him. His impact is so far storm in teacup, sadly.

In case you missed it, Pope not only challenged some doctrines of the Church, he also called the trickledown dogma unnecessary evil and openly backed improvement of the fate of endless refugees trying to get to Europe, making quite a lot of racist religious right wing politicians almost explode trying to explain that away. Even his non--religious message this year dwarfed (non)leadership of western politicians.

Did Pope Francis put his life on the line?

In a sense, yes, his attempts at fixing the Vatican Bank greatly angered quite a lot of people with a lot to lose and a lot of guns to call on. Add to this his insistence on reduced bodyguard and personal contact with pilgrims...

Hell, he even went and embraced/kissed several mortally ill people while trying to show he isn't above them. You can accuse him of a lot but not of a lack of courage.

[Siege]

It's completely ridiculous to even try and compare the pope with an NSA whistleblower. What are you measuring? 'Influence'? Influence on what? How are you measuring that? On what scale of time are you measuring it? Are you weighing the inertia of the veiled bureaucracy of the Roman Curia against the completely differently veiled bureaucracy of the US national security apparatus and/or the decision-making process of the European Union which is differently veiled yet again? And if so how are you doing it?

The sooner we all admit that this freaking obsession with end-of-year top 10 lists for most influential politicians, performers, 'opinion makers' or what-have-you is based on nothing but completely arbitrary assumptions, likes and dislikes, the better off we'll all be.

Here's how insane this discussion is. On September 16, 2013 a man killed twelve people in the Washington Naval Yard shooting. That man ended the lives of 12 people. Is that not more influential than the pope? I'm pretty sure the pope didn't cause twelve people to never do anything ever again on account of them being dead. Edward Snowden didn't cause dozens of people to experience a gaping existential hole in their lives where their father or daughter or husband used to be.

So how do you measure "who most affected the course of the year"? Most affected for whom? How are you measuring 'I now know the NSA is accruing worrying amounts of data about me' against 'my supreme religious leader is a decent person' or 'I'll never talk to my brother again on account of him having been killed by a murderer'?

Let's not pretend the Time 'person of the year' is anything but a meaningless tally of who generated the greatest number of headlines, filtered through what Time's editors and owners figured the public would accept so they'd buy their stupid magazine. And while we're at it let's not pretend there's something like a universal 'X person of the year' like it actually means something to the greater whole of humanity.

[mr friendly guy]

While the Nobel Peace Prize (which is a joke anyway), has criteria such that someone can win it for what they might do rather than what they have done (which makes the joke worse), I was under the impression that Time's person of the year worked by that person actually being the most influential to world events for that year. By this criteria OBL and Hitler were once person of the year. Thus wouldn't the person of the year had to have done something in 2013 (not 2014).

Thus its not quite like giving Obama a Nobel because the judges seem to be following its bullshit rules.

Does this apply to every aspect of the Nobel Prize or just the Peace prize? I have never hear the prize for Literature being given for someone who is going to write a book, never seen the prize for Medicine given to someone who just started their research into curing something.

You get what I mean, if this is an actual rule then it is a very rarely invoked rule that was pulled out to justify an award that should not have been given.

I was referring to the peace prize. I don't know enough about the others to make judgements, although I am aware of controversies in the sciences. Basically the Nobel prize doesn't have enough categories, and sometimes a scientist gets awarded a prize in a field for work which you might be hard press to fit into that category.

In regards to the Nobel's rules, IIRC that was one of their justification for giving it to Obama. They explicitly said, a Nobel can be given to someone in the hope they actually do something, rather than because they already have done something. So there you go.

[Replicant]

Snowden is on the Drudge at least once a week. The EU Parliament is looking to have him give some sort of deposition in regards to NSA spying on European governments and their leaders.

Wrong. Snowden did nothing. Echelon, Safe Harbor, and Prism are still up. EU parliament cowardly turned tail and handed Sakharov Prize for Freedom of Thought to someone else. Snowden is persona non grata in the whole civilized world. If not for the courage of the Guardian, we wouldn't even hear of him. His impact is so far storm in teacup, sadly.

In case you missed it, Pope not only challenged some doctrines of the Church, he also called the trickledown dogma unnecessary evil and openly backed improvement of the fate of endless refugees trying to get to Europe, making quite a lot of racist religious right wing politicians almost explode trying to explain that away. Even his non--religious message this year dwarfed (non)leadership of western politicians.

Did Pope Francis put his life on the line?

In a sense, yes, his attempts at fixing the Vatican Bank greatly angered quite a lot of people with a lot to lose and a lot of guns to call on. Add to this his insistence on reduced bodyguard and personal contact with pilgrims...

Hell, he even went and embraced/kissed several mortally ill people while trying to show he isn't above them. You can accuse him of a lot but not of a lack of courage.

LOL. I have seen it all now. Me thinks you play too many video games if your suggesting the pope put himself in mortal danger by attempting to fix a bank.

[PKRudeBoy]

Snowden is on the Drudge at least once a week. The EU Parliament is looking to have him give some sort of deposition in regards to NSA spying on European governments and their leaders.

Wrong. Snowden did nothing. Echelon, Safe Harbor, and Prism are still up. EU parliament cowardly turned tail and handed Sakharov Prize for Freedom of Thought to someone else. Snowden is persona non grata in the whole civilized world. If not for the courage of the Guardian, we wouldn't even hear of him. His impact is so far storm in teacup, sadly.

In case you missed it, Pope not only challenged some doctrines of the Church, he also called the trickledown dogma unnecessary evil and openly backed improvement of the fate of endless refugees trying to get to Europe, making quite a lot of racist religious right wing politicians almost explode trying to explain that away. Even his non--religious message this year dwarfed (non)leadership of western politicians.

Did Pope Francis put his life on the line?

In a sense, yes, his attempts at fixing the Vatican Bank greatly angered quite a lot of people with a lot to lose and a lot of guns to call on. Add to this his insistence on reduced bodyguard and personal contact with pilgrims...

Hell, he even went and embraced/kissed several mortally ill people while trying to show he isn't above them. You can accuse him of a lot but not of a lack of courage.

LOL. I have seen it all now. Me thinks you play too many video games if your suggesting the pope put himself in mortal danger by attempting to fix a bank.

Well, when that bank has a longstanding history with the mob, and numerous scandals about suspected money laundering, the stakes go up a bit. The last major scandal with the Vatican Bank left the chairman of a major partner bank hanging from Blackfriars Bridge, several other people connected dead, and the head of the Vatican Bank unable to leave Vatican City for several years due to outstanding warrants. The IOR is probably one of the least transparent and most corrupt financial institutions in the world.

[Metahive]

Sorry, but I'd wait with the lionization of the pope until he has stopped giving aid and shelter to a ring of kiddie-fiddlers. Until this has happened I will not count him among decent human beings.

[Simon_Jester]

Here's how insane this discussion is. On September 16, 2013 a man killed twelve people in the Washington Naval Yard shooting. That man ended the lives of 12 people. Is that not more influential than the pope? I'm pretty sure the pope didn't cause twelve people to never do anything ever again on account of them being dead. Edward Snowden didn't cause dozens of people to experience a gaping existential hole in their lives where their father or daughter or husband used to be.

I don't know about Snowden, but it seems very likely that in the long haul, Francis's actions may cause the Catholic Church to focus more on charity and potentially save (or at least totally refurbish and restore) many dozens, even hundreds or thousands of lives.

[LadyTevar]

Nobel Peace Prize =/= Time Person of the Year. Stop comparing Apples to Oranges.

As many have said, Time's Person of the Year is a popularity contest, and better compared to The Top 100 Songs of the Year, the Grammies, or any of the other Award Shows for Film, TV, etc. It is a choice made by a small group of people based on opinon of a subject's effects on the public in a single year.

The Nobels, while similar in process, have a far more stringant value, as the majority of prizes award actual Science.

So me I have no problem with Pope Frances being named Person of the Year. He has been in the news, but for Good Reasons: taking over the Papacy after controversy, living as pious a life as a lay-priest in Rome can, giving hope and money to the downtrodden, and most of all being a Good Christian in a time when Christianity as a whole has a bad name.

[Melchior]

LOL. I have seen it all now. Me thinks you play too many video games if your suggesting the pope put himself in mortal danger by attempting to fix a bank.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Calvi - it's entirely believable that the previous pope stepped down because he didn't want to deal with that kind of people. That having been said the current pope isn't probably in much danger of assassination: he was chosen quickly, which means that he probably has the backing of a solid majority of the cardinals (and they knew perfectly who they were electing).

[Spoonist]

The Nobels, while similar in process, have a far more stringant value, as the majority of prizes award actual Science.

Please also note that the peace price does not have the same stringent selection critieria than the more scientific ones. The peace price committee is politically appointed by the Norwegian parliament. It is infamous for being the pension for ex-ministers of the current ruling parties.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Nobel_Committee

[Dr. Trainwreck]

That having been said the current pope isn't probably in much danger of assassination: he was chosen quickly, which means that he probably has the backing of a solid majority of the cardinals (and they knew perfectly who they were electing).

This implies, rather awfully, that Francis is just a well received publicity stunt.

As for the Snowden discussion I'd say something, but as usual Siege already got it fucking right.

[mr friendly guy]

The Nobels, while similar in process, have a far more stringant value, as the majority of prizes award actual Science.

Please also note that the peace price does not have the same stringent selection critieria than the more scientific ones. The peace price committee is politically appointed by the Norwegian parliament. It is infamous for being the pension for ex-ministers of the current ruling parties.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Nobel_Committee

Well the committee did award a peace prize to

a) a terrorist

b) a statesman whose policy of bombing lead to thousands of deaths

c) a politician who didn't do anything yet ( and turned out to violate human rights after he was awarded)

d) someone who made a nice if alarmist film

e) a religious leader whose peace plan includes mass expulsions of millions of people from surrounding areas to make way for his little big kingdom. But its leaders will be democratically elected in the peace plan, so its totally cool.

f) an essayist whose writings state that only by adopting a Western way of life can you truly be human. Which I guess is why he hand waved away US atrocities in Vietnam and praised George W Bush for his invasion of Iraq. They didn't choose to be human you see. But he hates people we hate, so its ok.

So yeah I agree. Totally stringent criteria for what constitutes "peace".

Cookie for those who can guess who a to f are.

[Melchior]

This implies, rather awfully, that Francis is just a well received publicity stunt.

It's more like a strategic repositioning; I think that they are institutionally aware at some level of their church risking future irrelevance in the western world and finally resolved to do something when confronted with the fact that "traditional values" dog-whistling on abortion and sexual mores definitely stopped working on any meaningful scale.

[Irbis]

LOL. I have seen it all now. Me thinks you play too many video games if your suggesting the pope put himself in mortal danger by attempting to fix a bank.

How old are you, imbecile? Twelve? Italian crime cartels happen to be one of the biggest and wealthiest in the world. Their threat is not imagined - they kill hundreds yearly for less than throwing a shovelful of sand into their financial workings. Fuck, someone can get best security in the world and still die if mafia wants it, courtesy of half ton bomb blowing the whole countryside to bits.

Please, do educate yourself on something before you start using ignorant leetspeak, ok?

Also, in case you didn't heard, previous Pope trying the same reforms died in mysterious circumstances after just a month in office 35 years ago. Yes, trying to upset the balance of several powerful entreched organizations at once is just as safe in real life as it is in video game. Grow up.

That having been said the current pope isn't probably in much danger of assassination: he was chosen quickly, which means that he probably has the backing of a solid majority of the cardinals (and they knew perfectly who they were electing).

So did John Paul I and it didn't helped him one bit. Camorra or Cosa Nostra shown time and again they don't care for independent minded priests, like this one.

[Civil War Man]

Also, in case you didn't heard, previous Pope trying the same reforms died in mysterious circumstances after just a month in office 35 years ago. Yes, trying to upset the balance of several powerful entreched organizations at once is just as safe in real life as it is in video game. Grow up.

The death of John Paul I being a mob hit lies pretty firmly in the realm of conspiracy theory. Granted, it's a much more plausible conspiracy theory than, for example, the ones that surround the moon landing or the September 11th attacks (and also better known as the plot to the weakest Godfather movie), but the lack of an autopsy means that we'll probably never know either way. He may have been poisoned, or he may have just had something like an undiagnosed heart condition and the whole banking drama was either a coincidence or contributed enough stress to cause a heart failure.

[Irbis]

The death of John Paul I being a mob hit lies pretty firmly in the realm of conspiracy theory. Granted, it's a much more plausible conspiracy theory than, for example, the ones that surround the moon landing or the September 11th attacks (and also better known as the plot to the weakest Godfather movie), but the lack of an autopsy means that we'll probably never know either way. He may have been poisoned, or he may have just had something like an undiagnosed heart condition and the whole banking drama was either a coincidence or contributed enough stress to cause a heart failure.

Oh, I didn't said it was necessarily mob hit. I'd put several other organizations first - after all, it was the time where fighting Evil Communism took precedence over everything else, and Pope seen as weak or ideologically wrong raised quite a lot of eyebrows. It could have even been natural death - but in this case through whitewashing, contradictions and obscurity surrounding his death would be unnecessary, not multiply with time, and it points to at least someone 'helping' natural causes, IMHO.

[Replicant]

LOL. I have seen it all now. Me thinks you play too many video games if your suggesting the pope put himself in mortal danger by attempting to fix a bank.

How old are you, imbecile? Twelve? Italian crime cartels happen to be one of the biggest and wealthiest in the world. Their threat is not imagined - they kill hundreds yearly for less than throwing a shovelful of sand into their financial workings. Fuck, someone can get best security in the world and still die if mafia wants it, courtesy of half ton bomb blowing the whole countryside to bits.

Please, do educate yourself on something before you start using ignorant leetspeak, ok?

Also, in case you didn't heard, previous Pope trying the same reforms died in mysterious circumstances after just a month in office 35 years ago. Yes, trying to upset the balance of several powerful entreched organizations at once is just as safe in real life as it is in video game. Grow up.

That having been said the current pope isn't probably in much danger of assassination: he was chosen quickly, which means that he probably has the backing of a solid majority of the cardinals (and they knew perfectly who they were electing).

So did John Paul I and it didn't helped him one bit. Camorra or Cosa Nostra shown time and again they don't care for independent minded priests, like this one.

The only imbecile here is the idiot talking black helicopters and suggesting thru mob would treat the Pope the same way they treated a local priest that got too nosey in the Italian version of hells kitchen.

[Dr. Trainwreck]

Why wouldn't they? They killed not one but two judges opposed to them in the same year, Giovanni Falcone and Paolo Borsellino. If the mafiosi are not afraid of the people that are dedicated to hunting them down, why would they be afraid of Francis?

[Thanas]

Replicant has a point though. Killing the pope is not something anyone would dare to do lightly. The Mafia know that if they kill him they will be hunted down by a lot of people. They don't want that attention.

But nothing of that should distract us from the fact that the Pope is a valid candidate. Would I have preferred another? Yeah. But I can clearly see that there is a legitimate argument here. Replicunt apparently cannot do so.

[Dr. Trainwreck]

I'd have gone with Retardcant first and kept Replicunt as a follow-up, but your style works as well.

As for the point I know that every mafioso would think hard about assassinating the Pope, but fact is they have been proven so brazen before that they would certainly contemplate it if pushed hard enough. But I won't insist if you disagree.

[Thanas]

I'd have gone with Retardcant first and kept Replicunt as a follow-up, but your style works as well.

....That actually was a typo.

[PKRudeBoy]

I'd have gone with Retardcant first and kept Replicunt as a follow-up, but your style works as well.

....That actually was a typo.

Sure it wasn't a Freudian slip?

[Thanas]

Vy does evryzhing haff to do wiff penis?

[Dr. Trainwreck]

....That actually was a typo.

In typo veritas.

It is spam, but I felt compelled.