Considering that my argument is basically 'your problem with people coming down on you probably has more to do with your shittiness then a lack of belief that's shared by a tenth of the U.S. population'....kinda? 11-year old me was terrible.
Which...does jack all to support your claim that a lot/most/all/all of the vocal atheists are I'm afraid. You're not exactly a valid statistical sample.
Unless you intended to include your inability to see that in your shittiness, of course.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
I think this is a case of both sides being right. Yeah, there are a lot of vocal atheists who bring grief on themselves by being assholes about it, but that doesn't change the fact that there are quite a few Christians vocal and otherwise who are actively offended by the fact that atheists exist, period.
the atom wrote:
Oh yeah, there's also the persecution complex. Right, thanks for reminding me. No, the big problem with atheism in this day and age is the fact that vocal atheists are, by and large, terrible people with awful opinions.
But hey, I expect that if some teen is beaten or disowned by his parents for being an atheist, he must have been a "terrible person with awful opinions".
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
Yeah, it couldn't possibly be that it's just you who's just a jerk and stand-offish. Nope, must be something inherently wrong with atheism because you've done your research with an extensive testing group of one person.
He does have a point. I have talked to Richard Dawkins and he is an arrogant condescending asshole, even to other ethologist. Then you get the whole "religion is child abuse, no matter how benign the religion" thing. That is pretty dickish. Every atheist who deconverted who I have ever met went through some sort of bitter asshole stage.
That said, the official discrimination and "shame on you" looks when you simply tell someone you are an atheist dont result from individual dickishness, and they predate the internet.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/ Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences
There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.
Batman wrote:Which...does jack all to support your claim that a lot/most/all/all of the vocal atheists are I'm afraid. You're not exactly a valid statistical sample.
Indeed. I'd probably need a somewhat more demonstrative example, perhaps revolving around a major atheist organization that involves a prominent figure? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebecca_Wa ... r_incident
TL;DR in the wake of a speech on sexual harassment, vocal elements (which is being incredibly generous by assuming that 'posting on the internet' could be considered vocal) of a major atheist community turn out to be terrifyingly misogynist grognards.
"Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste..."
Batman wrote:Which...does jack all to support your claim that a lot/most/all/all of the vocal atheists are I'm afraid. You're not exactly a valid statistical sample.
Indeed. I'd probably need a somewhat more demonstrative example, perhaps revolving around a major atheist organization that involves a prominent figure? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebecca_Wa ... r_incident
TL;DR in the wake of a speech on sexual harassment, vocal elements (which is being incredibly generous by assuming that 'posting on the internet' could be considered vocal) of a major atheist community turn out to be terrifyingly misogynist grognards.
Yeah... that was embarassing. On the other hand, the same views are held by most christians, at least in the US. It has nothing to do with atheism, and everything to do with a broader culture that promotes deeply rooted misogyny.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/ Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences
There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.
Alyrium Denryle wrote:He does have a point. I have talked to Richard Dawkins and he is an arrogant condescending asshole, even to other ethologist. Then you get the whole "religion is child abuse, no matter how benign the religion" thing. That is pretty dickish. Every atheist who deconverted who I have ever met went through some sort of bitter asshole stage.
That said, the official discrimination and "shame on you" looks when you simply tell someone you are an atheist dont result from individual dickishness, and they predate the internet.
Nope, he has none because he failed to show that dickish behaviour and atheism are intrinsically linked. Dawkins being a jerk might as well be a result of him being a privileged old white male and I don't have to tell you that there are plenty of relgiious privileged old white males that are major jerkasses. Correlation doesn't prove causation. Also, could we please stop with this anecdotal evidence from personal experience?
People at birth are naturally good. Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different from each other.
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)
Saddam’s crime was so bad we literally spent decades looking for our dropped monocles before we could harumph up the gumption to address it
-User Indigo Jump on Pharyngula
O God, please don't let me die today, tomorrow would be so much better!
-Traditional Spathi morning prayer
My hypothesis (based on nothing) is that there's likely more of a link between "asshole behavior" and "intellectualism" in general. Atheists tend to be intellectuals, because the default epistemological position in Western society is generally theism, and atheism is typically an intellectual reaction to that. The problem with "intellectuals", (whom I'll conveniently (re-)define as "people who are proud of the fact that they try to base their metaphysical, philosophical and political views on education, science and reason") is that this easily engenders a sense of superiority/arrogance, especially in a society where the average person bases their opinions on arbitrary bullshit like what their pastor just said or emotional experiences they've had... and a feeling of superiority tends to encourage asshole-ish behavior. I see it in myself sometimes, to be honest, which really makes me ashamed.
That said, I never understood that whole "elevator incident". A guy tries to pick up a girl in order to get laid, she rejects him, end of story. Where's the sexism here? Is any manifestation of human sexuality now "sexism" somehow? Is this sexism also?
The argument about it being sexual harassment appears to revolve around:
1) The guy's pick-up attempt being excessively crass or offensive, and
2) The woman being made to feel as though she is isolated in a small enclosure with a strange horny male.
(2) in particular is a hallmark of sexual harassment.
Well, I admit I don't really know much of the details. A bare description of the facts leads to the impression of a pretty innocuous incident (although I guess an elevator isn't exactly the best place to try and pick up a woman...).
Channel72 wrote:Well, I admit I don't really know much of the details. A bare description of the facts leads to the impression of a pretty innocuous incident (although I guess an elevator isn't exactly the best place to try and pick up a woman...).
As I recall, her reaction mostly consisted of her saying later on "Hey, this sort of thing tends to make women uncomfortable and guys shouldn't do it." She didn't even make that big of a deal about it, but a substantial part of the atheist community went batshit insane in response.
As long as the atheist community holds up people like Richard Dorkins or The Amazing Atheist up as influential and important figures without calling out their horrid reactionary beliefs we will continue to be associated with them.
This is almost inevitably a side effect of me not being a real world US american but far as I'm concerned there is no such thing as an atheist community. We're just people who don't believe in God.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
Batman wrote:This is almost inevitably a side effect of me not being a real world US american but far as I'm concerned there is no such thing as an atheist community. We're just people who don't believe in God.
And for me there's no such thing as a gay community, just people who like having sex with the same gender. Some people make it more a part of their identity, and if you choose to do that you should at least speak out against other people when they say shitty things under the umbrella of your shared identity. Same as how people sometimes look at me cross-eyed because there are so many creepy bronies out there.
