Pennsylvania Judge Strikes Down New Voter ID Law

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Pennsylvania Judge Strikes Down New Voter ID Law

Post by Kitsune »

Noticed this article and seems to agree with most of the things we have been arguing

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/0 ... er-ruling/
In a major victory for proponents of voting rights, a Pennsylvania judge overturned the state’s new voter identification law on Friday.

The voter ID measure was enacted in the Commonwealth in March 2012, eight months before the presidential election. It contained a strict ID requirement, meaning that if a voter showed up at the polls and did not have a certain form of photo identification, she would be denied their right to cast a ballot.

Officials estimated that as many as 750,000 Pennsylvanians lacked an acceptable identification, leaving nearly 1 in 10 voters at risk of being disenfranchised.

Many Republicans hoped the measure would help them carry Pennsylvania in the 2012 presidential election for the first time in a generation. These sentiments were captured by State House Majority Leader Mike Turzai, who in a moment of candor declared that the new voter ID law was “gonna allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania.”

The law wound up in court and was ultimately prevented from taking effect in the 2012 election by a temporary order while the two sides continued to litigate the matter.

More than a year later, Judge Bernard L. McGinley ruled on Friday against proponents of the law, issuing a permanent injunction against the voter ID requirement. In his opinion, McGinley noted that “In Pennsylvania, the right of qualified electors to vote is a fundamental one.” Therefore, “Pennsylvania precedent does not permit regulation of the right to vote when such regulation denies the franchise, or ‘make it so difficult as to amount to a denial.’” McGinley also found no compelling state interest was present that could override this right, noting that no in-person voter fraud is “exceedingly rare” and that “a vague concern about voter fraud does not rise to a level that justifies the burdens constructed here.”

The case will now likely move to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court.
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Re: Pennsylvania Judge Strikes Down New Voter ID Law

Post by Steve »

I'm curious as to what it means by "strict photo ID"? If the process to get such is onerous then I can see the argument that ID laws act to deny the franchise to legal voters.

In Florida it's usually driver's license, from what I've seen.
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Re: Pennsylvania Judge Strikes Down New Voter ID Law

Post by Ahriman238 »

Steve wrote:I'm curious as to what it means by "strict photo ID"? If the process to get such is onerous then I can see the argument that ID laws act to deny the franchise to legal voters.

In Florida it's usually driver's license, from what I've seen.
Typically a driver's license, passport, or a state ID (some states issue ID cards for people who don't drive, don't travel but still need ID sometimes, and they are a pain in the neck to obtain.) In some cases of voter ID states there is a special voter's ID, I believe.
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Re: Pennsylvania Judge Strikes Down New Voter ID Law

Post by Steve »

IIRC you need a similar standard to getting Drivers Licenses after 2010, that is bringing in things like your birth certificate, two proofs of residence, etc.?
”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

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Re: Pennsylvania Judge Strikes Down New Voter ID Law

Post by Wing Commander MAD »

Ahriman238 wrote:
Steve wrote:I'm curious as to what it means by "strict photo ID"? If the process to get such is onerous then I can see the argument that ID laws act to deny the franchise to legal voters.

In Florida it's usually driver's license, from what I've seen.
Typically a driver's license, passport, or a state ID (some states issue ID cards for people who don't drive, don't travel but still need ID sometimes, and they are a pain in the neck to obtain.) In some cases of voter ID states there is a special voter's ID, I believe.
Not in PA, they aren't. I have one. It's a simple matter of filling out the paperwork (very similar to DL application, actually it may even be the same form), paying the fee, and going to a PennDoT Drivers License Center where they do photo cards to get your picture taken and actually receive the ID card. I seem to remember needing proof of residence last time I got a new card, though as Steve mentioned they may have increased the needed documentation from when I got my last card. The greatest hurdle is getting to the Drivers Licence Center on a day that it's open, and the fee which should be waved in light of hardship in my mind. Arguably it's easier than getting a drivers license in PA, as you don't have to parallel park with a State Trooper sitting right next to you.

That said I'm glad this was struck down, at least until the Pennsylvania Supreme Court rules on it. If this wasn't a naked attempt at disenfranchisement by Republicans, and adequate provisions for hardships were made and several years time allowed before the law went into effect I'd probably support such a bill as a means of getting mandatory IDs for the populace. Really, everyone should have a valid photo ID. The only exceptions I'd make are for certain religious groups, and they would probably have to get a portrait or some kind of drawing done in place of a photograph (done at the state's expense perhaps by police sketch artists or something).
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Re: Pennsylvania Judge Strikes Down New Voter ID Law

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The PA law also excluded common photo IDs like U.S. Military photo IDs that have no expiration date. (because they do not expire :roll: )

Sorry, when State Congressional Republican's were caught on video flat out saying the law was intended to "win the state for Romney" in 2012, that pretty much kissed this law goodbye in front of any sane Judge.
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Re: Pennsylvania Judge Strikes Down New Voter ID Law

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Lord Insanity wrote:The PA law also excluded common photo IDs like U.S. Military photo IDs that have no expiration date. (because they do not expire :roll: )
Military IDs expire.
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Re: Pennsylvania Judge Strikes Down New Voter ID Law

Post by Beowulf »

Block wrote:
Lord Insanity wrote:The PA law also excluded common photo IDs like U.S. Military photo IDs that have no expiration date. (because they do not expire :roll: )
Military IDs expire.
Blue DD Form 2s can have no expiration date.
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Re: Pennsylvania Judge Strikes Down New Voter ID Law

Post by Flagg »

Block wrote:
Lord Insanity wrote:The PA law also excluded common photo IDs like U.S. Military photo IDs that have no expiration date. (because they do not expire :roll: )
Military IDs expire.
Funny, my moms had hers since the 70s. Never had to get a new one because... It doesn't expire!
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Re: Pennsylvania Judge Strikes Down New Voter ID Law

Post by Ahriman238 »

Wing Commander MAD wrote:
Ahriman238 wrote:
Steve wrote:I'm curious as to what it means by "strict photo ID"? If the process to get such is onerous then I can see the argument that ID laws act to deny the franchise to legal voters.

In Florida it's usually driver's license, from what I've seen.
Typically a driver's license, passport, or a state ID (some states issue ID cards for people who don't drive, don't travel but still need ID sometimes, and they are a pain in the neck to obtain.) In some cases of voter ID states there is a special voter's ID, I believe.
Not in PA, they aren't. I have one. It's a simple matter of filling out the paperwork (very similar to DL application, actually it may even be the same form), paying the fee, and going to a PennDoT Drivers License Center where they do photo cards to get your picture taken and actually receive the ID card. I seem to remember needing proof of residence last time I got a new card, though as Steve mentioned they may have increased the needed documentation from when I got my last card. The greatest hurdle is getting to the Drivers Licence Center on a day that it's open, and the fee which should be waved in light of hardship in my mind. Arguably it's easier than getting a drivers license in PA, as you don't have to parallel park with a State Trooper sitting right next to you.
It's relatively easy with some hours of waiting and mundane paperwork, provided you have proof of residence and at least two forms of valid ID. Of course, if you had two valid forms of ID why are you even getting a state card? Our paperwork got sent back thrice.
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Re: Pennsylvania Judge Strikes Down New Voter ID Law

Post by Flagg »

See if the Democrats were smart they would push for a mandatory national ID card and make it like legal tender where it cannot be refused as a means of ID for anything.
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Re: Pennsylvania Judge Strikes Down New Voter ID Law

Post by Wing Commander MAD »

IIRC it was a birth certificate and one or two items to show proof of residence, no ID required which would be kind of circular. What sate were you trying to get an ID in and where in the state? Fortunately, the longest wait time I've ever had at any PennDoT office was maybe a half hour, though I'm not in a dense urban area.
See if the Democrats were smart they would push for a mandatory national ID card and make it like legal tender where it cannot be refused as a means of ID for anything.
Agreed, though don't people tend start acting weird whenever someone mentions national IDs, either because of odd religious hangups or various conspiracy theory bullshit? The idea should have bipartisan support as it both ensures people have valid IDs and cuts down on overall government expense by eliminating layers of redundancy and having to manage all the expenses involved with designing and manufacturing the modern ID card 50 or more times. It's not like states can refuse valid ID from another state due to the Full Faith and Credit clause, so every state having their own ID cards and systems is rather pointless except for "States Rights." I think we all know the general held view of that argument here at SDN.
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Re: Pennsylvania Judge Strikes Down New Voter ID Law

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Wing Commander MAD wrote:
See if the Democrats were smart they would push for a mandatory national ID card and make it like legal tender where it cannot be refused as a means of ID for anything.
Agreed, though don't people tend start acting weird whenever someone mentions national IDs, either because of odd religious hangups or various conspiracy theory bullshit? The idea should have bipartisan support as it both ensures people have valid IDs and cuts down on overall government expense by eliminating layers of redundancy and having to manage all the expenses involved with designing and manufacturing the modern ID card 50 or more times. It's not like states can refuse valid ID from another state due to the Full Faith and Credit clause, so every state having their own ID cards and systems is rather pointless except for "States Rights." I think we all know the general held view of that argument here at SDN.
Oh, but don't you know that a national ID is a socialist Communist plot to control the population?

That's more or less the serious argument... the theory goes that if a national ID is mandated then the government will know where you go anywhere you show an ID. They'll be able to track your beer purchases! Your cigarettes! Your porn! INVASION OF PRIVACY! Heaven forbid they put any kind of electronic chip on it, too, because then it's the Mark of the Beast. There's your religious hangup right there, and it might not even need a chip for them to think it's that anyway.

The Democrats might go for a national ID, but the Republicans? No chance in hell. Not only do they have the above issues but it'd suddenly render many of their voter-suppression tactics moot. (birth certificate? two forms of state ID? concealed-carry permit? but not a college or university student ID, nope, forget it, go home to vote... what, you're from the other side of the country even though you've been living here for three years? Forget about it!)

Seriously, have there been *any* incidents in recent (past 10-15 years, let's say) history of Democrats pulling shit with voter ID or gerrymandering districts, and if so how does it compare to the Republicans' record on this?

Ahem.

Anyway, one issue with a national ID that I do see is that it wouldn't necessarily be valid for a local election. A state driver's license and/or proof of address (everybody gets a bill to their home at some point, don't they?) should be sufficient for that. Although it would be a simple enough matter to just put a person's state of residence, county, and address upon their national ID...
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Re: Pennsylvania Judge Strikes Down New Voter ID Law

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The problem it seems, at least logically, with a national ID is that some state IDs are much harder to get than others, and not just for voting purposes in the last few years. Virginia's had similar difficulties since before President Obama was in office, requiring a Birth Certificate, a Passport, or a Virginia ID anyway. The thing is for the states to agree, if logic were to even be a part of it, requirements would have to be somewhat similar to the more difficult states that have managed to get away with it. That is, the states that have sold it for a reasonable purpose anyway. Forget the states that have specifically done it for voting purposes, especially Pennsylvania, with documented examples of politicians saying they're passing this law to make it more difficult for the other party to vote. But then, will the politicians from the states that allow their licenses and IDs to be done easier agree? What kind of compromise could be reached, if any, forgetting about the parties for the moment? Will certain states then consider the ID legitimate for certain state purposes? I say forget about the parties for the moment because once they become involved it sort of goes down the drain anyway these days and that's not really an interesting discussion anymore.
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Re: Pennsylvania Judge Strikes Down New Voter ID Law

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Problem about that is the state governments have become so identified with whatever party that's currently in office that you can basically count on them hewing to the Republican or Democrat party lines. The only exception to this are politically diverse states like California. You cannot necessarily count on a state government making decisions that aren't based upon the current dominant party's policies.
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Re: Pennsylvania Judge Strikes Down New Voter ID Law

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I realize that, but at the same time when you start talking about a national ID from an the point of view of a country like the US you have to consider the fact that an ID is very easy to get in some states and very difficult to get in others in the sense of proving who you are and what your address is to that state before they issue it. I'm more talking the logistics and requirements of the National ID than I am the debate to get the law passed, which is what you're focused on here.
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Re: Pennsylvania Judge Strikes Down New Voter ID Law

Post by Elheru Aran »

OK, fair enough.

The big question with a national ID is whether it's truly necessary or not. All the states will respect another state's driver's license as long as it's valid. All the states will recognize a valid birth certificate. Those are two forms of identification you can use anywhere within the US, pretty much.

The problem is whether the government is allowed to tell the states to cut it out and either make getting an ID easier or accept a national ID...
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Re: Pennsylvania Judge Strikes Down New Voter ID Law

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Elheru Aran wrote:That's more or less the serious argument... the theory goes that if a national ID is mandated then the government will know where you go anywhere you show an ID. They'll be able to track your beer purchases! Your cigarettes! Your porn! INVASION OF PRIVACY! Heaven forbid they put any kind of electronic chip on it, too, because then it's the Mark of the Beast. There's your religious hangup right there, and it might not even need a chip for them to think it's that anyway.
Even ignoring the religious hangups, I'd be seriously concerned about a federal (or state) ID that includes a tracking chip so that the government can monitor citizens' movements and purchases effortlessly.

That's an invitation to Stasi-style intrusive analysis of citizens' lives, and questioning of citizens who are suspected of deviant behavior.
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Re: Pennsylvania Judge Strikes Down New Voter ID Law

Post by Elheru Aran »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Elheru Aran wrote:That's more or less the serious argument... the theory goes that if a national ID is mandated then the government will know where you go anywhere you show an ID. They'll be able to track your beer purchases! Your cigarettes! Your porn! INVASION OF PRIVACY! Heaven forbid they put any kind of electronic chip on it, too, because then it's the Mark of the Beast. There's your religious hangup right there, and it might not even need a chip for them to think it's that anyway.
Even ignoring the religious hangups, I'd be seriously concerned about a federal (or state) ID that includes a tracking chip so that the government can monitor citizens' movements and purchases effortlessly.

That's an invitation to Stasi-style intrusive analysis of citizens' lives, and questioning of citizens who are suspected of deviant behavior.
Oh, I actually don't mean a tracking chip. I could have been more clear on this. I do absolutely agree that a tracker would be highly questionable on a national ID and bears great potential for abuse.

I meant something like what you see on some credit cards or national ID's; a small memory card of some sort that could hold an electronic record of your vital information. Say you're in a car accident, obviously you don't have time to fill out information, so the EMT or cop on the scene pulls your wallet and runs your ID through a card reader. Poof, you're in the system. Less paperwork and tedious questions all around.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_card

The primary downside of such a system is it could make identity theft easier if anybody could pick up the technology to read these memory-chipped cards. I'm aware of the possible drawbacks of the system, and mainly I threw it out there because I know they exist but I'm aware of the (ridiculous) objections that might be put up against such a form of national ID.
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Re: Pennsylvania Judge Strikes Down New Voter ID Law

Post by Ultonius »

Wing Commander MAD wrote:The only exceptions I'd make are for certain religious groups, and they would probably have to get a portrait or some kind of drawing done in place of a photograph (done at the state's expense perhaps by police sketch artists or something).
I suspect that such religious groups (I assume you're mainly thinking of Anabaptist and Brethren Plain sects) would also reject a drawn visual ID, since their beliefs prohibit or at least discourage the creation of images in which they can be recognized, regardless of how those images are produced. However, an ID including fingerprints might be acceptable to them.
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