The myth of HSA,healthcare and Singapore

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PainRack
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The myth of HSA,healthcare and Singapore

Post by PainRack »

The topic of Health Saving Accounts, its impact on healthcare, and how Singapore kept being brought up in the last 4 years during the Obamacare debate has always rankled me. As a personal user of the Singapore system, I knew outright just how flawed the depictions were and I outright laughed when I read Tim Hartford depiction of our system in the Undercover Economist.

Those on these boards probably have read my off the cuff posts on this topic before but I thought a prepared post would illustrate the picture better.
First things off.

1. The Singapore healthcare system is not worse off than the US. Its markably superior and it has certain benefits compared to the NHS equivalent we migrated out from. Its offer a trade off in terms of healthcare financing.

2. I am of the stance that healthcare financing doesn't significantly affect the quality of the healthcare system...... except in one regards. Capacity. Granted, this might be because of odious comparison with the NHS in the 90s, but its the same stance that our health ministers took back in the 1980s when we took us off the system. A fully state operated system like the NHS may face mismatch in funding compared to the demand required. When more investment is required or the costs rises, the funds required might not arise. Granted, Singapore itself is not a sterling example of the counter-argument but our low capacity is a matter of design.


So, with the above disclaimers....... let's get into the meat of the topic.


Anyone familiar with conservative thinking has surely heard of the Singapore healthcare model, in comparison with Obamacare over the last 4 years. Its been echoed in many articles, op eds and blogs.

Oddly enough, all of them seem to feed back off each other and rely on 3 main sources.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 7QMCEa7hVk
http://youtu.be/r7QMCEa7hVk
The world focus video.

John Tucci, "The Singapore health system – achieving positive health outcomes with low expenditure", Watson Wyatt Healthcare Market Review, October 2004.

And for the newer articles in 2013, William Haseltine Affordable Excellence, the Singapore Healthcare story.
http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/press/ ... ncepdf.pdf

Strangely, the bloggers all seem to take on the same message points, those espoused by Milton Friedman.
http://youtu.be/IcKvjrqiR5I


John Stossel.

http://www.freedomworks.org/blog/breean ... -singapore

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arc ... em/254210/

Because the individual is forced to pay for his own healthcare expenses, he decides just what is needed, decides not to overspends and will take better care of himself. And because he can then choose to go to which doctor he wants for the best option, this introduces competition, which reduces costs and improve quality.

Let's remember those three key words.
Competition.
Individual responsibility.
Choice.


A minor problem.If you actually read the above 3 sources, they don't actually say that all 3 matters.

1.Worldfocus talks about individual responsibility but not choice or competition.
2. Wyatts talk about individual responsibility+choice, but not competition.
3. Haseltine talks about all 3, but places the importance on competition and choice.


More importantly................. none of them actually says how Medisave accomplishes all of this. All the op eds, the articles all assume that Medisave is solely responsible for these facets in Singapore healthcare system.
Somehow, Medisave allows patients to choose the best and cheapest doctors, they allow patients to take control of their own treatments and lastly, they encourage patients to limit their health expenditure by being healthy.

At best, the Worldfocus video has the then Health Minister Khaw made the statement about individual responsibility, the need to keep your medisave account healthy by saving more and keeping oneself healthy.

Haseltine argues that Medisave help prevents wastage and over-use(by limiting healthcare visits/expenditure.)



Unfortunately........ all of these has been taken out of context. And under the hands of conservative/free market enthusiasts, distorted into meaningless drivel.

As a short note, a book has been written, explicitly to rebut Haseltine analysis and provides a very detailed overview of our system.
http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Or-Magic-Sin ... 9810773625
This isn't to say that his analysis is wrong. It isn't. The facts are accurate, the analysis logical...... the problem is the conclusions are obviously american driven and misses/distorts key aspects of our systems because of his different perspective.

1. Singaporeans aren't taking better care of their health. Not on their own. The advent of Medisave or the 3M has not made a single iota on wellness care by Singaporeans. Not one single bit.

Has Singaporean health behaviour improved? YES! But none of this is linked remotely to Medisave. Vaccinations and outpatient health visit maternal care was initially organised under the free healthcare system. When we transited over to Medisave, important vaccines like the MMR and TB were still free and monitored under the aegis of the government like School Health Services, others were charged under Medisave but vaccine uptake rates were the same. Indeed, vaccination rates in recent years has fallen due to Wakefield.......................

Smoking and alcohol consumption were reduced........... But this was under the aegis of heavy social engineering and smoking cessation programs. Since Medisave had no impact on these programs, its ludricous to imagine that Medisave had an impact. The correlation is not linked.

Obesity rates in Singapore has been rising, along with this, diabetes and the like. Even the old bad boys, infectious diseases like TB and dengue fever has had nothing to do with Medisave.

If Medisave had any impact on Singapore Health behaviour, Minister Khaw would NOT have invoked Orweillian language about how Ministry of Health ineveitably meant taking care of sick people and how he wished to change that. And we do. Haseltine mentions how the government has strict controls on communicable diseases but fails to communicate how this and other government social engineering played a more important role in reducing healthcare costs than Medisave. A press article once claimed how Singaporeans are physically more fit.......... because the government mandates all males pass a combat fitness test yearly and arranges mandatory remedial training for those who fail.


It gets even more annoying because Medisave as originally designed was intended purely for hospital care. And Haseltine noted that spiraling costs led to the invention of the castrophic health insurance Medishield........... by which he meant healthcare costs rose from 11% to 13%. So........ no drop in healthcare costs under Medisave and healthcare inflation rates in Singapore is traditionally low compared to other countries, even now in our modern time, its only 5 odd percent. And let's face it, a patient has NO impact on how long he stays in the hospital and precious little on what treatment and the costs are in the hospital even in the west. This goes down to zero in the paternalistic Singaporean system(well, until the nineties anyway.)


So........ let's reiterate.
Costs rose.
Health behaviour independent of Medisave implementation.

Now, a more nuanced look does show how Medisave can be used to improve health behaviour. As detailed by Jeremy Lim, colorectal screening used the adage "Medisave claimable" to increase uptake. Or in other words, Singaporeans were using Medisave EXACTLY like a third party payer. Unwilling to pay out of pocket but when you can charge Medisave instead..................

The exact opposite of the behaviour desired by Milton Friedman.

But....... our health Minister claims individual responsibility is key! Our Prime Minister also said that too!
Hell, its right there in that video, work hard, earn more, don't smoke and keep healthy, more Medisave!

Different context.

You see...... He's saying that in order for the system to work, Singaporeans HAVE to take personal responsibility for their own health and savings.
Politics may mean that occasionally politicians use the weasel words that Singaporeans has high co-payment, so they have to take better care of their health. This is not a cause= effect situation. Its a because, so you have to situation.

Sadly, the speech he made is not available on the blog, but back when Medisave was first liberalised for chronic disease management, he explicitly stated that while he agreed and saw the need for this, his concern was that Medisave not be depleted and hence, the need for withdrawal limits(and co-payments) to help prevent the depletion of Medisave.

In other words, the GOVERNMENT, will RESTRICT, how much money you can use out of your savings account, to manage your own health. You would need to cough up the differential yourself.

A less explicit form of the statement is found here.
But I wanted to also remind our readers of the purpose of Medisave which is to help pay costly hospitalisation. That tends to happen at old age. Hence, my serious concern that our Medisave is not depleted prematurely.

Small outpatient bills should be paid out of pocket in cash. Medisave should target large hospital bills and all should be “MediShield-ed” to take care of very large hospital bills.

- See more at: http://mohsingapore.sg/2010/01/medisave ... /#more-117

Exhortations for Singaporeans to take personal care of their health-
Singaporeans must not be passive recipients of the new strategy. Indeed, for the strategy to work, Singaporeans must be active partners, taking full ownership of their own health. We can at best be a good coach and a dynamic cheer leader. - See more at: http://mohsingapore.sg/2011/01/healthca ... d9xzb.dpuf

http://mohsingapore.sg/2012/05/thoughts ... rdability/



Suffice to say, the picture painted by conservatives and libertarians on how the HSA in Singapore is used to promote individual responsibility is heavily distorted.


2. Choice.
Still, Singaporeans have the right to choose their healthcare treatment, right?

Right in terms of healthcare economics, wrong in terms of libertarian thinking.

We do have 'choice'. Healthcare spending in Singapore is consumer driven healthcare. By mandating savings(and public insurance), Singaporeans are better able to access healthcare than they would have been without it(let's ignore the Beveridge system we had)
http://mohsingapore.sg/2010/02/more-choices/#more-109

But this doesn't mean the same 'choice' libertarians mean. Are Singaporeans able, because of Medisave to choose the right, cheapest doctor? Nope.
Medisave has done precious little to actually make that happen. Instead, the government has stepped in to make this happen. First, during the last decade, they introduced median hospital bills and ordered hospitals to be more transparent in their billing, publishing the bills on their website so that patients can make a more informed choice for costs.
http://mohsingapore.sg/2010/05/patients-as-shoppers/
So......... who knew that publishing hidden medical bills forces businesses to drop their prices and actually compete with each other?

Secondly, in an attempt to right site care......... they ignored Medisave utterly and rely now on a government agency, (Agency of Intergrated Care) to help right site patients instead.

Actions speak louder than words indeed.

3. Competition.
Has competition kept healthcare costs low? I advise people to read through Jeremy lim book instead as the answer isn't a simple Yes and No.


However, what CAN be said is..... Medisave HASN"T improved competition per se. It has not provided a source of healthcare dollars that people are chasing for, like say...... Medicare in the US.

As seen in the better shoppers posts, competition has not been enforced on hospitals by the consumers. Rather, it is the government itself which is striving to enforce competition, first via the splitting of the hospitals into two seperate clusters(NHG and Singhealth) and then enforcing transparency by releasing median medical bills.

Similarly, the entry of private agencies has not made costs more transparent and more competitive, as can be seen by Dr Susan Lim
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/surgeon-susan- ... 22896.html


The reasons for Singapore relatively low medical inflation rate are myriad........ From Hsiao comment about supply and Singapore regulation of medical services so as to reduce over-prescription, restricting demand via a combination of both low supply and high co-payments, a 'public' competitor which help benchmark prices..............

Suffice to say that Medisave sole contribution to help reduce costs is through limitation of utilisation. Whether this is helpful, god only knows. I doubt anyone has successfully managed to conduct a cost analysis in which patients waste their own money(and frankly, how do you judge peace of mind as a waste?)



Lastly.......... what DOES the Singapore experiment tells us about HSA? They tell us the same things that should have been obvious.
A high co-payment system limits demand.
HSA 'work' by having the assumption that your medical costs are low when young and that you will save enough to meet your inflated needs when old. These assumptions aren't universally true.
I previously held up HIV patients as an example. These patients are typically young and the costs of ARV, antibiotics, tests are very expensive.
http://www.afa.org.sg/act/27/3.htm

Young patients don't have the savings to meet the high costs involved. Now, a comprehensive insurance plan, even a comprehensive catastrophic insurance plan( i have no idea whether this exists but various posters on SB keep insisting they do) will cover said costs(provided there's no lifetime limit) but our insurance covers hospital charges. Not outpatient visits.

Another assumption is that you saved enough for your medical needs. This is subjective. What happens if you need to save a thousand dollars on average yearly but your income is inadequate to meet that demand? Or your needs happen to fall outside of this range? Or more importantly, what if healthcare inflation rises faster than initially predicted, as has been the case for the last 3 decades?

In singapore, this is handled through 3 means. Addition of your own personal savings and assets. Intergenerational transfer(including from your children Medisave). Medifund and Comchest........ which operates as I'm told similarly to Medicaid.

Yet, none of the libertarians who espouse the merits of HSA so far has talked about its flaws or what happens if the assumptions behind it fail. Why?


To summarise, the Singapore healthcare system does not operate along the lines of how Obamacare critics think it does, even the out of context sources they use do not endorse the libertarian views espoused, no matter how frequently libertarians repeat it and quote Haseltine or Wyatt.
The concepts of individual responsibility takes on a different context in Singapore healthcare politics than it does in the US, Medisave has not shown any correlation to health behaviours whatsoever other than tampering the utilisation of healthcare services. Without such an impact, it can be shown that the argument of choice and competition is irrelevant to whether HSAs should be used in a US context and the Singaporean system uses other methods to help bring about choice and competition, even as our definition of those terms are different from how libertarians portray it. Certainly, the high level of government intervention, regulation and control would be unacceptable to libertarians who invoke fears of Hitler when the Federal government creates a state health insurance exchange.


Thank you for bothering to dig through this overtly long, wandering essay.:D
Let him land on any Lyran world to taste firsthand the wrath of peace loving people thwarted by the myopic greed of a few miserly old farts- Katrina Steiner
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Re: The myth of HSA,healthcare and Singapore

Post by energiewende »

The principal advantage of the Singapore system is that it is much cheaper than the US system, by limiting supply. Obamacare does not do that and any system that does probably is not politically possible in the US. This is also the advantage of an NHS-type system, at least in a country like Britain where supply has been consistently limited over decades with high levels of public support; a US NHS would be even more expensive than the current mixed system.

So,
PainRack wrote:Another assumption is that you saved enough for your medical needs. This is subjective. What happens if you need to save a thousand dollars on average yearly but your income is inadequate to meet that demand? Or your needs happen to fall outside of this range?
what's a healthcare need? This is not a trivial question.

The US system is primarily expensive due to provision of high cost services of marginal effectiveness. It's true that these services improve the quality of one's healthcare, but it's not clear that they are worth the price. The US has taken the stance, both through its state subsidised plans Medicare and Medicaid, that combined account for half of all spending, and through its state mandated coverage laws for private plans, that every improvement is good and that as much should be provided as possible. This has had the perverse effect that many are unable to afford these high coverage comprehensive insurance plans at all which is the proximal cause of the current controversy.

Singapore's stance has been to treat healthcare beyond some guaranteed minimum as just another market good: if you want more of it you have to spend less on other things and/or earn more. Since those additional services are of marginal use, this does not reduce Singapore's life expectancy very much; in fact compared to the US the effect is more than outweighed by Singapore's superior average BMI so Singapore's outcomes are actually superior for less money.

If you were to adopt the US approach, either by mandating high coverage comprehensive plans, or by subsidising an NHS-type system that provided equivalent coverage, Singapore would lose its advantage in cost and not gain much in improved life expectancy.
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Re: The myth of HSA,healthcare and Singapore

Post by PainRack »

energiewende wrote:The principal advantage of the Singapore system is that it is much cheaper than the US system, by limiting supply. Obamacare does not do that and any system that does probably is not politically possible in the US. This is also the advantage of an NHS-type system, at least in a country like Britain where supply has been consistently limited over decades with high levels of public support; a US NHS would be even more expensive than the current mixed system.
Ok.
1. Singapore limitation of service providers is only 'part' of the answer. The NHS being consistently limited will require MUCH more evidence than just your say so. Rather, the swings of health economics and funding dictates their welfare level. Indeed, one can argue that the crisis in the nineties should be blamed on Thatcher managerial reforms in the 80s......... although I think such an answer would also be too simple.

2. The limitation of costs are caused by many things. You now taken it to the other extreme, ignoring how the 3Ms does help constrain costs by limiting utilisation while improved access means Singaporeans can get access to the care they need, how government subsidies, competition, benchmark to prices all work to help limit costs.
what's a healthcare need? This is not a trivial question.
So........ what is it? Or do we have to answer your question?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1087303/
The US system is primarily expensive due to provision of high cost services of marginal effectiveness.
Over-simplified perhaps?

The US system spends the bulk of its money on patients in the last stage of life, yes. But the reasons why their costs are so high is because of high drug prices, high labour costs, high operating costs....... we can even talk about how medical inflation is being driven up by expansion and technology and competition to feature the best technology, the argument that there is over-prescription(doctors with their own MRI services tend to prescribe MRIs more frequently than doctors who don't)

It's true that these services improve the quality of one's healthcare, but it's not clear that they are worth the price. The US has taken the stance, both through its state subsidised plans Medicare and Medicaid, that combined account for half of all spending, and through its state mandated coverage laws for private plans, that every improvement is good and that as much should be provided as possible.
Not as simple as all that. What is covered and isn't is different from state to state based on 'need'. Seriously, I'm a foreigner, so why the fuck do I know your system better than you do?

Singapore's stance has been to treat healthcare beyond some guaranteed minimum as just another market good: if you want more of it you have to spend less on other things and/or earn more. Since those additional services are of marginal use, this does not reduce Singapore's life expectancy very much; in fact compared to the US the effect is more than outweighed by Singapore's superior average BMI so Singapore's outcomes are actually superior for less money.
You DO know that our healthcare system funding also spends the bulk of its money on the elderly and on those in the last stages of life, right? That indeed, given the changing demographics which shifted care on to the hospital system, our end of life care is potentially more expensive due to a shortage in palliative and home care.
If you were to adopt the US approach, either by mandating high coverage comprehensive plans, or by subsidising an NHS-type system that provided equivalent coverage, Singapore would lose its advantage in cost and not gain much in improved life expectancy.
Evidence? Link? Huh?
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Re: The myth of HSA,healthcare and Singapore

Post by energiewende »

Well, that's a disappointingly scattergun response. Rather than multiquote a lot of tangents to infinity, can we just focus on the main point I am making: that there is a strong trade off between absolute quality of care, and cost efficiency of care?
So........ what is it? Or do we have to answer your question?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1087303/
Did you even read that? It discusses a number of competing definitions which all require subjective value judgements.
The US system spends the bulk of its money on patients in the last stage of life, yes. But the reasons why their costs are so high is because of high drug prices, high labour costs, high operating costs....... we can even talk about how medical inflation is being driven up by expansion and technology and competition to feature the best technology, the argument that there is over-prescription(doctors with their own MRI services tend to prescribe MRIs more frequently than doctors who don't)
Decision to purchase expensive drugs, tightly limit access to healthcare professions, over pay for liability mitigation, and purchase much more expensive but only marginally more effective machines, which are then overused, being exactly what I am talking about.
Not as simple as all that. What is covered and isn't is different from state to state based on 'need'. Seriously, I'm a foreigner, so why the fuck do I know your system better than you do?
What's covered is decided by votes in state legislatures, which one might suppose does not perfectly align with the Platonic ideal of need you have failed to provide. Furthermore I am not an American and my profile gives no reason to suppose I am one.
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Re: The myth of HSA,healthcare and Singapore

Post by PainRack »

energiewende wrote:Well, that's a disappointingly scattergun response. Rather than multiquote a lot of tangents to infinity, can we just focus on the main point I am making: that there is a strong trade off between absolute quality of care, and cost efficiency of care?
Its scattergun because you bloody over-simplified a complex topic.
And to answer your question, no. There isn't a 'strong' trade off between absolute quality of care and cost efficiency of care. For example, the best, highest quality care for many patients is actually home nursing, something which is also very cheap and effective.
Did you even read that? It discusses a number of competing definitions which all require subjective value judgements.
Why the fuck did you think I asked you to answer your own question?

There are multiple ways to answer that question. Note that I haven't even talked about the ethics of justice and equitable yet.

Decision to purchase expensive drugs, tightly limit access to healthcare professions, over pay for liability mitigation, and purchase much more expensive but only marginally more effective machines, which are then overused, being exactly what I am talking about.
And only the last has shit all to do with " provision of high cost services of marginal effectiveness." And even here........... its not that the machines are marginally effective. They are VERY effective. There's just the question of can we make do with something less, or do we need to upgrade so frequently.


What's covered is decided by votes in state legislatures, which one might suppose does not perfectly align with the Platonic ideal of need you have failed to provide. Furthermore I am not an American and my profile gives no reason to suppose I am one.
So...... are you even aware of when you're contraindicating yourself?
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Re: The myth of HSA,healthcare and Singapore

Post by energiewende »

PainRack wrote:
energiewende wrote:Well, that's a disappointingly scattergun response. Rather than multiquote a lot of tangents to infinity, can we just focus on the main point I am making: that there is a strong trade off between absolute quality of care, and cost efficiency of care?
Its scattergun because you bloody over-simplified a complex topic.
And to answer your question, no. There isn't a 'strong' trade off between absolute quality of care and cost efficiency of care. For example, the best, highest quality care for many patients is actually home nursing, something which is also very cheap and effective.
Home nursing is extremely expensive: you are paying an individual to live in your house full time (or multiple individuals, in the case of my grandfather). It's also highly ineffective compared to much cheaper treatments such as antibiotics and vaccinations: it extends a poor quality of life only a little. Mass nursing homes are more cost efficient and a bit (not a lot) worse, and simply letting people die in their beds is even more cost efficient and a bit (but not a lot) worse.

This is where the trade off enters: if you do absolutely nothing about old age conditions it will only reduce life expectancy by a few years, but that's where more than half the total spending takes place. So society needs some way of deciding when enough is enough. Singapore's method is to use saving accounts, so that individuals themselves have to set aside their income, and decide how much discretionary spending they want to forgo early in life to pay for their old age care. You may be right that it should be possible to spend the saving money on care homes as well as hospital wards, but it's not the salient issue, and one way around it (which is probably done already) is to simply set up geriatric wards that are run like care homes in practice. In the US, the government subsidises a very high level of care for the elderly, while in the UK the government subsidises a comparatively low level of care for the elderly. In this respect, the US system is more socialistic than the UK system; its less socialistic elements mainly impact the young and to a lesser extent the middle aged.

So Singapore system's superiority to that of the US is precisely that it doesn't provide the things you're complaining about not being provided. The same is true, although by a different route, of the UK system's superiority of that of the US system.
Decision to purchase expensive drugs, tightly limit access to healthcare professions, over pay for liability mitigation, and purchase much more expensive but only marginally more effective machines, which are then overused, being exactly what I am talking about.
And only the last has shit all to do with " provision of high cost services of marginal effectiveness." And even here........... its not that the machines are marginally effective. They are VERY effective. There's just the question of can we make do with something less, or do we need to upgrade so frequently.
No, all those things contribute.

- US could purchase drugs that are less expensive and less effective, but not substantially so.
- US could permit more people to go to medical school, reducing the average quality of doctors but increasing the supply.
- US could spend less limiting liability, increasing the rate of mistakes or malpractice but saving substantial amounts of money.
- US could purchase less effective machines or just use machines less.

You seem to share US mindset (which is perhaps why you are advocating a more US-like system), that everything should be as near perfect as possible. Like everything in a world of limited resources, the real challenge is to buy what is good enough with what you are willing to spend.
What's covered is decided by votes in state legislatures, which one might suppose does not perfectly align with the Platonic ideal of need you have failed to provide. Furthermore I am not an American and my profile gives no reason to suppose I am one.
So...... are you even aware of when you're contraindicating yourself?
I'm neither contraindicating nor contradicting myself.
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Re: The myth of HSA,healthcare and Singapore

Post by PainRack »

energiewende wrote: Home nursing is extremely expensive: you are paying an individual to live in your house full time (or multiple individuals, in the case of my grandfather). It's also highly ineffective compared to much cheaper treatments such as antibiotics and vaccinations: it extends a poor quality of life only a little. Mass nursing homes are more cost efficient and a bit (not a lot) worse, and simply letting people die in their beds is even more cost efficient and a bit (but not a lot) worse.
That's not what home nursing is.
Home nursing refers to home care, with the use of tele-nursing or home visits to follow up care as needed. Its commonly used for patients on palliative care but has been expanded for those who need outpatient antibiotic, depending on the services required.


Home care is cheap, has superior outcomes to insitutional care and usually comes with better quality of life and patient experiences.

They DO need supporting infrastructure however, from a home care giver(depending on the patient needs) and etc.

There's a difference between a nursing home and home nursing.

This is where the trade off enters: if you do absolutely nothing about old age conditions it will only reduce life expectancy by a few years, but that's where more than half the total spending takes place. So society needs some way of deciding when enough is enough.
Singapore's method is to use saving accounts, so that individuals themselves have to set aside their income, and decide how much discretionary spending they want to forgo early in life to pay for their old age care.
No, its not. The savings in Medisave is a fixed percentage of your income, there's even a max contribution for the self employed.
In the US, the government subsidises a very high level of care for the elderly, while in the UK the government subsidises a comparatively low level of care for the elderly. In this respect, the US system is more socialistic than the UK system; its less socialistic elements mainly impact the young and to a lesser extent the middle aged.
..................... You terms make no sense to reality whatsoever.....................

Just WHAT do you mean by comparatively lower level of care? That a lower percentage of the government healthcare budget is spent on the elderly in the UK than in the US? If so, that's a no shit sherlock statement, because a good portion of the US government healthcare spending is spent on the elderly in the US.

Otherwise, the answer is NO. The UK elderly also pay no cost at the point of service and like most other 1st world countries, the bulk of medical care is consumed by the elderly.
So Singapore system's superiority to that of the US is precisely that it doesn't provide the things you're complaining about not being provided. The same is true, although by a different route, of the UK system's superiority of that of the US system.
In other words, all your posts have nothing whatsoever to do with my OP and you're just mumbling in your own reality. We call that delusional behaviour you know.

Seriously. Just WHAT did I complain about not being provided?
Decision to purchase expensive drugs, tightly limit access to healthcare professions, over pay for liability mitigation, and purchase much more expensive but only marginally more effective machines, which are then overused, being exactly what I am talking about.
And only the last has shit all to do with " provision of high cost services of marginal effectiveness." And even here........... its not that the machines are marginally effective. They are VERY effective. There's just the question of can we make do with something less, or do we need to upgrade so frequently.
No, all those things contribute.[/quote]
NO mother fucker. WORDS. They have MEANING.

When you use the word High cost services of marginal effectiveness, you mean the US provides a lot of expensive services that work POORLY. You know, the definition of marginal effectiveness?
Effectiveness:the degree to which something is successful in producing a desired result; success.
Marginal: Barely within a lower standard or limit of quality

Just WHAT the fuck did you mean by the words marginal effectiveness there?

Seriously. Are you aware of the concept called verbal salad ?
My mom when schizio made more sense than you did in your entire post history in this thread!
You seem to share US mindset (which is perhaps why you are advocating a more US-like system), that everything should be as near perfect as possible. Like everything in a world of limited resources, the real challenge is to buy what is good enough with what you are willing to spend.
Really? Just Where in your fantasy world in this thread did I advocate a more US like system? Or is that in your own fantasy, delusional world?

Seriously. The first signs of my mom turning schizio was when she first started spouting sentences that had no meaning or didn't follow through, before she started talking about a fantasy scenario where she knew my dad was back in Singapore and was hiding from her.
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Re: The myth of HSA,healthcare and Singapore

Post by PainRack »

Edit: I see I missed a portion of your initial post regarding Home nursing.......

Suffice to say, that's not the entire concept of home nursing and its care. Home nursing in its current iteration, as opposed to a live in nurse refers to the use of tele-care as well as home visits to ensure a person healthcare needs are needed. Its actually cheaper, especially for patients who require the use of an ambulance or the training of caregivers to use heavy equipment like oxygen tanks to deliver stuff like outpatient antibiotics, wound dressing changes, urine catheters and etc.

Palliative home nursing utilise the concept frequently. As for its cost and effectiveness especially with regards to QOL, I let the studies speak for themselves.
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Re: The myth of HSA,healthcare and Singapore

Post by Simon_Jester »

PainRack wrote:
It's true that these services improve the quality of one's healthcare, but it's not clear that they are worth the price. The US has taken the stance, both through its state subsidised plans Medicare and Medicaid, that combined account for half of all spending, and through its state mandated coverage laws for private plans, that every improvement is good and that as much should be provided as possible.
Not as simple as all that. What is covered and isn't is different from state to state based on 'need'. Seriously, I'm a foreigner, so why the fuck do I know your system better than you do?
Energiewende isn't an American, he's just a laissez-faire fundamentalist in love with the only system on Earth that could plausibly become laissez-faire fundamentalist. Or could do so, if it were allowed to decay just a little more.

Moreover, he's a foreigner who decides he knows how systems work because of ideology, and remembers only those facts that match his existing prejudices. You are a foreigner who wants to know how the system works, and remembers all facts, including those that surprise or disconcert you. Therefore, you will inevitably know more than he does.

America has many people like energiewende who were born here, and who are just as ignorant as he is, because living in a place doesn't teach you anything about it if you don't use your eyes and ears.
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That said, I think you ARE misunderstanding him on one point. His argument is that providing health care to extend the life expectancy of an old man with a serious disease by one year is expensive, while providing health care to the young and middle aged* is less expensive.

When he says "marginal effectiveness" he means that, say, treating congestive heart failure to extend the life of an octogenarian by a few months is not very cost-effective as a way of buying more quality of life. Not when compared to, say, setting a broken bone, or performing reconstructive surgery on a middle-aged woman with facial burn scars.

And he believes (rightly or wrongly) that the reason health care in the US is so stupidly expensive is because a great deal of money is being spent on the treatments that buy the elderly a few extra months of life. And that all the government-controlled systems in the rest of the civilized world (DEATH PANELS RARG) artificially limit the supply of such treatments, greatly reducing the financial per-patient cost of the system.
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*Which may or may not extend their life expectancy, it may just mean they can get back to work sooner or feel less back pain while doing so... but this is also part of quality of life.
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Re: The myth of HSA,healthcare and Singapore

Post by PainRack »

Simon_Jester wrote: That said, I think you ARE misunderstanding him on one point. His argument is that providing health care to extend the life expectancy of an old man with a serious disease by one year is expensive, while providing health care to the young and middle aged* is less expensive.

When he says "marginal effectiveness" he means that, say, treating congestive heart failure to extend the life of an octogenarian by a few months is not very cost-effective as a way of buying more quality of life. Not when compared to, say, setting a broken bone, or performing reconstructive surgery on a middle-aged woman with facial burn scars.

And he believes (rightly or wrongly) that the reason health care in the US is so stupidly expensive is because a great deal of money is being spent on the treatments that buy the elderly a few extra months of life. And that all the government-controlled systems in the rest of the civilized world (DEATH PANELS RARG) artificially limit the supply of such treatments, greatly reducing the financial per-patient cost of the system.
You see, I did assume that was his point, then he meandered off to talk about expensive drugs, limiting entry into the medical profession,malpractice suits and overuse of expensive more marginally effective machines.

The sequence of events resembled when I first found out my mom was schizo. Throw in a tangential point into the conversation, use words and then throw a curveball into the accepted meaning before descending into verbal salad, where you started spouting words related to the subject but with different meaning and without a logical link.
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Re: The myth of HSA,healthcare and Singapore

Post by PainRack »

As an aside, we been talking about supply restrictions without detailing what that means.

Simply put, the government restricts just how many doctors can enter the work force through licensing. how many hospitals could be opened and even the use of medical devices. The 'public interest' is protected, first back in 1979 when all graduating doctors are obligated to serve a mandatory term of service in Singapore(Back then, a good portion of the medical intake returned to Malaysia to practice).

And female doctors in 1979 were restricted from entering the service, because
1. Females tend to stop practising medicine after marriage.
2. They can't be assigned duties as freely as their male counterparts.
3. In subsequent years, the argument that more male doctors were required due to the military conscript requirements.

This decision was reversed only in 2003 when we racheted up medical education.

Similarly, the number of doctor intake was deliberately restricted, with no more than a few hundred places despite the thousands of applications. The universities had to set a cap of the top 15% for A levels for admission and even so, applicants were steered away from Medicine because in the words of ministers such as Balaji Sadsivan, we needed to spread our intellectual capabilities throughout the various industries and hence the government efforts to discourage medicine as a career.


In practice, all this served to cut labour costs because a deliberate low intake of doctors forced the hospitals to run mean, this while a mandatory term of service meant that the restructured hospitals could draw upon this labour pool without competing with each other in terms of wages. Its..... an unintended consequence of what happens when Singapore decided to prevent supplier induced demand by restricting the number of doctors, in any other economic situation, this would have resulted in an increase in labour costs as hospitals competed to draw in sufficient labour by increasing wages. Here, we made do and forced the profession to work harder.


Its one of the reasons why energie post is so confusing. On one hand, he seems to acknowledge this hidden gem by pointing out accurately that Singapore, like the UK 'restricted' supply(The UK restriction of dental care in particular was forced upon it by labour shortages). This helped to cut costs in the Singapore context although in the UK, it was the liberal immigrant of healthcare professionals that help prevented wage inflation.

Yet on the other, he beclaims that the US doesn't allow increased entry into the labour force as the reason WHY the US costs are higher........ and this in response to a claim that these services are of marginal effectiveness....... which I going to attribute to verbal salad.
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Re: The myth of HSA,healthcare and Singapore

Post by energiewende »

PainRack wrote:
And only the last has shit all to do with " provision of high cost services of marginal effectiveness." And even here........... its not that the machines are marginally effective. They are VERY effective. There's just the question of can we make do with something less, or do we need to upgrade so frequently.
No, all those things contribute.
NO mother fucker. WORDS. They have MEANING.

When you use the word High cost services of marginal effectiveness, you mean the US provides a lot of expensive services that work POORLY. You know, the definition of marginal effectiveness?
Effectiveness:the degree to which something is successful in producing a desired result; success.
Marginal: Barely within a lower standard or limit of quality

Just WHAT the fuck did you mean by the words marginal effectiveness there?
I think I understand your confusion. You believe that things work properly (as in, perform their function as intended) or improperly, and that this is the same as things being effective or ineffective respectively. The things that the US spends money on work properly - MRI machines do indeed work - but that is not the same as them having a high effectiveness.

For instance, if you use a CAT scan to diagnose my cancer, perhaps I have a 20% 10 year chance of survival. On the other hand, if you use an MRI machine, perhaps that increases to 22%. If the MRI scan cost $10,000 and the CAT scan cost $100, then we can say that an expensive procedure that has worked properly has nonetheless produced only a marginal increase in treatment effectiveness. The numbers are invented, but to illustrate the principle.

Now it turns out that practically all healthcare spending suffers from rapidly diminishing returns like this. So the more cost effective system, assuming that non-healthcare contributors like food, clean water supply and sanitation are working properly, is likely to be whichever spends less money. UK and Singapore both have strong downward pressures on healthcare supply, so they have comparatively cost efficient systems. US has strong upward pressures on both state and private spending, so it has a remarkably cost inefficient system. In the US, this system also prices a lot of people out of the market entirely so that they can't even access the cheap, cost efficient treatments, which is the proximal cause of the current problems.
Seriously. Are you aware of the concept called verbal salad ?
My mom when schizio made more sense than you did in your entire post history in this thread!
Have you considered that your English reading ability may be more modest than you assume?

Also, if you are quoting my posts and immediately cutting the sentences up for separate rebuttal, that would explain a lot, like your failure to understand that the last three paragraphs of my first post were a discussion of the consequences of unclear definition of need, rather than totally separate points I moved onto without explanation. Especially as you seem kind of angry when you reply, just take a deep breath and read the whole thing through again. I am not actually trying to attack you!
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Re: The myth of HSA,healthcare and Singapore

Post by PainRack »

energiewende wrote: I think I understand your confusion. You believe that things work properly (as in, perform their function as intended) or improperly, and that this is the same as things being effective or ineffective respectively. The things that the US spends money on work properly - MRI machines do indeed work - but that is not the same as them having a high effectiveness.

For instance, if you use a CAT scan to diagnose my cancer, perhaps I have a 20% 10 year chance of survival. On the other hand, if you use an MRI machine, perhaps that increases to 22%. If the MRI scan cost $10,000 and the CAT scan cost $100, then we can say that an expensive procedure that has worked properly has nonetheless produced only a marginal increase in treatment effectiveness. The numbers are invented, but to illustrate the principle.

Now it turns out that practically all healthcare spending suffers from rapidly diminishing returns like this. So the more cost effective system, assuming that non-healthcare contributors like food, clean water supply and sanitation are working properly, is likely to be whichever spends less money. UK and Singapore both have strong downward pressures on healthcare supply, so they have comparatively cost efficient systems. US has strong upward pressures on both state and private spending, so it has a remarkably cost inefficient system. In the US, this system also prices a lot of people out of the market entirely so that they can't even access the cheap, cost efficient treatments, which is the proximal cause of the current problems.
Words. They have MEANING. You kept jumping between various points, believing that these are equally linked or form a coherent picture, they don't. The rapidity of you jumping between things that have no link........... In other words. Verbal salad.

Let's go through this again.

1. You claimed that Singapore and the UK restricted "supply", the US doesn't.
2. A follow up paragraph argued that the US viewed a healthcare need highly, hence, it provided services of 'marginal effectiveness'.
3. Since Singapore uses a consumer driven healthcare market, utilisation of 'services of marginal effectiveness' are lower because Singaporeans don't pay for them.

The reply was this. You over simplified the nature of the healthcare markets and decisions. US costs are higher not because they are the only ones which deliver expensive care with 'diminishing returns'. ALL the healthcare services do it. Singapore in particular does it as well.
Rather, its because they deliver such expensive care........ at a very high prices.

You THEN magically assumed that well, said expensive care is expensive, because they're not as effective.

And you're STILL doing it.

Note: You STILL haven't posted what you meant by healthcare needs. Its getting extremely irritating because you're under this delusion that healthcare needs are 'subjective' in value and by changing the framing of need, you change the consumption. The definition of healthcare needs gets very complex for the UK because it is a state owned and operated apparatus. For other countries like Germany, the system is single payer where the state pay the bills.

To..... simplify the question, Singapore requires high co-payments and deductibles from their patients. However, as I already explicitly stated in my post, this does not mean that Singaporean patients exert any major effect on their healthcare decisions. Granted, the term used was health behaviours because its easier to show that even for decisions wholly under the person control, they aren't using it.

Its also why they reduced SUPPLY, so as to prevent supply induced demand.


Now: The WEIRD thing is, you insisted that this is a consequence of healthcare financing, even though the whole point of the OP was to show that this has absolutely nothing to do with.

You then consistently abused terms. What you said has nothing to do with 'supply'. If the patients and doctors want to do a more expensive scan, then its 'demand'. Supply refers to the existence and creation of more expensive machines, more expensive drugs, more expensive doctors, NOT the use and consumption of it.

Are you honestly trying to argue that a link between demand and supply exists here? Then SAY THAT.
think I understand your confusion. You believe that things work properly (as in, perform their function as intended) or improperly, and that this is the same as things being effective or ineffective respectively. The things that the US spends money on work properly - MRI machines do indeed work - but that is not the same as them having a high effectiveness.
No, I did not. Again, words, they have a fucking meaning.

Marginal effectiveness means exactly what I said it means, things with increasingly less effectiveness .What you posted?Over pay for liability mitigation(is it that fucking difficult to use the word malpractice insurance?) has NOTHING to do with this. Especially when in reality, tort forms a minute portion of hospital costs.
For instance, if you use a CAT scan to diagnose my cancer, perhaps I have a 20% 10 year chance of survival. On the other hand, if you use an MRI machine, perhaps that increases to 22%. If the MRI scan cost $10,000 and the CAT scan cost $100, then we can say that an expensive procedure that has worked properly has nonetheless produced only a marginal increase in treatment effectiveness. The numbers are invented, but to illustrate the principle.

Now it turns out that practically all healthcare spending suffers from rapidly diminishing returns like this. So the more cost effective system, assuming that non-healthcare contributors like food, clean water supply and sanitation are working properly, is likely to be whichever spends less money. UK and Singapore both have strong downward pressures on healthcare supply, so they have comparatively cost efficient systems. US has strong upward pressures on both state and private spending, so it has a remarkably cost inefficient system. In the US, this system also prices a lot of people out of the market entirely so that they can't even access the cheap, cost efficient treatments, which is the proximal cause of the current problems.
1. Things don't work that way......... The thing is, I don't want to nitpick analogies. But the fucking problem is that you over simplified the topic so much that its no longer connected with reality.

2. Let's take it from the theoretical system first. Your argument is that the US has a high medical inflation rate because it lacks the same effective cost controls that Singapore and the UK has. You attempt to argue that this is because of the restriction in supply for both systems, in Singapore by market forces, in the UK by political consensus.

You attribute this to the HSA system.

I already answered this point in my OP. I know its long, but essentially, the implementation of Medisave had no impact on hospital costs, rising from 11% to 13%, an entirely normal rate of medical inflation for Singapore. Its..... impossible to forecast whether Medisave retarded the growth in medical inflation but if so, its not working very well anymore as inflation has risen to 5.5% and is accelerating.


3. For the nuts and bolts rebuttal...... again, your post betrays no link to reality. The US attempted to arrest medical inflation with stuff like arresting Healthcare fraud and HMOs. Any impact on inflation was temporary and the fact remains that there are 3 drivers of inflation in the US system.

1. Increasing labour costs.
2. Increased drug costs.
3. Increased utilisation of advanced technologies.


But THESE ARE UNIVERSAL. Just what do you mean when you claim that the UK and Singapore restriction of supply successfully prevented these costs from spiraling? Its important to state this because the UK or Singapore didn't under-supply the market, what they did was attempt to create a more 'efficient' system that met the needs of the population.
The analogy is simply less inputs for more outputs. In the US, competition for the patient dollars might have driven up costs, its possible afterall to argue that the US has significant duplication of services in some markets in some regions and that its over-capacity explains why its faster to get an MRI appointment in the US than in some other countries.

However, the US is also the world leader in implementing health infomatics and economics to drive and create efficiency. From Diagnostic Related Groupings, the change from fee for service to HMOs, all this combined to create a climate where you have to be more efficient and effective if you want to keep your profit share healthy. However, the free market can't change things like its fixed labour costs, which is the bulk of a hospital operating costs. HMOs and the like tried vertical intergration to drive down drug prices, hell, Bush Plan B also helped........ but none of this is helped by 'restricting' supply. Supply has NOTHING to do with this.

Its amazing that you can bemoan restricted entry into the labour markets as the reason for the US high costs while trying to claim that the UK and Singapore 'restricted supply' didn't. Its even more fantastic that you imagine that high entry costs is linked to 'marginal effectiveness'.

Lastly, you ignored how the US is actually the pioneer for driving efficiency and effectiveness amongst the 3 systems. The most expensive patient comes from those with chronic diseases. If treated episodically, especially for the elderly, costs spiral, the health outcome is sub optimal and results in very expensive interventions. The classic example is that of a patient with hypertension developing heart disease that require a bypass surgery and rehab to resolve. Early intervention to control blood pressure reduces the risk of heart disease and the need for expensive surgery.

Of the three, the US, via its managed care organisations created Chronic Disease Management Program...... the UK piloted the expert program in 2004 and Singapore started it in 2006. Amongst the three, the US is actually the country which appears to have 'best' handled this situation, at least, the HMOs which did it successfully kept it up to conclusion... It gets even more amusing because the Singapore copied it cost controls wholesale from the US, from DRGs and of course, our long awaited National Electronic Health Record.


And how does healthcare financing change any of this? The Singaporean lesson was that it didn't, hence, strong government intervention was needed.
Also, if you are quoting my posts and immediately cutting the sentences up for separate rebuttal, that would explain a lot, like your failure to understand that the last three paragraphs of my first post were a discussion of the consequences of unclear definition of need, rather than totally separate points I moved onto without explanation. Especially as you seem kind of angry when you reply, just take a deep breath and read the whole thing through again. I am not actually trying to attack you!
Really? So, which fantasy post did you draw the fact that I desire Singapore provide more things akin to the US system?

So....... you didn't read my OP, you created your own fantasy scenario and spun bullshit out of thin air, just HOW the fuck do you think this makes you look better?
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