Programming As A Foreign Language?

[hongi]

I don't think Chinese or Russians really need the foreign languages that much either. Latin Americans, likewise- because Spanish is a major world language and they can travel far and wide while remaining in the Spanish-speaking sphere.

It's not so much about travel. Latinos can travel around to a lot of countries without getting into trouble because they speak the same language, but the Latinos I've met, just like the Chinese I've met, are desperate to learn English because it'll get them the jobs they want, within their own country even.

That is the advantage of speaking the world lingua franca. If the world lingua franca switched to Spanish, then it wouldn't matter that most Americans don't travel outside America, because Spanish would still become incredibly important for Americans to learn. But because English is on top of the world, Americans can afford to be complacent.

America may be exceptional, if it's true that Americans don't travel so much to other countries and their education system is all screwed up and their country rewards monolingualism so much. But I don't see that as a good thing.

It's not out of spite that I want the world lingua franca to be Spanish or Chinese or something else. I just want Americans and Australians and the Brits to understand what it feels like to have that overwhelming power that makes billions of people want to speak like them.

[Simon_Jester]

It's not a good thing. Honestly, the problem is that our education system is so fucked up, first by the role of urban poverty in the late 20th century, then by the utterly nuts things we did trying to 'fix' that problem with massive standardized testing and dumbing-down and pressure to raise graduation rates in the early 21st century. It's still possible for us to educate individual children well, to run individual schools well, but collectively things are a mess.

Everything else that American schools do only makes sense in light of that problem. It's not exceptionalism per se, unless you think "Jesus our system is fucked up" is exceptionalism.

[Edi]

I'm not saying that you should have students study multiple foreign languages for many years, but it is helpful, especially for those who have any sort of gift for it. Requiring one foreign language for multiple years is not an undue burden and has far more benefits than not having any foreign languages. As Broomstick pointed out, mastery is not required, functional proficiency (even if you utterly mangle the grammar) is sufficient for a lot of good and it is easy to recall and improve on later as long as you have the foundation.

We are required to choose one foreign language in the third grade. A second one (English or Swedish) or a third one (both English and Swedish, if your first pick was something else) become mandatory at seventh grade. Swedish is mandatory here because it is an official language due to history, no matter that only about 6% of the population speaks it as a first language. If you wish, you can also pick one or two more languages as optional studies at eighth grade and grades 10-12 (if you go to high school instead of the vocational route) have a fairly wide selection of languages on offer, depending on school (ranging from French, German, Italian, Spanish, Russian and possibly also Chinese in some places).

True, Finland is a small country and we need language skills, especially since our language is completely impenetrable to those whose native languages are Indo-European.

I am quite a bit more linguistically gifted than average, which has allowed me to achieve (nearly) native fluency in English in addition to having lesser fluency in some others. My spoken English needs practice to sand off the edges, since I don't get to speak it enough, but I can think and understand in the language and often have trouble actually translating between Finnish and English. The other languages I understand are, in order of descending proficiency, Italian, Swedish and German and I have some very rudimentary knowledge of Thai (enough for some basic phrases and constructions and to recognize some words even out of rapid Thai speech, though I'd need a lot more study and practice to be able to hold even a basic conversation).

It is also true that having a wide palette of mandatory languages would have to come at the expense of something else, but our school system is not exactly shabby on math and physics either, even if not at the very top. Personally, I have no trouble understanding up to intermediate math and physics stuff when it is written out for me, though applying that same math is a lot harder. I need to seriously work at math and physics to get anywhere near the same results as I can get with languages for comparatively little effort. However, I know several people who can run rings around advanced math and physics and who have great difficulty with languages, because their gifts run to other directions than mine. I also know a few prodigies who have no trouble with either discipline, but they are pretty exceptional folks all around.

However, the contention that Americans don't really need to learn other languages in school is ludicrous on its face. Lack of it will lock people out of options and deprive them of skills (cognitive skills related to learning languages) that it is impossible to acquire later on if they are not practiced in childhood. Some exceptional people may be able to learn foreign languages as adults and even learn them well even if they never did study any before, but they are few and far between because of the way the language acquisition and retention mechanisms of the human brain work. However, if the US really does want to shoot itself in the foot in this regard, I expect they will. At the end of the day, it has virtually zero impact on my life, so in that sense I don't give a damn. I just happen to hate seeing such wasted potential.

[Simon_Jester]

I'm not saying that you should have students study multiple foreign languages for many years, but it is helpful, especially for those who have any sort of gift for it. Requiring one foreign language for multiple years is not an undue burden and has far more benefits than not having any foreign languages. As Broomstick pointed out, mastery is not required, functional proficiency (even if you utterly mangle the grammar) is sufficient for a lot of good and it is easy to recall and improve on later as long as you have the foundation.

It's beneficial, I do not for a moment deny it. I don't think anyone did. It may not pay off fully for every child in a large country with a linguistic monoculture, but it does pay off.

My first point is simply that a lot of things are beneficial. Nearly anything children can possibly learn is beneficial. Saying "children have the option of learning computer programming instead of foreign language and still get to graduate" is not the same as simply deleting the foreign language requirement and leaving nothing in its place. Or the same as saying that children are no longer required to do something; the majority of kids will probably still take Spanish over Programming in my opinion.

So talking about how foreign language instruction is good doesn't automatically negate the idea that computer programming is also good, and high school graduates leaving high school with the beginnings of at least one highly employable skill is good, and that high school students learning to construct very logical, structured programs as a graduation requirement may not be a completely bad thing.

My second point is that different societies have different practical needs, because the goal of education in a school is to make sure the children going to that school become as well-educated and as fit to meet the challenges of their own life as possible. Not to make sure that all children everywhere in the world are stamped out in the same template. So while foreign language education may be a vital thing in some places, and a nice thing in all places, it could still not be a vital thing in all places.

However, the contention that Americans don't really need to learn other languages in school is ludicrous on its face. Lack of it will lock people out of options and deprive them of skills (cognitive skills related to learning languages) that it is impossible to acquire later on if they are not practiced in childhood. Some exceptional people may be able to learn foreign languages as adults and even learn them well even if they never did study any before, but they are few and far between because of the way the language acquisition and retention mechanisms of the human brain work. However, if the US really does want to shoot itself in the foot in this regard, I expect they will. At the end of the day, it has virtually zero impact on my life, so in that sense I don't give a damn. I just happen to hate seeing such wasted potential.

I think the problem is that in terms of cognitive development, US foreign language education is overwhelmingly done too late, in high school. By that time, the brain isn't finished developing but it's getting close, and the children have developed most of the bad academic habits they're ever going to have.

I got started on this relatively early because of the schools I attended- many did not.

At the same time, high school is also the only place where complex courses requiring abstract thought and serious background skills can be taught at all (i.e. chemistry or advanced history courses).

So there's a lot of different things all vying for time in the high schools, things we'd like to teach but simply don't have the classroom hours to do. It would make far more sense to move the foreign language instruction to lower levels, but that raises its own problems and is contrary to some stupid customs I don't understand.

[Broomstick]

My first point is simply that a lot of things are beneficial. Nearly anything children can possibly learn is beneficial. Saying "children have the option of learning computer programming instead of foreign language and still get to graduate" is not the same as simply deleting the foreign language requirement and leaving nothing in its place.

I guess one of my objections is that putting it that way implies that natural languages and programming languages are equivalent and they are not.

I think the problem is that in terms of cognitive development, US foreign language education is overwhelmingly done too late, in high school. By that time, the brain isn't finished developing but it's getting close, and the children have developed most of the bad academic habits they're ever going to have.

I got started on this relatively early because of the schools I attended- many did not.

At the same time, high school is also the only place where complex courses requiring abstract thought and serious background skills can be taught at all (i.e. chemistry or advanced history courses).

So there's a lot of different things all vying for time in the high schools, things we'd like to teach but simply don't have the classroom hours to do. It would make far more sense to move the foreign language instruction to lower levels, but that raises its own problems and is contrary to some stupid customs I don't understand.

In the US the perception grew up at some point that language study is one of those "complex courses requiring abstract thought and serious background skills" and thus is appropriately taught alongside similar courses in high school. Since starting language study at that point in life does make it harder than starting earlier it IS harder than it might otherwise be which then reinforces the notion.

[Simon_Jester]

My first point is simply that a lot of things are beneficial. Nearly anything children can possibly learn is beneficial. Saying "children have the option of learning computer programming instead of foreign language and still get to graduate" is not the same as simply deleting the foreign language requirement and leaving nothing in its place.

While learning natural or programming languages are not entirely equivalent, they do at least both share the important feature of promoting and encouraging the child to develop new intellectual faculties, although in different directions.

And I guess one of my objections is that putting it that way implies that natural languages and programming languages are equivalent and they are not.

Under the circumstances (there is probably a state or national-mandated foreign language requirement), this may be the only way they can say "children have the option of learning programming instead of Spanish/French and still get to graduate."

I think the problem is that in terms of cognitive development, US foreign language education is overwhelmingly done too late, in high school. By that time, the brain isn't finished developing but it's getting close, and the children have developed most of the bad academic habits they're ever going to have.

I got started on this relatively early because of the schools I attended- many did not.

At the same time, high school is also the only place where complex courses requiring abstract thought and serious background skills can be taught at all (i.e. chemistry or advanced history courses).

So there's a lot of different things all vying for time in the high schools, things we'd like to teach but simply don't have the classroom hours to do. It would make far more sense to move the foreign language instruction to lower levels, but that raises its own problems and is contrary to some stupid customs I don't understand.

In the US the perception grew up at some point that language study is one of those "complex courses requiring abstract thought and serious background skills" and thus is appropriately taught alongside similar courses in high school. Since starting language study at that point in life does make it harder than starting earlier it IS harder than it might otherwise be which then reinforces the notion.

That would explain a lot, yes.

Personally, I think the right time to start teaching a foreign language is, well, whenever the child learns to read and write with reasonable competence. That's about all that's needed as far as I can see.

[Ralin]

I got left behind while I was mulling over everyone else's posts, but...

I guess one of my objections is that putting it that way implies that natural languages and programming languages are equivalent and they are not.

Yeah, I don't think anyone here really buys that argument. I'd bet decent money that the senators pushing it don't either. It's just a pretext to allow changes that I agree would probably be in the best interests of the students.

[Thanas]

Yes, let us allow american foreign language skills deteriorate even further. No use in getting to know all those other cultures, right?

[Flagg]

Honestly, as someone who from fucking preschool on was being taught Spanish and couldn't count past six in said language if you held a gun to my head... I think it's something to consider. Granted I have a diagnosed math learning disability and supposedly math is just another form of language (according to scientists who may just be oversimplifying things), so my opinion on this may just be heavily skewed.

[Simon_Jester]

Yes, let us allow american foreign language skills deteriorate even further. No use in getting to know all those other cultures, right?

I learned more about other cultures in social studies than I ever did in language classes. About all I learned about Latin America from my Spanish classes was random words for food.

Again, I'm not saying this move is desirable, but I can easily see how a school district does it. Especially one trying to at least sort of fulfill its obligation to teach students useful, employable skills, while fulfilling the letter of state and federal dictates that don't allow for any real flexibility in how local school systems get the job done.

If anyone wants to argue that this is a utilitarian negative, that programming class is worse for you than the language classes are and should not be allowed as an alternative, fine. But there's no point in saying "but damn it, learning foreign languages is GOOD!" for the tenth time. We know it's good, and the Louisiana district shows no sign of abolishing its foreign language classes. It's allowing students to get a high school diploma without foreign language credit IF they take computer programming, but that's about it.

[ray245]

Yes, let us allow american foreign language skills deteriorate even further. No use in getting to know all those other cultures, right?

I learned more about other cultures in social studies than I ever did in language classes. About all I learned about Latin America from my Spanish classes was random words for food.

I find it highly unlikely that you would learn enough about a foreign culture in a social studies class than actually having the ability to read articles written in a foreign language. For example, not having the ability to read Chinese means that you are entirely reliant on news source to provide you with information about what is going on in China. This meant your views of China is likely to be clouded by the subjective biasses of your source. There are Chinese news sites that publish their views in English, but nothing beats having the ability to read the comments and forums in Chinese.

[Batman]

Presupposes you learn enough in foreign language classes to actually do that. What I think Simon is saying here is that while social studies classes gave him at least some understanding of foreign cultures, foreign language studies gave him none and an at best marginal understanding of the language.

And I'm not sure that for a westerner, there's such a thing as being able to marginally understand Chinese the way Broomstick argued is still beneficial for spanish or french. Nevermind culture, we're talking about a completely different language structure (leave alone alphabet). For most languages encountered in western countries, we can at least read the words even if we have no clue what they mean, and for a lot of them the grammar isn't all that different. If memory serves, Japanese doesn't have tenses the way we know them.

[Flagg]

Presupposes you learn enough in foreign language classes to actually do that. What I think Simon is saying here is that while social studies classes gave him at least some understanding of foreign cultures, foreign language studies gave him none and an at best marginal understanding of the language.

And I'm not sure that for a westerner, there's such a thing as being able to marginally understand Chinese the way Broomstick argued is still beneficial for spanish or french. Nevermind culture, we're talking about a completely different language structure (leave alone alphabet). For most languages encountered in western countries, we can at least read the words even if we have no clue what they mean, and for a lot of them the grammar isn't all that different. If memory serves, Japanese doesn't have tenses the way we know them.

Funny then that a good friend of mine from AU is learning Mandarin and says it's relatively easy though he thinks he needs a professionally taught class to be really proficient.

[Batman]

'I'm not sure.' NOT 'I don't believe it's possible'. Besides, this is only what, the 17,000th time I turned out to be wrong?

As someone who has zero experience with asian languages I assumed the massively different written language would be a problem. I was apparently mistaken, at least in this particular case. Duly noted.

[Ralin]

If you can handle the phonetics and the writing system Chinese isn't that hard.

But that's a pretty fucking big if.

[Batman]

I dunno about anybody else but as somebody who has all his life been using and is used to the relatively simple A-Z (occasionally including special characters) alphabet yes, I would have assumed the entirely indecipherable with that background assortment of asian languages to be harder to learn than, say, italian.

[Ralin]

I dunno about anybody else but as somebody who has all his life been using and is used to the relatively simple A-Z (occasionally including special characters) alphabet yes, I would have assumed the entirely indecipherable with that background assortment of asian languages to be harder to learn than, say, italian.

Learning a new alphabet isn’t all that hard. I guarantee most people in this thread could learn kana in a week if they were motivated.

Chinese characters are another story, but they're not as hard as people assume. I find the pronunciation a lot harder.

[Broomstick]

For most languages encountered in western countries, we can at least read the words even if we have no clue what they mean, and for a lot of them the grammar isn't all that different.

I can actually read a fair number of Chinese ideograms, that's one of the interesting things about there being a symbol for each word rather than using a phonetic alphabet. Granted, that is probably most useful for ordering off a menu in a Chinatown and not for a heck of a lot else.

Yes, I think you CAN have a useful rudimentary use of Chinese. Likely one of the biggest problems for Indo-European speakers is the vocal tones, but it's surmountable.

If memory serves, Japanese doesn't have tenses the way we know them.

Your mind can adjust. Sure, it's a little harder outside of your familiar grammars but it's possible. Language acquisition is as natural as walking for for human beings, at least when infants and toddlers. A little harder for us adults but the vast majority of people can acquire some facility in foreign languages if they are motivated enough. Not everyone feels that motivation, of course.

[Flagg]

I tried German a few times. I think I'd need to be totally immersed in a language to be able to learn it.

[Broomstick]

That generally is the best way to learn a language, by total immersion. It's not always a practical method to employ, however.

[Simon_Jester]

I learned more about other cultures in social studies than I ever did in language classes. About all I learned about Latin America from my Spanish classes was random words for food.

I find it highly unlikely that you would learn enough about a foreign culture in a social studies class than actually having the ability to read articles written in a foreign language.

Except that I didn't read such articles in my Spanish classes, and by the time I was mature enough to have any real interest in goings-on on a continent I'd never planned to visit... well, I'd already forgotten enough of my Spanish that reading the articles would be an incredibly painstaking chore.

And that's the experience of someone who got a pretty good high school education by US standards, and who is unusually interested in other societies.

[ray245]

I learned more about other cultures in social studies than I ever did in language classes. About all I learned about Latin America from my Spanish classes was random words for food.

I find it highly unlikely that you would learn enough about a foreign culture in a social studies class than actually having the ability to read articles written in a foreign language.

Except that I didn't read such articles in my Spanish classes, and by the time I was mature enough to have any real interest in goings-on on a continent I'd never planned to visit... well, I'd already forgotten enough of my Spanish that reading the articles would be an incredibly painstaking chore.

And that's the experience of someone who got a pretty good high school education by US standards, and who is unusually interested in other societies.

You don't need to read these articles in a language class, what's more important is acquiring the skills to read them in the first place. It is still relatively easier for someone to refresh a language they have studied before rather than learning it from scratch.

However, at the end of the day a social studies class can never replace having the language skills.

[Simon_Jester]

A social studies class can never replace what you could do with full command of the language.

If, because your 'foreign language education' was limited to two years of high school class, and because you don't get around to solidifying your command of the language immediately after you learn the basics... it doesn't matter. You lose the language skills, if you ever had them, and have at most a sort of stump that they could conceivably grow back from one day. If you bother to relearn them, which the great majority of people in the US simply do not.

So as a brute practical matter, I can and have learned more about many Spanish and German-speaking countries and places from reading English-language text about them than I have by reading information in Spanish and German. And this will probably remain true unless something very unforeseen happens.