Ukraine War Thread

[IronStar]

Yesterday the chairman of Russian parliament called chairman of Ukraine parliament Turchinov and stated, that russian army will act SHOULD there be hostilities of Kiev committed to Crimean population
http://www.unn.com.ua/ru/news/1311243-g ... -gromadyan
That is Ukraine international news site in case you try to accuse me again of some shit.
There was also info from Russian mass-media(i know that you wont believe it) that there is no any particular date of military operation.
Again- there were numerous threats of "applying force to intolerable separatists" from Kiev officials, so....
There are block stations organized be people in Sevastopol- yesterday one of them prevented attempt to bring in Sevastopol explosives -http://sevispolkom.info/informatsionnoi ... hieniie-2/ - information from sevastopol executive committee which was organized by protesters earlier.

A few hours after cameras were gone the squares were empty like this:

How pathetic was that.....do you know it doesnt prove shit? That there were mass anti maidan demonstrations before that russian army stuff.
That earlier many attempts by right sector to capture government buildings in east cities failed? And that number of maidan supporters was quite pathetic there.
Donetsk, Lugansk, Yalta, Odessa, Sevastopol, Kharkov, Dnepropetrovsk- all this is joke right?

Russian/Seperatist Gangs are apparently hunting down pro-ukrainian politicians

Oh, now you are talking.....now i see everything. You are okay with pro Maidan fascists doing worse things(and this your attempt to refute article from fuckin opposition party s deputy Moskal about right sector figters was pathetic- in this review he says that that is WIDESPREAD in Kiev and other cities where maidan battle squads are active). I ve provided info earlier about beatings, it was not enough for you.
Thanas, is THIS democracy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLgFl21RJHo
Volin governor and pro-maidans
Or this

Yaroslav Karachentsev, Ukraine communist party member caught by fascists, brought to Maidan and SEVERELY beaten
Or this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0wW0gxLe-o
Pro-maidan fascists reacting extremely fast to people with opinion different to theirs.
I can continue this, but i really see no reason to do it.
And about west and democracy.... west was okay with Saakashvili in Georgia, west was Okay(and backed) pro fascist rusofobian Yushenko and were okay with him so.....

You know, I really have nothing at all to tell you anymore.......

[mr friendly guy]

This is slightly off topic, but why did the USSR transfer the crimea from the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic to Ukraine in 1954? Hind sight is 20-20 of course, but some of this unpleasantness could have been avoided if this didn't happen.

[Mange]

Rather than dialogue, Russia has opted for military aggression and that with a language that sounds as if it's taken directly from the 30's Germany. Russia must sit down and talk with all parties to find a constructive solution.

[K. A. Pital]

Talk to whom? The Crimean rebels will not accept the government in Kiev. Forces are deserting en masse and de-facto siding with the pro-Russian rebels. With whom can Russia talk? With a government that it does not even consider legitimate, but has called coupists?

[Lolpah]

Ukraine mobilises armed forces

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/ ... E820140302

Urkraine[sic] mobilizes for war, calls up reserves

(Reuters) - Ukraine mobilized on Sunday for war and called up its reserves, after Russian President Vladimir Putin threatened to invade in the biggest confrontation between Moscow and the West since the Cold War.

Ukraine's security council ordered the general staff to immediately put all armed forces on highest alert, the council's secretary Andriy Parubiy announced. The Defense Ministry was ordered to conduct the call-up, potentially of all men up to 40 in a country that still has universal male conscription.

Russian forces who have already bloodlessly seized Crimea - an isolated Black Sea peninsula where most of the population are ethnic Russian and Moscow has a naval base - tried to disarm the small Ukrainian contingents there on Sunday. Some Ukrainian commanders refused to give up weapons and bases were surrounded.

Of potentially even greater concern are eastern swathes of the country, where most of the ethnic Ukrainians speak Russian as a native language. Those areas saw violent protests on Saturday, with pro-Moscow demonstrators hoisting flags at government buildings and calling for Russia to defend them.

Putin's declaration that he has the right to invade his neighbor - for which he quickly received the unanimous approval of his parliament - brought the prospect of war to a country of 46 million people on the ramparts of central Europe.

"President Obama expressed his deep concern over Russia's clear violation of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity, which is a breach of international law," the White House said after the leaders spoke for 90 minutes on Saturday.

Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseny Yatseniuk, leading a pro-European government that took power after Moscow ally Viktor Yanukovich fled a week ago, said Russian armed action "would be the beginning of war and the end of any relations between Ukraine and Russia".

Foreign Minister Andriy Deshchytsya said he sent a request to NATO to "examine all possibilities to protect the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine". Ukraine also appealed for help to Britain and the United States, as co-signatories with Moscow to a 1994 accord guaranteeing Ukraine's security after the breakup of the Soviet Union.

NATO ambassadors were due to meet in Brussels on Sunday. Washington has proposed sending monitors to Ukraine under the flags of the United Nations or Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, bodies where Moscow would have a veto.

Washington and its allies have suspended plans to attend a G8 summit in Sochi, where Putin had just finished staging his $50 billion winter Olympic games.

"This is probably the most dangerous situation in Europe since the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968," said a Western official on condition of anonymity. "Realistically, we have to assume the Crimea is in Russian hands. The challenge now is to deter Russia from taking over the Russian-speaking east of Ukraine."

POWERLESS

In Crimea, Ukraine's tiny military contingent was powerless to oppose Russian forces, who bore no insignia on their uniforms but drove vehicles with Russian plates and seized government buildings, airports and other locations in the past three days.

Russian news agencies reported that Moscow's troops had disarmed Ukrainians at several small bases.

Igor Mamchev, a Ukrainian navy colonel at a small base near the regional capital Simferopol, told Ukraine's Channel 5 television he had refused to surrender.

"A truck with troops of the Russian Federation, armed with rifles, helmets and bullet-proof vests arrived at our checkpoint and suggested we give up our weapons and accept the protection of the armed forces of the Russian Federation," he said.

"I replied that, as I am a member of the armed forces of Ukraine, under orders of the Ukrainian navy, there could be no discussion of disarmament. In case of any attempt to enter the military base, we will use all means, up to lethal force.

"We are military people, who have given our oath to the people of Ukraine and will carry out our duty until the end."

Ukrainian marines were barricaded into a base in Feodosia, a Crimean port. Russia appealed for them to back the "legitimate" - pro-Russian - regional leadership.

Their commander, Dmytro Delyatytskiy, told Ukraine's Channel 5 by telephone Russian troops had demanded they give up their weapons by 10 a.m. and they refused.

"We have orders," he said. "We are preparing our defenses."

Elsewhere on the occupied peninsula, the Russian forces appeared to be assuming a lower profile on Sunday after the pro-Moscow Crimean leader announced overnight that the situation was now "normalized". Russians had vanished from outside a small Ukrainian guard post in the port of Balaclava that they had surrounded with armored vehicles on Saturday.

The Russian forces had been greeted cheerfully by many, with a wedding party honking its horns and people snapping photos. But there were also some voices of worry.

"No one is attacking us, so why do we need protection - much less armed protection? They are filling up Balaclava with troops," said Olga Karpova, 32.

A barricade in front of the Crimean regional parliament, which the Russians seized on Thursday, had been dismantled. A single armored vehicle with two soldiers drove through the main square, where people were snapping photos.

Putin asked parliament on Saturday to approve force "in connection with the extraordinary situation in Ukraine, the threat to the lives of citizens of the Russian Federation, our compatriots" and to protect the Black Sea Fleet in Crimea.

Putin said his request for authorization to use force in Ukraine would last "until the normalization of the socio-political situation in that country".

His justification - the need to protect Russian citizens - was the same as he used to launch a 2008 invasion of Georgia, where Russian forces seized two breakaway regions.

In Russia, state controlled media have portrayed Yanukovich's removal as a coup by dangerous terrorists and extremists, funded by the West.

Russian officials have repeatedly described Ukraine's Russian speakers - some of whom have Russian passports - as facing urgent danger. Itar-Tass quoted Russian border guards as saying 675,000 people had fled Ukraine for Russia in the past two months and there were signs of a "humanitarian catastrophe".

In a statement posted online, the Kremlin said that Putin had told Obama "there are real threats to the life and health of Russian citizens and compatriots on Ukrainian territory". Moscow reserved the right to intervene on behalf of Russian speakers anywhere they were threatened, Putin added.

FLAGS TORN DOWN

So far there has been no sign of Russian military action in Ukraine outside Crimea, the only part of the country with a majority that is ethnically Russian and which has often voiced separatist aims at times of tension between Moscow and Kiev.

A bigger risk would be conflict spreading to the rest of Ukraine, where the sides could not be easily kept apart. Demonstrations turned violent in eastern cities on Saturday.

Demonstrators flew Russian flags at government buildings in the cities of Kharkiv, Donetsk, Odessa and Dnipropetrovsk.

The worst violence took place in Kharkiv, where scores of people were wounded when thousands of pro-Russian activists, some brandishing axe handles and chains, stormed the regional government headquarters and fought pitched battles with a smaller number of supporters of Ukraine's new authorities.

In Donetsk, Yanukovich's home city, the local government has called for a referendum on the region's status, a move Kiev says is illegal. A pro-Russian "self-Defense" unit, which staged a big protest on Saturday, scheduled another for Sunday.

"We do not recognize the authorities in Kiev, they are not legitimate," protest leader Pavel Guberev thundered from a podium in Donetsk on Saturday.

Thousands of followers, holding a giant Russian flag and chanting "Russia, Russia" marched to the government headquarters and replaced the Ukrainian flag with Russia's.

(Additional reporting by Natalia Zinets, Pavel Polityuk, Timothy Heritage and Stephen Grey in Kiev, Lina Kushch in Donetsk, Peter Apps in London, Steve Holland and Phil Stewart in Washington and Lou Charbonneau at the United Nations; writing by Peter Graff; editing by Ralph Boulton and Philippa Fletcher)

[Mange]

Talk to whom? The Crimean rebels will not accept the government in Kiev. Forces are deserting en masse and de-facto siding with the pro-Russian rebels. With whom can Russia talk? With a government that it does not even consider legitimate, but has called coupists?

Of course Russia would call it that! Let's not forget that none of this would've happened if the former President hadn't let himself be intimidated by the threats coming from Moscow and instead had signed the agreement with the EU. Russia has absolutely no say on who governs Ukraine and has pledged itself to respect its territorial integrity. The Russian government seems to have an outdated geopolitical view of the world and an "either-or" thinking. If Russia would like to play a constructive role, rather than being the new schoolyard bully, they would join into talks. It's a good thing for the Baltic states that they joined the NATO so soon after the Soviet occupation of their countries were over.

[Broomstick]

I just want to be sure I understand one facet of this situation:

Russia keeps its Black Sea Fleet in Crimea, yes? And that is probably one of the biggest, if not the biggest, reason Russia gives a damn about the Ukraine, correct? So, maybe the Russians don't give a damn about who is actually in power in Kiev as long as they can keep control over Crimea so they still have a home for their ships, correct? Or am I missing something because I'm far from expert about the issues involved?

I'm wondering if there is a potential solution in a situation like Cuba and Guantanamo Bay, where the US retains control over that small slice of land - not that Cuba is happy about it, but the situation has stabilized and shooting is not expected to break out over the matter. Would Russia calm down if it had some sort of assurance its present assets/base in Crimea could continue business as usual?

Probably too simplistic a solution. And I'm pretty sure that no matter what that sort of compromise would leave a lot of people pissed off.

[The Kernel]

I think the bigger concern is the idea that Ukraine could be pushed away from the Soviet sphere of influence into the EU or worse yet become a full blown NATO member. Ukraine is a huge country of 45 million people right on the border of Russia and I image the last thing Putin wants is them becoming the premiere NATO ally of Eastern Europe. It would be like Mexico all of a sudden deciding to sign a defensive alliance with China.

[Lolpah]

I just want to be sure I understand one facet of this situation:

Russia keeps its Black Sea Fleet in Crimea, yes? And that is probably one of the biggest, if not the biggest, reason Russia gives a damn about the Ukraine, correct? So, maybe the Russians don't give a damn about who is actually in power in Kiev as long as they can keep control over Crimea so they still have a home for their ships, correct? Or am I missing something because I'm far from expert about the issues involved?

I'm wondering if there is a potential solution in a situation like Cuba and Guantanamo Bay, where the US retains control over that small slice of land - not that Cuba is happy about it, but the situation has stabilized and shooting is not expected to break out over the matter. Would Russia calm down if it had some sort of assurance its present assets/base in Crimea could continue business as usual?

Probably too simplistic a solution. And I'm pretty sure that no matter what that sort of compromise would leave a lot of people pissed off.

The problems are:
1) The entire Crimea isn't a Russian Naval Base. Neither is the entire city of Sevastopol, for that matter.
2) There is a (justified) nationalist interest in Russia and Crimea for Crimea to join Russia, since it has a majority of ethnically Russian population.
3) Guantanamo Bay is relatively small and uninhabited except for the military base. This is definitely not the case with Crimea.

[Mange]

My apologies, I would be in violation of local copyright laws by posting it in its entirety, but NY Books has an interesting piece on the background of the propaganda use of labelling the Maidan "fascist", "nazi" etc. NY Books

[K. A. Pital]

The only thing that holds those colonies together is Russia pouring money down the sink. In the case of Ossetia, Russia is investing about 5 billion rubles per annum for a nearly worthless stip of land. They cannot do the same for Crimea, nor can they continue on forever.

Crimea has not been poor. It is a net giver in the Ukrainian budget. Why wouldn't they remain a donor for the Russian budget? And please, I know you hate Ossetians, but why shouldn't they get money from Russia? They have suffered from the war and the last thing they need is to cut off the money supply and leave them with nothing. Weren't you all against leaving people in financial ruin, because it makes them more extremist?

It's a good thing for the Baltic states that they joined the NATO so soon after the Soviet occupation of their countries were over.

Good that they also shat on the rights of all Russian-born people there and made them to non-citizens with the exception of Lithuania. Yay for apartheid in the middle of Europe and Nazi parades!

Russia has absolutely no say on who governs Ukraine and has pledged itself to respect its territorial integrity.

Yup, but if Crimea rebels, Ukraine would have no say on that either unless it be willing to drown the place in blood. It's very simple.

NY Books has an interesting piece on the background of the propaganda use of labelling the Maidan "fascist", "nazi" etc.

All of the power ministries, where of course any coup-plotter would plant his own people, were led by professionals and Russian speakers.

Ukraine Defence Council is led by an old Ukrainian national-socialist (Parubiy), vice-chairman is Yarosh, who leads the "Right sector". Judiciary is controlled by a guy from "Svoboda". I'm sorry, but if you turn a blind eye to this, how can you even judge if the protest had or hadn't a fascist lean? The West wouldn't see a fascist in open day. The US saved members of Unit 731 from trial, who cut out the stomachs of people and then reattached the esophagus to the intestines and used biological weapons (even Nazis didn't fall that low). Tolerance of fascism is a well-known staple of nationalism - fascism is the child of nationalism, actually. From the very beginnings until this day. Since nationalism is growing more fashionable in the West proper, fascism isn't a great concern.

[fgalkin]

Last night, Yarosh had appealed to Doku Umarov (a wanted international terrorist) to attack Russians

"The statement points out that “many Ukrainians with arms in the hands” supported Chechen militants in their fight against Russians and “it is time to support Ukraine now.”"

RT, but I have seen the statement myself before it was removed, so I can confirm.

http://rt.com/news/yarosh-nationalist-a ... marov-380/


Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Mange]

Last night, Yarosh had appealed to Doku Umarov (a wanted international terrorist) to attack Russians

"The statement points out that “many Ukrainians with arms in the hands” supported Chechen militants in their fight against Russians and “it is time to support Ukraine now.”"

RT, but I have seen the statement myself before it was removed, so I can confirm.

http://rt.com/news/yarosh-nationalist-a ... marov-380/


Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

BBC reported quite a few hours ago that it appears it was a fake: BBC News Live Reporting (timestamp 09:45).

[Thanas]

The Crimean rebels will not accept the government in Kiev. Forces are deserting en masse and de-facto siding with the pro-Russian rebels.

If by deserting en masse you mean "being given the choice of disarming or joining the Russians" then yes.

Of course Russia would call it that! Let's not forget that none of this would've happened if the former President hadn't let himself be intimidated by the threats coming from Moscow and instead had signed the agreement with the EU. Russia has absolutely no say on who governs Ukraine and has pledged itself to respect its territorial integrity. The Russian government seems to have an outdated geopolitical view of the world and an "either-or" thinking. If Russia would like to play a constructive role, rather than being the new schoolyard bully, they would join into talks. It's a good thing for the Baltic states that they joined the NATO so soon after the Soviet occupation of their countries were over.

Indeed and with the situation being what it is in retrospect I can't blame the baltics for being weary of Russia. They apparently were very smart to demand loyalty tests by its minorities.

Thanas, what can we reasonably do?

We could arm Russia's other neighbors to the teeth with all sorts of goodies, reinstate plans for an Eastern European missile defense base and start all out economic war against Russia all with a justification we never had before. If we were determined to make this hurt for Putin we certainly could do so and I have to wonder if people are reading this situation all wrong. This act has the potential to thrust most of the old Soviet Republics even more firmly into the arms of NATO and the EU and I can't Russia getting anything significant out of this action.

Yeah but I don't think we should really confront Russia as in economic war. As to the missile defence base, that is just stupid and won't work. We should indeed encourage everybody who wants to leave the Russian sphere to do so and provide assistance.

EDIT: I am curious though if anyone could speak to exactly how much resistance the Ukranian military could put up if the Russians decide to do a full push to bring down the new government in Kiev. Obviously they can't win but Ukraine is much larger and more populated than Georgia and I seem to recall them being pretty well armed...what sort of force would the Russians need to take and hold the region?

A lot more money than Russia has.

Crimea has not been poor. It is a net giver in the Ukrainian budget. Why wouldn't they remain a donor for the Russian budget? And please, I know you hate Ossetians, but why shouldn't they get money from Russia? They have suffered from the war and the last thing they need is to cut off the money supply and leave them with nothing. Weren't you all against leaving people in financial ruin, because it makes them more extremist?

"I know you hate Ossetians" - really? Show me where I supported Georgia. GTFO with your stupid assumptions about motives.

I also did not say there is anything wrong with throwing money down the Rain, hey if Russia has too much then they can do what they want with it, but it is a financial drain.

Good that they also shat on the rights of all Russian-born people there and made them to non-citizens with the exception of Lithuania. Yay for apartheid in the middle of Europe and Nazi parades!

Do you realize how Putin's actions are the perfect pretext and justification for more of this crap? How could any country trust its Russian minority after what happened in the Crimea?

Ukraine Defence Council is led by an old Ukrainian national-socialist (Parubiy), vice-chairman is Yarosh, who leads the "Right sector". Judiciary is controlled by a guy from "Svoboda". I'm sorry, but if you turn a blind eye to this, how can you even judge if the protest had or hadn't a fascist lean? The West wouldn't see a fascist in open day. The US saved members of Unit 731 from trial, who cut out the stomachs of people and then reattached the esophagus to the intestines and used biological weapons (even Nazis didn't fall that low). Tolerance of fascism is a well-known staple of nationalism - fascism is the child of nationalism, actually. From the very beginnings until this day. Since nationalism is growing more fashionable in the West proper, fascism isn't a great concern.

And for the uptenth time, if the fascists were the one in control they would be in control rather than being the smaller coalition partner.

Last night, Yarosh had appealed to Doku Umarov (a wanted international terrorist) to attack Russians

"The statement points out that “many Ukrainians with arms in the hands” supported Chechen militants in their fight against Russians and “it is time to support Ukraine now.”"

RT, but I have seen the statement myself before it was removed, so I can confirm.

http://rt.com/news/yarosh-nationalist-a ... marov-380/


Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Fake. Even if it were not so, if Russia wants to encourage seperatists in other nations then other nations can do the same in Russia.

[fgalkin]

Last night, Yarosh had appealed to Doku Umarov (a wanted international terrorist) to attack Russians

"The statement points out that “many Ukrainians with arms in the hands” supported Chechen militants in their fight against Russians and “it is time to support Ukraine now.”"

RT, but I have seen the statement myself before it was removed, so I can confirm.

http://rt.com/news/yarosh-nationalist-a ... marov-380/


Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

BBC reported quite a few hours ago that it appears it was a fake: BBC News Live Reporting (timestamp 09:45).

It's not a fake. I've seen it. They claim the account was hacked, but no one knows for sure.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[The Kernel]

Yeah but I don't think we should really confront Russia as in economic war.

It certainly wouldn't be much skin off our teeth. But then we don't depend on Russia for gas the way Europe does.

As to the missile defence base, that is just stupid and won't work.

Putin seems to have been worried enough that it would be a threat that he pulled out all the stops to get the deal killed in the first place. The point of it is strategic leverage not to actually fight a war with.

We should indeed encourage everybody who wants to leave the Russian sphere to do so and provide assistance.

That's a very dangerous game to play--Russia isn't just going to give up their geopolitical spheres of influence.

[Mange]

It's a good thing for the Baltic states that they joined the NATO so soon after the Soviet occupation of their countries were over.

Good that they also shat on the rights of all Russian-born people there and made them to non-citizens with the exception of Lithuania. Yay for apartheid in the middle of Europe and Nazi parades!

Who has expressed joy for Nazi parades? Why are your posts always that unbalanced? Yes, people of Russian ancestry were subjected to discrimination, but that the situation has improved (otherwise they wouldn't have been able to join the EU). Let me also remind you that a number of ethnic Russians have chosen not to become citizens as that for example would require them to apply for a visa when visiting Russia.

[fgalkin]

It's a good thing for the Baltic states that they joined the NATO so soon after the Soviet occupation of their countries were over.

Good that they also shat on the rights of all Russian-born people there and made them to non-citizens with the exception of Lithuania. Yay for apartheid in the middle of Europe and Nazi parades!

Who has expressed joy for Nazi parades? Why are your posts always that unbalanced? Yes, people of Russian ancestry were subjected to discrimination, but that the situation has improved (otherwise they wouldn't have been able to join the EU). Let me also remind you that a number of ethnic Russians have chosen not to become citizens as that for example would require them to apply for a visa when visiting Russia.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatches/gl ... iga-latvia

This is a yearly thing, btw.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Thanas]

As to the latest escalations - it seems to me as if Russia jumped the shark. Almost every escalation can be traced to the Russian and their intervention.

Meanwhile the propaganda war grows stronger.

As to the soldiers deserting:

BBC Ukrainian editor Nina Kuryata in Kiev has received reports of Russian paratroopers threatening to storm Ukrainian army's marine battalion barracks in the village Perevalnoye, south of Simferopol. The battalion refused to hand in weapons and is preparing for assault.

This would indeed be a justification for war. Also, the justification for Russia acting is pretty bad:

While people are following the rhetoric that 'Crimea wants to be Russian', they seem to be skipping over the fact of the latest Gallup poll of Crimean residents where the results were 53% wanted to stay as an autonomy within Ukraine, and only 23% wanted to be separated and become an autonomy in Russia.

[Thanas]

My solution would be a Russian withdrawal followed up by inspectors coming in to make sure the elections are fair and democratic in all of the Ukraine. Then hold an equally fair referendum in Crimea. If they want to leave make sure the Crimean minorities are well compensated and receive their share.

[fgalkin]

Meanwhile, The flagship of the Ukrainian Navy defected to Russia. This is not surprising, as under the last polls taken in late January, 87% of the Ukrainian military supported Yanukovich.

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/ukrai ... hip-2014-3

Also, almost every escalation can be traced to Russia? Even in those in Odessa, Donetsk, Nikolayiv, etc?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Mange]

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatches/gl ... iga-latvia

This is a yearly thing, btw.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

That wasn't the question. I asked who [here] has expressed joy for Nazi parades? I think they're disgraceful.

[K. A. Pital]

If by deserting en masse you mean "being given the choice of disarming or joining the Russians" then yes.

Thanas, Ukrainian navy ships are ripe with mutiny. Which Russian soldiers are on Ukrainian ships? Oh that's right, none. They're vessels all right. If your vessel defect before your land forces, you know you have a problem.

They apparently were very smart to demand loyalty tests by its minorities.

Didn't know you were in favor of discrimination by race or nationality.

"I know you hate Ossetians" - really? Show me where I supported Georgia. GTFO with your stupid assumptions about motives.

You said that Russia is 'throwing money down the drain'. Drain? The people aren't a drain. People in a wartorn region are still people. Their poverty is a consequence of war. Money can help to restore the life to normal, help the people.

Do you realize how Putin's actions are the perfect pretext and justification for more of this crap? How could any country trust its Russian minority after what happened in the Crimea?

Do you realize that nationalists have conducted ethnic cleansings of Russians in Central Asia and have struck down the rights of Russian minorities 20 years prior to the events in Crimea? And yes, if the Russian minority rebels, it's their right. Nations don't get an automatic "Russian minority pacified and made a part of our nation" card. If you support Chechen separatism, I have no idea why you are so dead against Russian separatism. Chechen and Islamic separatism is a threat to China and Russia only. On the other hand, Russian separatism can be a threat to Europe. But that is not good grounds. I support all separatism equally. I would say that Chechen separatists (during the first war) should have been released, in the 90s. Their leaders were reasonably secular at the time and it is possible, despite the horrible ethnic cleansings, that Chechnya would look somewhat like Georgia or Azerbajan now. I also say that Catalonia should be let go, and Scotland should be independent if they so desire.

Now there's a question. Would you support Ireland's restoration of its territorial integrity? The territory of Northern Ireland has been ethnically cleansed and repopulated with loyalists by the British Empire.

Going by your Empire logic, Northern Ireland should suck it up and be returned to Ireland proper, regardless of the pro-British sentiment if there was any. You agree?

And for the uptenth time, if the fascists were the one in control they would be in control rather than being the smaller coalition partner.

There's no coalition. The government is ruled by people who are appointed by decree from a list which is composed by the leaders of the uprising.

Even if it were not so, if Russia wants to encourage seperatists in other nations then other nations can do the same in Russia.

That's right. I'm glad we are finally on the same page.

Almost every escalation can be traced to the Russian and their intervention.

Kharkov, Odessa too?

Yes, people of Russian ancestry were subjected to discrimination, but that the situation has improved (otherwise they wouldn't have been able to join the EU). Let me also remind you that a number of ethnic Russians have chosen not to become citizens as that for example would require them to apply for a visa when visiting Russia.

Note that this happened when Russia did nothing for these people. It didn't stage a "Northern Ireland" of their own. Now Russia does something. You are unhappy. Are you for separatism or against? If you are against, then you are also against the existence of Northern Ireland, right?

[fgalkin]

Psst, Thanas. Do take note where C14 is based, and who was the previous owner of the building.



Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Thanas]

Thanas, Ukrainian navy ships are ripe with mutiny. Which Russian soldiers are on Ukrainian ships? Oh that's right, none. They're vessels all right. If your vessel defect before your land forces, you know you have a problem.

Ships are not the land forces and apparently the Navy HQ in Sevastopol is resisting the Russians.

Didn't know you were in favor of discrimination by race or nationality.

Didn't know you were in favor of racist wars of aggression either.

You said that Russia is 'throwing money down the drain'. Drain? The people aren't a drain. People in a wartorn region are still people. Their poverty is a consequence of war. Money can help to restore the life to normal, help the people.

But it does not. It barely keeps the provinces afloat. There is no central development plan, no fight against corruption etc.

Do you realize that nationalists have conducted ethnic cleansings of Russians in Central Asia and have struck down the rights of Russian minorities 20 years prior to the events in Crimea? And yes, if the Russian minority rebels, it's their right. Nations don't get an automatic "Russian minority pacified and made a part of our nation" card. If you support Chechen separatism, I have no idea why you are so dead against Russian separatism. Chechen and Islamic separatism is a threat to China and Russia only. On the other hand, Russian separatism can be a threat to Europe. But that is not good grounds. I support all separatism equally. I would say that Chechen separatists (during the first war) should have been released, in the 90s. Their leaders were reasonably secular at the time and it is possible, despite the horrible ethnic cleansings, that Chechnya would look somewhat like Georgia or Azerbajan now. I also say that Catalonia should be let go, and Scotland should be independent if they so desire.

I do not support Chechen seperatists. I think both sides down there are assholes, the Russians a bit bigger assholes. Get your facts straight.

And what I am really dead set against is separatism as dictated by Russia. There were no fights in the Crimea before Russia intervened, nobody was genocided. There was no justification for this act of aggression.

Now there's a question. Would you support Ireland's restoration of its territorial integrity? The territory of Northern Ireland has been ethnically cleansed and repopulated with loyalists by the British Empire.

Going by your Empire logic, Northern Ireland should suck it up and be returned to Ireland proper, regardless of the pro-British sentiment if there was any. You agree?

No, as the EU has better mechanisms to resolve disputes than ethnic cleansings. Also, the last time that was Irish territory under Irish control was in the middle ages. You gotta be ludicrous to consider that a valid claim.

There's no coalition. The government is ruled by people who are appointed by decree from a list which is composed by the leaders of the uprising.

Bullshit. The parliament voted.

That's right. I'm glad we are finally on the same page.

We are not, as encouraging seperatism does not equal "invasion". The west is not marching into Russia and demanding it release its minorities.

Kharkov, Odessa too?

Like I said, almost. The reat threat is the Russian state invading right now.