59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

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Kamakazie Sith wrote:Take a look at the homicide rate compared to the US versus all of Europe and then break it down to that which is done with firearms and you'll have your answer. Also, if that's not enough remember this is the country where police get ambushed eating breakfast, people get shot just for ringing door bells, etc.
How often does this happen, percentage wise? More than 1% of cases of police ringing the door? Because if not, this is a completely miniscule chance and really not worth worrying about.

Oh, and we do have police being ambushed over here too.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

His Divine Shadow wrote:
aerius wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Ah. So the argument is that they should have simply left, rather than spontaneously attacking?
Technically it's a standoff once the police see that he has a gun, and at that point the correct course of action is to back off, surround his home from a distance for the safety of the community, and either give him a phone call or hail him with a megaphone. There's no imminent danger to anyone else in the home, to the community, or anyone else, so you can safely wait him out while figuring out what to do & de-escalate the situation.

Going through with the raid or even going to knock on the door when there's that many weapons waving around is escalating the situation and asking for a bad outcome.
This seems like it could be a more appropriate response when going after drug houses too, than say flashbanging and shit. Ofourse then they can flush their stash when you do it like that, but who cares.
Without the drugs the case is lost. So, a lot of people care.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Thanas wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:Take a look at the homicide rate compared to the US versus all of Europe and then break it down to that which is done with firearms and you'll have your answer. Also, if that's not enough remember this is the country where police get ambushed eating breakfast, people get shot just for ringing door bells, etc.
How often does this happen, percentage wise? More than 1% of cases of police ringing the door? Because if not, this is a completely miniscule chance and really not worth worrying about.

Oh, and we do have police being ambushed over here too.
No, sorry. I am referring to instances of citizens ringing the door bells of other citizens homes at late hours and getting shot for it. My point is that the american people are paranoid. It's in our news, politics, etc.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

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Kamakazie Sith wrote:
His Divine Shadow wrote:This seems like it could be a more appropriate response when going after drug houses too, than say flashbanging and shit. Ofourse then they can flush their stash when you do it like that, but who cares.
Without the drugs the case is lost. So, a lot of people care.
If all the reason they got for doing a raid is the possession of drugs they shouldn't be doing it in the first place. If there's a manufacturing op going on that's gonna be too much to flush or get rid of anyway, as well as other things they can charge them with. And better they get away than allowing no knock raids when it all comes down to it.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

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Kamakazie Sith wrote:No, sorry. I am referring to instances of citizens ringing the door bells of other citizens homes at late hours and getting shot for it. My point is that the american people are paranoid. It's in our news, politics, etc.
I am going to call BS on that being a normal occurrence without seeing any statistics on that. If that were the case, society would not be functioning at all. I think it is a completely unreasonable view on part of the police.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

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Here's a top ten of deadliest jobs in the US:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsm ... st-jobs-2/

I notice that policemen are not featured on that list and yes it includes deaths caused by violence.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

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So fatality numbers from police officers were 134 in total in 2011, a median of 18 per 100.000 workers. And that includes all deaths, including road accidents etc. In short, as a police officer, you have a 0,00018% chance of dieing on the job.

Of those dead,
However, one of the main culprits when it comes to police killings are traffic accidents, said Floyd.

Traffic-related accidents were up 37% in 2010 and represented 56% of all fatalities.
So you got a 0.00008% chance of dieing in a non-traffic accident situation.

If we even assume that half of those were shot (which is a quite generous assumption for those claiming police are in so much danger) then you still only have a 0.00004% of a chance of getting shot. So....how is "getting shot by crazed idiot" a reasonable fear again?

(EDIT: Comparing numbers to Germany - in 2011 one policemen was shot in Germany out of 243201 policemen total. So you got - for 2011 - a 0.000004% chance of getting killed. Which is ten times the chance compared to Germany, but still very miniscule.)
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by Vendetta »

Kamakazie Sith wrote: Without the drugs the case is lost. So, a lot of people care.
If the stash is so small that it can be reasonably disposed of in the short period of time between shouting "police" and ramming the door does is it really that crucial a bust?
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

His Divine Shadow wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:
His Divine Shadow wrote:This seems like it could be a more appropriate response when going after drug houses too, than say flashbanging and shit. Ofourse then they can flush their stash when you do it like that, but who cares.
Without the drugs the case is lost. So, a lot of people care.
If all the reason they got for doing a raid is the possession of drugs they shouldn't be doing it in the first place. If there's a manufacturing op going on that's gonna be too much to flush or get rid of anyway, as well as other things they can charge them with. And better they get away than allowing no knock raids when it all comes down to it.
You and I are in agreement there. Unfortunately, the civilian leadership is not.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Thanas wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:No, sorry. I am referring to instances of citizens ringing the door bells of other citizens homes at late hours and getting shot for it. My point is that the american people are paranoid. It's in our news, politics, etc.
I am going to call BS on that being a normal occurrence without seeing any statistics on that. If that were the case, society would not be functioning at all. I think it is a completely unreasonable view on part of the police.
I never said that was a reason on part of police. I was responding to what sounded like you comparing US crime to European crime like they are anything remotely alike. My point was that the US has a higher homicide rate than Europe. If that wasn't enough for you to retract your statement then as a second consider that the US has more guns and is also a violent and paranoid culture.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Thanas wrote:So fatality numbers from police officers were 134 in total in 2011, a median of 18 per 100.000 workers. And that includes all deaths, including road accidents etc. In short, as a police officer, you have a 0,00018% chance of dieing on the job.

Of those dead,
However, one of the main culprits when it comes to police killings are traffic accidents, said Floyd.

Traffic-related accidents were up 37% in 2010 and represented 56% of all fatalities.
So you got a 0.00008% chance of dieing in a non-traffic accident situation.

If we even assume that half of those were shot (which is a quite generous assumption for those claiming police are in so much danger) then you still only have a 0.00004% of a chance of getting shot. So....how is "getting shot by crazed idiot" a reasonable fear again?

(EDIT: Comparing numbers to Germany - in 2011 one policemen was shot in Germany out of 243201 policemen total. So you got - for 2011 - a 0.000004% chance of getting killed. Which is ten times the chance compared to Germany, but still very miniscule.)
Metahive wrote:
Here's a top ten of deadliest jobs in the US:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsm ... st-jobs-2/

I notice that policemen are not featured on that list and yes it includes deaths caused by violence.
This argument is tired and extremely narrow in scope. If someone tries to kill a police officer but fails then that number isn't added to that list for obvious reasons. In order to have more of a complete picture we must turn to the FBI statistical database. Source

In 2012, 52,901 police officers were assaulted with 14,678 of them sustaining injuries. The 52,901 is broken down into the following;
4.3% were attacked with a firearm (2274)
1.7% were attacked with a knife or cutting instrument (899)
13.9% were attacked with some other dangerous weapon, for example baseball bat (7353)

In other words 10,526 officers were attacked with weapons that could seriously injure or kill in 2012. 48 did not survive.

If that doesn't impress upon you the dangers of using statistics in such a lazy way then consider the following. There are roughly 80,000 SWAT raids per year in the United States - probably more now. Even if we take the highest estimate for police shootings per year (1000) and assume that these were all innocent people then only .0125% of SWAT raids result in the death of an innocent. Though we both know I'm being insanely generous by giving you all of those 1000 shootings as unjustified SWAT shootings. The actual number is likely around the same figures that you basically said is an unreasonable fear.

Police shooting source

So, can we conclude that incomplete statistics should never be used or should we go ahead and conclude that being unjustly shot by police during a botched SWAT raid is an unreasonable fear?
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Vendetta wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote: Without the drugs the case is lost. So, a lot of people care.
If the stash is so small that it can be reasonably disposed of in the short period of time between shouting "police" and ramming the door does is it really that crucial a bust?
Hell no. If it were up to me the drug war would stop immediately and I'd make them all legal. However, it isn't up to me. It's up to our elected representatives and the voters. See proposition 19 from California 2010 to see how voters felt about legalization. It's probably different now (I hope) but I think it illustrates my point nicely.

My point, by the way, is the civilian government wants drug homes taken down because that's what they feel the people want.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

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Just to nail the hammer home...
Every year, the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics releases its Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries, outlining the most dangerous jobs in America. Like clockwork, after the release of the census, a handful of reporters will write a story highlighting the fact that police officers are not at the top of the list.

The underlying implication is that, because criminal justice careers aren't first on the list, perhaps law enforcement officers are not entitled to the enhanced pensions or health benefits they often receive. That is a debate for another time and another place.

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A look at the data, though, is certainly worth a discussion. The truth of the matter is, no matter where the occupation ranks on the census, law enforcement careers remain dangerous. In fact, following a historic low of line-of-duty deaths in 2009, on-the-job fatalities for law enforcement officers are again on the upswing.

The Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries is a great source of information, but like all statistics, it's the interpretation of the data that matters. The census produces a "fatality rate," detailing the number of individuals fatally injured per 100,000 workers. It also provides a raw number of fatal on-the-job injuries. Making the top 10 most dangerous jobs for 2010, the most recent year for which data is available, are:



Fishers and related fishing workers, at a rate of 116 deaths per 100,000
Logging workers, at a rate of 91 deaths per 100,000
Aircraft pilots and flight engineers, at a rate of 71 deaths per 100,000
Farmers and ranchers, at a rate of 41 deaths per 100,000
Mining machine operators, at a rate of 38 deaths per 100,000
Roofers, at a rate of 32 deaths per 100,000
Refuse and recyclable material collectors, at a rate of 29 deaths per 100,000
Drivers / sales workers and truck drivers, at a rate of 21 deaths per 100,000
Industrial machinery repair and installation, at a rate of 20 per 100,000
Police and sheriff's patrol officers, at a rate of 19 per 100,000

A cursory glance at the rate of fatal injuries looks pretty staggering at first blush, especially for the top-rated professions of fishers, loggers and flight crews. The problem with basing a presupposition entirely on such a rate is that the data is per capita, meaning that in smaller industries the numbers can become easily skewed.

A Numbers Game?

In the case of fishers and related fishing workers, for example, the fatality rate for 2010 was 116 deaths per 100,000 workers. The actual number of deaths in the industry, though, was 29. The same can be said of flight crews, who saw a fatality rate of 70, while the total number of fatalities for the industry was 78. Compare that to the 133 deaths of law enforcement officers in 2010 or the 177 in 2011.

In these occupations, the smaller number of workers greatly affects the fatality rate; one or two accidents can easily send the rate skyrocketing, while the actual raw numbers may be significantly lower. If we were to rank dangerous jobs based on raw numbers as a opposed to rates, the list would look like this:

Drivers / sales workers and truck drivers - 683
Farmers and ranchers - 300
Police and sheriff's patrol officers - 133
Industrial machinery repair and installation - 96
Aircraft pilots and flight engineers - 70
Roofers - 57
Logging workers - 59
Fishers and related fishing workers - 29
Refuse and recyclable material collectors - 26
Mining machine operators - 23


The Bigger Picture in Ranking Dangerous Jobs

When ordered by raw numbers, the list looks very different. Numbers, however, still don't tell the whole story. The simple fact is that there is one glaring difference between law enforcement officers and every other occupation on the list. Of all the jobs listed, only police officer deaths include a significant number of murders. That is to say that no one is trying to kill fishers or loggers or refuse collectors.

While traffic related deaths make up a large portion of police fatalities, they do not make up the majority. Firearms and other felonious causes make up the bulk of line-of-duty deaths. The bottom line, law enforcement professions are the only career on the list in which being murdered is actually an occupational hazard.

This point is not at all to diminish the dangers that are inherent in these other professions, but a distinction must be made. Despite the hundreds and, in some cases thousands, of hours police officers spend in academy training, law enforcement careers remain among the most dangerous professions no matter how you rank them.

Criminal Justice Careers are Still Worth the Risk

Despite the danger, though, careers in criminal justice are both fun and rewarding. In fact, an argument can be made that it is precisely this element of danger that entices many to the profession to begin with.

You don't have to be a thrill seeker to enjoy or succeed in law enforcement, though. Despite the risk, it takes all kinds of people and personality types to make a police department work and to keep a community safe. With proper and diligent training and a survival state of mind, police officers can greatly reduce their risk of injury or death and live to enjoy a long and rewarding career.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

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Kamakazie Sith wrote:In 2012, 52,901 police officers were assaulted with 14,678 of them sustaining injuries. The 52,901 is broken down into the following;
4.3% were attacked with a firearm (2274)
1.7% were attacked with a knife or cutting instrument (899)
13.9% were attacked with some other dangerous weapon, for example baseball bat (7353)
So? Over 60.000 attacks were made on police officers in Germany last year (and we have a much lower population). Heck, just in one of our states over 1800 officers required medical attention after attacks. Those numbers of yours do not impress me in the slightest.

If anything we should have our police running around with riot gear at all time. I find it simply baffling that the USA not only posits a much lower number of attacks on officers (compared to population size) but has much harsher responses too.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

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Thanas wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:In 2012, 52,901 police officers were assaulted with 14,678 of them sustaining injuries. The 52,901 is broken down into the following;
4.3% were attacked with a firearm (2274)
1.7% were attacked with a knife or cutting instrument (899)
13.9% were attacked with some other dangerous weapon, for example baseball bat (7353)
So? Over 60.000 attacks were made on police officers in Germany last year (and we have a much lower population). Heck, just in one of our states over 1800 officers required medical attention after attacks. Those numbers of yours do not impress me in the slightest.

If anything we should have our police running around with riot gear at all time. I find it simply baffling that the USA not only posits a much lower number of attacks on officers (compared to population size) but has much harsher responses too.
Your response doesnt impress me. It's so fucking vague that I reject it utterly. No breakdown of type of assaults. No sources. Let me put it to you another way. If those 52901 assaults were just simple assaults (being punched) I wouldn't have posted in this thread. Of course you completely ignored my main point that statistics arent appriopriate for complex matters.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

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By the way. You seem to be under the impression that I either believe or am trying to prove that the United States is a war zone for police. I don't not think this nor am I trying to support this notion. I'm responding to your post where you imply that Europe is just as violent or more so than the United States. I think that's bullshit. I think that because your post was completely devoid of any details. Usually you post detailed arguments. You haven't done this and that makes me think you're trying to sell some bullshit.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by LaCroix »

Thanas certainly can dig up better data than I can - but his numbers are not imaginary.
Bavarian Ministry Press release
2012, Bavaria alone had 13.989 attacks on officers (in 6732 occurrences - German officers are almost always in pairs), resulting in ~2.000 injuries.

You guys in the USA think that your environment is more hostile, but Europe is almost the same. In Germany, ~80 million civilians hold ~25 million guns, too - 30.31 firearms per 100 people. That's about on par with Texas or Arizona rates and pretty much the median of American civilian ownership.
(I know, this does not include illegal guns, but the German numbers don't, either)
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

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Most legal gun owners are statistically not the kind of people police tend to engage professionally, so in that sense the amount of guns legally held are usually irrelevant.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by LaCroix »

His Divine Shadow wrote:Most legal gun owners are statistically not the kind of people police tend to engage professionally, so in that sense the amount of guns legally held are usually irrelevant.
There is a certain irony in saying this in a thread about an innocent man, legally owning a gun, who got shot by a SWAT team raiding his house in an illegal manner - for holding that gun.
A minute's thought suggests that the very idea of this is stupid. A more detailed examination raises the possibility that it might be an answer to the question "how could the Germans win the war after the US gets involved?" - Captain Seafort, in a thread proposing a 1942 'D-Day' in Quiberon Bay

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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

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Kamakazie Sith wrote:Usually you post detailed arguments. You haven't done this and that makes me think you're trying to sell some bullshit.
I've given that up because you somehow forget the results of those arguments as soon as a few months passed, for example when it comes to gun usage by police. However, I will do so once again in the hope that this time it will be different and you will indeed remember it.

Source - in German

The trouble is that German police does not distinguish between attacks with different kinds of weapons, rather with regards to the damage they would most likely (or did) cause.

So for example an attack with a gun can either be an attempt at killing the police or just as an attempt to cause severe harm. The same applies to a broadsword. In many cases, the difference is quite likely wether the police are wearing vests or not. A further questions is if a threat is counted as an assault. For example, if I pull a gun on a police officer and threaten to kill him, that would be counted as an assault on officers in the US system, whereas Germany does not count it as an assault but as a threat.

With that being said:
3755 out of 60.294 police victims were attacked with weapons or dangerous objects (6,23%)
(an additional 4095 police were threatened = 6,79%)
87 were attacked with clear deadly force (=0,14%)
(an additional 75 were threatened with weapons during robberies = 0,12%)

So counting that up: 13.28% of police officer victims would have qualified as being assaulted under the US term. Now the combined US victim rate was 19.9, but still that is not as huge as difference to justify the US police actions in my opinion. We are talking about barely more than 6% in difference here.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by His Divine Shadow »

LaCroix wrote:
His Divine Shadow wrote:Most legal gun owners are statistically not the kind of people police tend to engage professionally, so in that sense the amount of guns legally held are usually irrelevant.
There is a certain irony in saying this in a thread about an innocent man, legally owning a gun, who got shot by a SWAT team raiding his house in an illegal manner - for holding that gun.
Well, statistically speaking.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Thanas wrote:
I've given that up because you somehow forget the results of those arguments as soon as a few months passed, for example when it comes to gun usage by police. However, I will do so once again in the hope that this time it will be different and you will indeed remember it.
Or you could simply provide a link to that discussion.
The trouble is that German police does not distinguish between attacks with different kinds of weapons, rather with regards to the damage they would most likely (or did) cause.

So for example an attack with a gun can either be an attempt at killing the police or just as an attempt to cause severe harm. The same applies to a broadsword. In many cases, the difference is quite likely wether the police are wearing vests or not. A further questions is if a threat is counted as an assault. For example, if I pull a gun on a police officer and threaten to kill him, that would be counted as an assault on officers in the US system, whereas Germany does not count it as an assault but as a threat.
That's correct, but this needs to be broken down further. In order for a threat to qualify as an assault you need to make a show of force. Without that show of force then it is a threat under the US system.

Example - If you tell a police officer that you intend to shoot him without an immediate show of force that is just a threat. In Utah such a threat would just be a class B misdemeanor.
With that being said:
3755 out of 60.294 police victims were attacked with weapons or dangerous objects (6,23%)
(an additional 4095 police were threatened = 6,79%)
87 were attacked with clear deadly force (=0,14%)
(an additional 75 were threatened with weapons during robberies = 0,12%)
A threat under German code is defined as a threat of force. So, for all we know a significant portion of those are threats involving simple threats such as threatening physical violence upon the officer. Can you expand on this?

I noticed that 806 of those 4095 threats involved coercion. Can you expand on this?
Section 113
Resisting enforcement officers

(1) Whosoever, by force or threat of force, offers resistance to or attacks a public official or soldier of the Armed Forces charged with the enforcement of laws, ordinances, judgments, judicial decisions or orders acting in the execution of such official duty shall be liable to imprisonment not exceeding two years or a fine.

(2) In especially serious cases the penalty shall be imprisonment from six months to five years. An especially serious case typically occurs if

1. the principal or another accomplice carries a weapon for the purpose of using it during the commission of the offence; or

2. the offender through violence places the person assaulted in danger of death or serious injury.

(3) The offence shall not be punishable under this provision if the official act is unlawful. This shall also apply if the offender mistakenly assumes that the official act is lawful.

(4) If the offender during the commission of the offence mistakenly assumes that the official act is unlawful and if he could have avoided the mistake the court may mitigate the sentence in its discretion (section 49(2)) or order a discharge under this provision if the offender’s guilt is of a minor nature. If the offender could not have avoided the mistake and under the circumstances known to him he could not have been expected to use legal remedies to defend himself against the presumed unlawful official act, the offence shall not be punishable under this provision; if the use of remedies could have been expected the court may mitigate the sentence in its discretion (section 49(2)) or order a discharge under this provision.
Source

On a side note I do like how the German system includes a section for unlawful official acts within the section for resisting enforcement officers. The US system can be confusing with related subjects being found in completely different sections.
So counting that up: 13.28% of police officer victims would have qualified as being assaulted under the US term. Now the combined US victim rate was 19.9, but still that is not as huge as difference to justify the US police actions in my opinion. We are talking about barely more than 6% in difference here.
For the purpose of this discussion I will give you the 4095 as threats involving the possession of a dangerous weapon. Out of the 13.28 what percent of those involve the use of threatened use or firearms.
Source
I think this is one of the trade offs a society without a history of widespread gun crime can make - increase the risk of the individual officer a bit more in exchange for a general downsize of the death rate of perps.
Because you don't have widespread gun crime you are able to accept more risk and have adjusted your tactics with that in mind. The result of this trade off is you have more police officers assaulted in Germany, even if I take away all 4095, than in the US despite having fewer cops (US roughly 900,000 / Germany roughly 250,000) and fewer people (US nearly 313 mil / Germany roughly 80 mil) but more cops per 100,000 people than the US.

Of those that were assaulted 3,755 of those were seriously injured, and 32 were murdered. For comparison the US had 64 police officers murdered in 2012.

In exchange - I am making an assumption here - the 2012 figures are similar to 2011 in which 85 shots were fired, 15 people were injured by police gun fire, and six were killed.

So, it appears to me that the figures on violence against your police officers are not a result of just as violent criminal element but as a result in your trade off.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by Thanas »

First, my apologies, I completely forgot this thread existed.
That's correct, but this needs to be broken down further. In order for a threat to qualify as an assault you need to make a show of force. Without that show of force then it is a threat under the US system.

Example - If you tell a police officer that you intend to shoot him without an immediate show of force that is just a threat. In Utah such a threat would just be a class B misdemeanor.
In Germany both would be threats. Though there is the added corrective of the threat being a credible one to be counted as such. For example, if I am drunk as a sailor and threatening to snipe the police officer while being unable to walk a straight line, that is obviously not a credible threat.
A threat under German code is defined as a threat of force. So, for all we know a significant portion of those are threats involving simple threats such as threatening physical violence upon the officer. Can you expand on this?
Well, the threat has to be believable. I am not sure how much I could expand on this without falling into conjecture, like you did with the assumption that these are verbal threats.
I noticed that 806 of those 4095 threats involved coercion. Can you expand on this?
Coercion is a catch all term in German law for a wide variety of force. Legal police coercion for example include fines, the use of phsyical force, arrests and even the use of police weapons like batons or even machine guns. So it is a catch all term.

In this context, coercion is used as a synonym for physical force that failed to injure the officer. Like, if in this case physical force. For example, if I push a police officer or sit on him without causing damage, I still used physical force and thus am guilty of illegal coercion.

Or it might be attacks on officers carrying out coercion. What table specifically are you talking about?
On a side note I do like how the German system includes a section for unlawful official acts within the section for resisting enforcement officers. The US system can be confusing with related subjects being found in completely different sections.
Well, our system forces police officers to carry the enforcement risk. For example, I am allowed to resist a clearly unlawful official act and if the order the police tries to enforce is illegal, they cannot punish me for resisting.
Because you don't have widespread gun crime you are able to accept more risk and have adjusted your tactics with that in mind. The result of this trade off is you have more police officers assaulted in Germany, even if I take away all 4095, than in the US despite having fewer cops (US roughly 900,000 / Germany roughly 250,000) and fewer people (US nearly 313 mil / Germany roughly 80 mil) but more cops per 100,000 people than the US.

Of those that were assaulted 3,755 of those were seriously injured, and 32 were murdered. For comparison the US had 64 police officers murdered in 2012.
Where do you get the figure of the 32 murdered cops?
In exchange - I am making an assumption here - the 2012 figures are similar to 2011 in which 85 shots were fired, 15 people were injured by police gun fire, and six were killed.

So, it appears to me that the figures on violence against your police officers are not a result of just as violent criminal element but as a result in your trade off.
I don't know man, that makes one hell of an assumption, that being US society being predisposed to more violence per se than other societies and that US criminals are per se more violent than German criminals. Why should that be the case, is there a special gene in the US gene pool?
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