Slavery & the South (split from Eric Garner thread)

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Zinegata
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Re: Slavery & the South (split from Eric Garner thread)

Post by Zinegata »

Simon_Jester wrote:Of course, the Union was in much the same position for quite a while, as illustrated by draft riots and as you say by the fact that in early 1862 it was still shocking for an army of sixty-six thousand men to lose two thousand dead, eight thousand wounded, and three thousand captured or missing.
The draft riots are a classic case of an anecdote being conflated to serve as representative of the entire nation, when in reality the South's desertion rates were consistently higher throughout the war and they had to constantly police their own core territories for deserters. The draft riots moreover where caused primarily by new immigrants who were truly not invested in the conflict either way yet.

The south didn't just have only three armies, they had three armies that were constantly shedding men at a rate faster than the Union's. That again is not a nation that is really gung-ho for war except for a small minority.
Although that would then tend to support the premise that the Union would have been more likely to fold if invaded- except that as Stas notes, being invaded usually tends to galvanize a nation's will to resist, not weaken it.
There's a difference between a disdain for heavy casualties - and the Union remained adverse to casualties right to the very end hance Grant getting criticized for the Wilderness Campaign and Licoln's reelection coming into doubt - and an invasion of core territories. Again, the real casus belli of the war is the constant and malicious attempts by the Southern states (more specifically its ruling class of slave owners) to subvert the democratic processes of the United States, by allowing the minority of slave-holders to hold sway over the rest of the country - as demonstrated by how they got extra representation power even though the slaves in their districts didn't get to vote.

Apologists try to obscure this reality by pointing to how the North wasn't really into equality of black and whites, hence putting the blame on the war on the minority of abolitionists. However, that is nothing but an insidous lie that serves to make people forget that both the North and large portions of the South were in fact decisively anti-slavery regardless of their feelings on the race issue - because slavery is not only a moral issue, but an economic and political one.

Why should a Kansas farmer have his farm bought away by a plantation mogul who can bully his way into buying the land by the use of his slave labor? Why should a Northern factory worker accept a system wherein he may end up unemployed if the factory manager decides to replace his paid laborers with slave laborers? Why should a Virginian accept a law exempting wealthy slave owners from military service - a law that was passed by lawmakers who were exclusively wealthy slave owners? And why should Maine accept electoral college votes from South Carolina when a good chunk of those votes is based on "representation" for slaves who cannot vote and who are in fact actively exploited by the system?

That's why the Union Army always stiffened up when they were fighting on home turf- and every single Southern invasion turned out to not only be a miserable failure but also a source to further strengthen the Union's resolve. The Union was in fact the aggrieved party from start to finish, and much of the South in fact did not want the war which is why so many areas simply surrendered without a fight including its largest city.

This is also why all of the notions that Lee could have won by invading the North was nonsensical; and has parallels with Napoleon's mistaken idea that taking Moscow will cause Russia to surrender. There was never even a guarantee that the North would surrender once Washington DC fell - its economic heartlands of New York, Boston, and Chicago would remain untouched, the strangling blockade will remain in place, the South will most likely still not be recognized by other nations so long as the North kept fighting; and the worst case scenario perhaps is Lincoln losing the election albeit that still not a guarantee that his replacement will accept peace on anything but unconditonla terms.

In short, the South had to invade the north not because it had any realistic prospect of winning by invasion, but because it's the only fairy tale scenario that Lee could spin to help the delusional Southern seccessionists and their modern-day apologists sleep at night by thinking they had a chance. In reality it was hopeless, as hopeless as Hitler's V2 rockets and as hopeless as Napoleon's taking Moscow.

By contrast, when the North invaded core southern areas resistance did not stiffen - instead it collapsed almost outright. How else could Sherman have marched hundreds of kilometers without a supply line had the South really been so dead-set to fight? Why were no partisans harassing him, no roadblocks fighting for every crossroad? Why did the the Confederate armies that could have fought him simply avoided battle? Heck, how else could he have taken several cities almost without a shot being fired? The contrasts between the result of Southern invasions and northern invasions shows who really had the resolve to win this conflict, and who was the truly aggrieved side.
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Re: Slavery & the South (split from Eric Garner thread)

Post by Isolder74 »

Zinegata wrote:On the subject of Union Generals...

Burnside to be fair never wanted command of the Army of the Potomac. He knew he wasn't cut for army command. He was at his best as a Corps commander, particularly his oft-forgotten battles in Tennessee wherein he actually completely outfoxed Longstreet and ensured Knoxville remained in Union hands.
Ironically, Burnside as a field commander is one of the many reasons that Antietam ends up being a Union victory rather then an indecisive draw. He took two very vital bridges and held them preventing the Confederates from flanking Hooker even worse then they already were. Of course he two fond himself unsupported because the troops in the center basically never moved during the whole battle.
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Re: Slavery & the South (split from Eric Garner thread)

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Isolder74 wrote: Ironically, Burnside as a field commander is one of the many reasons that Antietam ends up being a Union victory rather then an indecisive draw. He took two very vital bridges and held them preventing the Confederates from flanking Hooker even worse then they already were. Of course he two fond himself unsupported because the troops in the center basically never moved during the whole battle.
Maybe I'm remembering the details of Antietam incorrectly (I visited the battle site several years ago and read a bunch about it, but it's been a while), so feel free to correct me. IIRC, one of the reasons Burnside was able to protect the two bridges was because the Confederates bungled the attack, pulling off a mini-Chancellorsville of sorts by cramming across the (very narrow) bridge, which ended in a rather narrow path passing beneath a steep bluff. The Union soldiers were on top of that bluff, with clear lines of site, and could basically just pick the mass Confederates off at will.

Certainly, Burnside deserves some credit for positioning his soldiers correctly in the battle, but a lot of the situation was uniquely determined by the local geography, and could have turned out differently if the Confederates hadn't launched an idiotic frontal assault.
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Re: Slavery & the South (split from Eric Garner thread)

Post by Isolder74 »

Ziggy Stardust wrote:
Isolder74 wrote: Ironically, Burnside as a field commander is one of the many reasons that Antietam ends up being a Union victory rather then an indecisive draw. He took two very vital bridges and held them preventing the Confederates from flanking Hooker even worse then they already were. Of course he two fond himself unsupported because the troops in the center basically never moved during the whole battle.
Maybe I'm remembering the details of Antietam incorrectly (I visited the battle site several years ago and read a bunch about it, but it's been a while), so feel free to correct me. IIRC, one of the reasons Burnside was able to protect the two bridges was because the Confederates bungled the attack, pulling off a mini-Chancellorsville of sorts by cramming across the (very narrow) bridge, which ended in a rather narrow path passing beneath a steep bluff. The Union soldiers were on top of that bluff, with clear lines of site, and could basically just pick the mass Confederates off at will.

Certainly, Burnside deserves some credit for positioning his soldiers correctly in the battle, but a lot of the situation was uniquely determined by the local geography, and could have turned out differently if the Confederates hadn't launched an idiotic frontal assault.
You are remembering it correctly. The part of the battle with the two bridges is one of the many places where Lee makes glaring mistakes. Of course because McClellan refused to commit forces when any other general would have those errors never became a huge failure for the Confederate army. McClellan was very slow to respond to any battlefield situation meaning that Lee could make huge mistakes and they wouldn't end up being evident. Antietam in general is one of the many examples of how Lee was very overrated.
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Re: Slavery & the South (split from Eric Garner thread)

Post by Tribble »

My Civil War history is a little rusty here, which part of the battle involved the two bridges? I take it they did not involve Burnside's Bridge, which if I remember correctly was the one that the Union took several hours to capture (despite there being several fords nearby). Burnside was very heavily criticised for that one, even if holding it prevented the Confederates from outflanking the Union left.
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Re: Slavery & the South (split from Eric Garner thread)

Post by Isolder74 »

We'll the second bridge is the one in front of the Union Center which what in front of McClellan. For Burnside, He does makes use of the ford on the left of the bridge but no matter what in order for his artillery to advance the bridge does need to be taken. Of course never having his center assault the position when Lee counterattacks means that Burnside isn't able to block Lee's line or retreat. To make things worse, Burnside didn't get his orders until late in the day making his taking of the bridge less valuable at that point. If the bridge was taken earlier, Lee would have been in a very bad position when trying to leave the battlefield.

This page has a good breakdown of the battle.
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