Guns now more lethal in America than cars

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TheFeniX
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Re: Guns now more lethal in America than cars

Post by TheFeniX »

General Zod wrote:This is probably one of the stupider rebuttals made by gun owners. Using it for anything besides it's main purpose doesn't magically change it's main purpose.
You, of course, being the expert on a handgun's "main purpose," which is only to kill people... of which 99% of them sold probably won't even be pointed at a person, much less fired at them.

Let's just get real stupid and go with this since Jake decided to start rubbing his rump against the ottoman and grunt continuously while staring at me (it's always creepy) and I don't think the conversation is going to go anywhere because I'm somehow offended at the idea of someone stating an absolute and me finding just two examples off the top of my head that shows it being wrong. If you honestly believe something like the Ruger Competition Match pistol was designed to kill people, we have nothing to discuss. But let's roll with it:

Jake's a Cocker Spaniel with more than a few miles on him. His "main purpose" should be flushing small birds out of hiding so I can blast them with my shotgun. Really though he spends more time snoring in my lap and stinking up the place with his terrible gas (which used to be my domain). As Cocker's were an extremely popular breed of dog in the U.S. for years, millions of Cocker owners did the same thing. It wouldn't surprise me if only 10% or less of Cockers were being used for their original intention.

So forgive me if I don't freak out about "purpose," even if I believed that was true, when it's obvious even that can be co-opted for something else.
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Re: Guns now more lethal in America than cars

Post by Flagg »

TheFeniX wrote:I recall a thread about kids giving up or waiting to drive a few years back. That combined with stricter safety regulations for both driving and vehicle production makes the trend unsurprising.
Flagg wrote:Guns: Useful in only a small number of circumstances dealing with wildlife, incredibly dangerous and handguns are designed solely to kill people.
I know, right? There's no other reason to even manufacture them. Besides, it's not like there would ever be a reason you may have to use one on a person.
Wow, it's almost like the exception that proves the rule isn't it. CAN'T WE JUST THINK OF THE POOR COMPETITION HANDGUN MARKSMEN?!
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Re: Guns now more lethal in America than cars

Post by Flagg »

TheFeniX wrote:
General Zod wrote:This is probably one of the stupider rebuttals made by gun owners. Using it for anything besides it's main purpose doesn't magically change it's main purpose.
You, of course, being the expert on a handgun's "main purpose," which is only to kill people... of which 99% of them sold probably won't even be pointed at a person, much less fired at them.

Let's just get real stupid and go with this since Jake decided to start rubbing his rump against the ottoman and grunt continuously while staring at me (it's always creepy) and I don't think the conversation is going to go anywhere because I'm somehow offended at the idea of someone stating an absolute and me finding just two examples off the top of my head that shows it being wrong. If you honestly believe something like the Ruger Competition Match pistol was designed to kill people, we have nothing to discuss. But let's roll with it:

Jake's a Cocker Spaniel with more than a few miles on him. His "main purpose" should be flushing small birds out of hiding so I can blast them with my shotgun. Really though he spends more time snoring in my lap and stinking up the place with his terrible gas (which used to be my domain). As Cocker's were an extremely popular breed of dog in the U.S. for years, millions of Cocker owners did the same thing. It wouldn't surprise me if only 10% or less of Cockers were being used for their original intention.

So forgive me if I don't freak out about "purpose," even if I believed that was true, when it's obvious even that can be co-opted for something else.
You may be the single stupidest person on the Internet right now, son. I'm very disappointed in you. You know why when I bought my 9mm I had to insist on not purchasing a .45 despite its better "stopping power". Why would I need better stopping power for target shooting?
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Re: Guns now more lethal in America than cars

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Flagg wrote:Wow, it's almost like the exception that proves the rule isn't it. CAN'T WE JUST THINK OF THE POOR COMPETITION HANDGUN MARKSMEN?!
I would have gone with the "wuss-man need gun to kill snake? Use rock, rock good, rock strong." Which of course has nothing to do with my point. If anything, a private citizen in this day and age taking a gun to shoot someone is the exception and the gun market has evolved to reflect that.
Flagg wrote:You may be the single stupidest person on the Internet right now, son. I'm very disappointed in you. You know why when I bought my 9mm I had to insist on not purchasing a .45 despite its better "stopping power". Why would I need better stopping power for target shooting?
So, a guy was trying to sell you on a more expensive handgun and ammo and this is determining what you're shooting at? I assume since you bought the 9mm, this wasn't the case. Are you somehow special in this regard? Are other people lacking in your stalwart devotion to their purchasing decisions? No, you're just like 99% of the other people who buy handguns: you didn't buy it to shoot someone even though it's perfectly capable of doing so.
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Re: Guns now more lethal in America than cars

Post by Flagg »

TheFeniX wrote:
Flagg wrote:Wow, it's almost like the exception that proves the rule isn't it. CAN'T WE JUST THINK OF THE POOR COMPETITION HANDGUN MARKSMEN?!
I would have gone with the "wuss-man need gun to kill snake? Use rock, rock good, rock strong." Which of course has nothing to do with my point. If anything, a private citizen in this day and age taking a gun to shoot someone is the exception and the gun market has evolved to reflect that.
Flagg wrote:You may be the single stupidest person on the Internet right now, son. I'm very disappointed in you. You know why when I bought my 9mm I had to insist on not purchasing a .45 despite its better "stopping power". Why would I need better stopping power for target shooting?
So, a guy was trying to sell you on a more expensive handgun and ammo and this is determining what you're shooting at? I assume since you bought the 9mm, this wasn't the case. Are you somehow special in this regard? Are other people lacking in your stalwart devotion to their purchasing decisions? No, you're just like 99% of the other people who buy handguns: you didn't buy it to shoot someone even though it's perfectly capable of doing so.
God fucking damn, you are stupid. I mean you really think this red herring shit is going to work? Seriously, are you going to use starter pistols as another example of a handguns usefulness in something other than killing people? I had my 9mm to fucking kill someone if they attacked me in my home. Yes, I bought my 9mm with the express purpose of killing someone. Did I target shoot for fun, too? Sure, also to improve my skills with handguns (still not great, you give me a rifle, though...) so that if I had to, I could use my handgun to kill someone, it's primary purpose. Idiot.
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Re: Guns now more lethal in America than cars

Post by Patroklos »

You are a psychopath then. I have my 9mm to prevent me and mine from getting killed, I could care less what the end state of the attack is.
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Re: Guns now more lethal in America than cars

Post by Covenant »

Patroklos wrote:You are a psychopath then. I have my 9mm to prevent me and mine from getting killed, I could care less what the end state of the attack is.
Unless you are using the pistol to achieve a kill then the nebulous goal of "defense" shows a misapplication of intent. You can just as well protect you and yours (whatever that means) from kill by moving away, or carrying mace, or a tazer, or hiring personal security, or so on.

Firearms are more convenient than relocating, more demonstrably effective than mace or a tazer, and cheaper than a full time security detail. They achieve this by being constructed for the express purpose of firing balls of metal into the target, not by warning off criminals or deflecting enemy attack. They are only useful on attack, or as a threat of attack. If you don't care what the end state of the attack is then I would suggest the mace or pepper spray. Possibly upgrade it to bear mace if you enjoy being cruel and literally melting the face off an assailant. Flamethrowers and acid defensive items are similarly effective at protecting "me and mine" from assailants. You could also invest in running shoes, as running is still the most effective survival technique, even in an armed confrontation.

It's nice to say you have a gun "for defense" but a handgun is not really a defensive item, even when you discount the threats of stray gunfire. Saying the end state is not relevant just makes you sound callous at best, stupid at worst. Of course the end state is important--are you carrying rubber bullets? Beanbags? Blanks? Or are you loading it with actual ammunition? Would you consider loading it with blanks instead? If not, then the end state (or potential end state) does indeed matter.

I don't mean this as a criticism, but so much of the gun debate revolves around two broad classes of firearms (handguns and automatic weapons) which provide almost no benign function. People who honestly want to defend their home from invasion can do so quite easily, and with less risk to their fellow neighbors, with a shotgun. Most deaths involving guns have nothing to do with "personal defense of my home and family" so the whole question is absurd, but for those people who do have an honest interest in self defense, or hunting, or casual target shooting, the shotgun is the best fit, bar none. Cheap, dependable, useful for a variety of things, great for defending oneself in any environment and very unlikely to simply "be found" and used to kill a fellow kid, especially if you have to rack the thing to even load ammunition into the chamber.

Even the woman who had blasted her rapist with a firearm wasn't using a handgun, she used a shotgun. Shotguns are much better defensive weapons, for a multitude of reasons, and they also have more functional purposes and hunting value than a handgun does. If your neighborhood is so dangerous that you feel the need to carry a hot-loaded firearm on your person even while in a car or while going about your normal business then I would honestly ask if expecting an armed confrontation, with the result of possible death, is the lesser evil than relocating. I'm not made of money, but I'd rather drop my current lease and find some other section of town to live than have to buy defensive firearms just to feel safe here.
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Re: Guns now more lethal in America than cars

Post by Patroklos »

Covenant wrote:
Patroklos wrote:You are a psychopath then. I have my 9mm to prevent me and mine from getting killed, I could care less what the end state of the attack is.
Unless you are using the pistol to achieve a kill then the nebulous goal of "defense" shows a misapplication of intent. You can just as well protect you and yours (whatever that means) from kill by moving away, or carrying mace, or a tazer, or hiring personal security, or so on.
You are fundamentally misunderstanding the use of deadly force as practiced by entities like military and law enforcement. The idea is to neutralize the threat, not kill. As I said I am absolutely fine with any outcome that leaves me and mine unharmed following my use of a firearm such as injuring them and them being incapacitated, injuring them and them running away, missing them entirely and them running away, them surrendering and yes them being killed outright.

This is the US armed forces definition of deadly force.

"Deadly force, as defined by the United States Armed Forces, is the force which a person uses, causing—or that a person knows, or should know, would create a substantial risk of causing— death, serious bodily harm or injury."

Using deadly force doesn't mean you have to hope they die or even intend that, just that the situation warrants that outcome should it happen and you understand that's a very likely outcome.

In addition the use of deadly force is not the only pistols value. The THREAT is too. We have hemmed and hawed about open/concealed carry reducing crime or ownership statistics discouraging criminal activity and I have no time for that here. However, unless someone is there specifically to kill me and sometimes even then chambering a round will send any casual intruder running (I live in a loft so they will hear it). That is my first line of defense, not shooting them. Brandishing works too, but that exposes you to risk or may incite a fight response from an intruder who otherwise might just flee.

That said shotguns are also a good choice for home defense, no argument there. They are also big an cumbersome, and I prefer my handgun for this purpose. If I had a larger home with straight hallways and large rooms I would probably go with the shotgun. My 9mm is also the same as my service pistol, so that was a factor regarding proficiency. I also have an asp at home, but that again not only requires you to brandish but also close exposing yourself to more danger and again maybe forcing a confrontation the far more effective threat of a pistol could prevent. I live in a loft as I said on the third and fourth floors of a condo building with one exit on the lower level so no your lesser options are not attractive to me. My interior and exterior walls are also brick with heavy timber rafter and floors, so I have a unique situation when it comes to containing missed shots to my unit.
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Re: Guns now more lethal in America than cars

Post by Covenant »

I wasn't hoping to make them attractive, just demonstrate that the end state does have something to do with why people choose firearms over other options they feel are less effective. I'm not even trying to convince people to go buy shotguns, just to drag the line of discussion away from handguns as the ideal home defense weapon, and ideally away from home defense in general. When we want to examine the world-wide (or just nation-wide) effect that firearms have in contributing to homicide and injury, leaving the handgun out there as a unassailable "necessary evil" for self defense is giving it too much leeway. If we are talking about gun violence then gang fighting and criminal enterprise are the reason we see such death. If we want to solve that then we need social reforms anyway.

Frankly, the responsible gun owner is not really a societal problem, but the handgun is certainly no friend to anyone.

Neutralizing a threat is a great thing, but when you say "protect" is the goal then "neutralize" is no longer actually necessary. Not every threat must be neutralized. If chambering a round will send most intruders running then you don't even need a real firearm. You certainly don't need a modern handgun, with a comparatively quiet mechanism, when something big and noisy would be much more intimidating.

Aside from using fear as a defense, you can use defenses as defense as well. Security systems, metal grates, good locks, and apartment complexes with a lobby staff are all good ways to protect a residence from invasion, and none of them fail if you are sick, or hung over, or absent. None of them require the owner to take deadly force into the equation either. In a generic "broad strokes" discussion there seems to be a machismo about protection that undervalues passive defenses and places weaponry above reliable measures that can still protect "yours" when you are away. When a family is part of the equation then I would absolutely say that iron bars over the window will do more, when you're not there, than your sidearm will.

That aside, I'm not going to tell you in particular that you shouldn't use a weapon you know well, since that's really the one you SHOULD be using, but I would contest the criticism of shotguns as cumbersome. They really don't have much more of a horizontal profile than an extended pistol, though a servicemember who has been actually trained to use pistols will certainly have their own opinion. I personally find them no more unwieldy, as they fit into the shoulder rather than rest solely in the hands, with the added bonus of being easier to hit things with.
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Re: Guns now more lethal in America than cars

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

I personally find them no more unwieldy, as they fit into the shoulder rather than rest solely in the hands, with the added bonus of being easier to hit things with.
I certainly have no hard evidence to back this up, but I would suspect that for the average, not-professionally-trained individual a shotgun would be easier to shoot than a pistol. Even if you aren't used to dealing with the recoil, the sort of natural way of holding an object shaped like a shotgun is pretty close to the optimal way to shoot it, which isn't true of pistols. I think it is harder to learn how to hold and line up a pistol in your hand than it is to learn how to prop a shotgun against your shoulder. This is based just on my own personal experience; first time I picked up a shotgun was skeet shooting, and I immediately started hitting targets. First time I picked up a pistol at a target range I was all over the place (well, not literally).
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Re: Guns now more lethal in America than cars

Post by Flagg »

Patroklos wrote:You are a psychopath then. I have my 9mm to prevent me and mine from getting killed, I could care less what the end state of the attack is.
Wow. So because I aim for the center of mass, aka the chest, (which is full of organs and arteries that if damaged can kill someone instantly) in what would almost certainly be the darkish interior of my former home, of an intruder who 1) has the balls to enter an occupied home at night, 2) Since this person has entered my home in the middle of the night knowing occupants are home, what am I to assume? 3) I assume this person is armed and willing to use deadly force against me or my mother. Yeah, I'm going to give him a chance to surrender or run, but if he takes a single step towards me I'm going to fire my 9mm handgun into their center of mass until they are no longer an imminent threat. As anyone else who has ever taken any type of firearms training will tell you to do. Because if you point a loaded handgun at someone and pull the trigger you are doing it to kill them, whether you want them to die or not.

Now that I've dealt with the idiot and his bizarre completely irrelevant bullshit, The best gun for most home security situations is a 12 gauge pump action shotgun. Not because it does more damage, but because when you chamber your first shell your average midnight intruder will shit their pants and run away as fast as they can, not necessarily in that order. Unfortunately shotguns are large and unwieldy within the confines of most homes.

Of course this was all in Florida where there was the real threat of lawlessness, looting, and even just roaming packs of hungry dogs on the prowl if we got hit by a major hurricane that essentially caused social order to break down for a period of time. Once we moved to a safer state (Washington) I sold the damned guns because the average dispatch time where I live now isn't 15 minutes like it was in FL and frankly, my dogs are scarier despite them secretly being sweethearts who wouldn't harm an intruder so much as expect them to play.
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Re: Guns now more lethal in America than cars

Post by General Zod »

Now that I've dealt with the idiot and his bizarre completely irrelevant bullshit, The best gun for most home security situations is a 12 gauge pump action shotgun. Not because it does more damage, but because when you chamber your first shell your average midnight intruder will shit their pants and run away as fast as they can, not necessarily in that order. Unfortunately shotguns are large and unwieldy within the confines of most homes.
You're also unlikely to miss with a shotgun simply thanks to the pellet spread.
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Re: Guns now more lethal in America than cars

Post by Flagg »

General Zod wrote:
Now that I've dealt with the idiot and his bizarre completely irrelevant bullshit, The best gun for most home security situations is a 12 gauge pump action shotgun. Not because it does more damage, but because when you chamber your first shell your average midnight intruder will shit their pants and run away as fast as they can, not necessarily in that order. Unfortunately shotguns are large and unwieldy within the confines of most homes.
You're also unlikely to miss with a shotgun simply thanks to the pellet spread.
Yeah, they are great home defense weapons if you're in a "siege" situation like a home intrusion where you can get to cover, but that's such a rare occurrence. The reason the shotgun in most situations is so effective is that, like you said, you're less likely to miss, and if I have a handgun standing across a room (maybe 20 feet) with a handgun, I would drop it and hope the homeowner is someone like me who would hold me at gunpoint while waiting for the police to arrive. But like I said, they are unwieldy within a smallish house, especially around corners.
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Re: Guns now more lethal in America than cars

Post by Patroklos »

Flagg wrote:
Patroklos wrote:You are a psychopath then. I have my 9mm to prevent me and mine from getting killed, I could care less what the end state of the attack is.
Wow. So because I aim for the center of mass, aka the chest, (which is full of organs and arteries that if damaged can kill someone instantly) in what would almost certainly be the darkish interior of my former home, of an intruder who 1) has the balls to enter an occupied home at night, 2) Since this person has entered my home in the middle of the night knowing occupants are home, what am I to assume? 3) I assume this person is armed and willing to use deadly force against me or my mother. Yeah, I'm going to give him a chance to surrender or run, but if he takes a single step towards me I'm going to fire my 9mm handgun into their center of mass until they are no longer an imminent threat. As anyone else who has ever taken any type of firearms training will tell you to do. Because if you point a loaded handgun at someone and pull the trigger you are doing it to kill them, whether you want them to die or not.
Thanks for agreeing with me. You could have just said that without all the turgid irrelevancies.
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Re: Guns now more lethal in America than cars

Post by Flagg »

Patroklos wrote:
Flagg wrote:
Patroklos wrote:You are a psychopath then. I have my 9mm to prevent me and mine from getting killed, I could care less what the end state of the attack is.
Wow. So because I aim for the center of mass, aka the chest, (which is full of organs and arteries that if damaged can kill someone instantly) in what would almost certainly be the darkish interior of my former home, of an intruder who 1) has the balls to enter an occupied home at night, 2) Since this person has entered my home in the middle of the night knowing occupants are home, what am I to assume? 3) I assume this person is armed and willing to use deadly force against me or my mother. Yeah, I'm going to give him a chance to surrender or run, but if he takes a single step towards me I'm going to fire my 9mm handgun into their center of mass until they are no longer an imminent threat. As anyone else who has ever taken any type of firearms training will tell you to do. Because if you point a loaded handgun at someone and pull the trigger you are doing it to kill them, whether you want them to die or not.
Thanks for agreeing with me. You could have just said that without all the turgid irrelevancies.
Then don't go around internet diagnosing people as fucking psychopaths. Dick.
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