"English Votes For English Laws" passes...

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"English Votes For English Laws" passes...

Post by Zaune »

... and boy have they botched it.

BBC News
Plans to introduce "English votes for English laws" for MPs have been voted through in the House of Commons.

The government won the backing of MPs by 312 to 270 votes. A series of amendments by Lib Dem and Labour MPs were also defeated.

Commons leader Chris Grayling dismissed objections to the new law as "nonsense" during a bad-tempered debate.

The SNP's Pete Wishart said the "stupid" plans would make Scottish MPs "second class citizens".

How it will work

There will now be a new stage added to the usual law-making process at Westminster allowing MPs for English constituencies to vote on issues deemed to only affect England.

These MPs would be able to veto the legislation before all MPs from across the United Kingdom voted in the bill's final readings.

Speaker John Bercow will decide whether a Bill only affects England, and all MPs in the Commons will still have to pass legislation at other stages of the process.

The Speaker will be able to explain his reason for certifying an issue as English or English and Welsh only and call on two senior MPs to help make the ruling.

What the government says


The idea is to eliminate the anomaly where Scottish MPs in Westminster can vote on matters such as health or education in England, but English MPs cannot do likewise on issues devolved to the Scottish Parliament. This is known as the West Lothian question and has tormented MPs for decades.

Mr Grayling told MPs: "These proposed changes enable us to give an answer to the West Lothian question, they enable us to give an answer to our constituents, to say England will have its own piece of our devolution settlement."

He rejected as "nonsense" claims that it would create "two classes of MPs" adding that the measures were "fair, sensible and I'm entirely comfortable as a unionist presenting them to this House".

He added: "It can't be in anyone's interest to see English people becoming cynical about the union... it isn't tenable to have devolution for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and for England to have no powers at all."

What the SNP, Labour and other parties said

The SNP's Pete Wishart told MPs: "Scotland is watching this and the mood is darkening. If this is an exercise in saving the Union you could not have contrived of a more inept way to save the Union.

"Support for independence is actually increasing."

Labour's Chris Bryant said Mr Grayling's plans were so complicated that they resembled a "bowl of soggy, overcooked spaghetti" and claimed they would hasten the break up of the United Kingdom.

Labour backs "an English voice in Parliament" but does not want "an English veto," which would set England against Scotland.

DUP leader Nigel Dodds said: "The proposals neither deal with the problem they diagnose" and threatens the "fabric of our union".

Lib Dem Alistair Carmichael said the government "was still inviting" MPs "to do the wrong thing".

Image

Conservative MPs happy

Heather Wheeler, Conservative MP for South Derbyshire, said she was "delighted" the plans are being introduced - telling MPs it is a matter of utmost importance to her constituents who object to MPs from devolved nations voting on England-only matters.

Senior Conservative MP John Redwood, who wants an English Parliament, backed the "very mild and moderate" proposals which he said would "start to put right some of the injustice to England".

He said English MPs had "always been at the bottom of the heap" and that it was wrong that Scottish MPs could vote on matters in his constituency, such as hospitals and schools, but that he didn't have the right to vote on these matters in Scotland.

Why it matters


When Scotland voted last year to remain part of the UK, David Cameron promised significantly increased powers for the Scottish Parliament, including the ability to set some tax and benefit levels.

At the same time, he promised English MPs they would get more power too - they would be able to legislate in areas such as health and education without any input from MPs representing Scottish seats.

Getting the balance of power between the different legislative bodies right is seen as important to the future of the UK.

If the Westminster Parliament is going to have any authority, voters from all parts of the country must feel they are being fairly represented.
Notice anything missing? Like, you know, any clear direction on what constitutes an English-only issue or a process by which Scottish or Welsh MPs can challenge the Speaker's decision?
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Re: "English Votes For English Laws" passes...

Post by Tribble »

Erm, why didn't they just make a national assembly for England? It worked for Wales and Scotland.
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Re: "English Votes For English Laws" passes...

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Presumably because that would include adding another layer of bureaucracy to the system, and another layer of taxpayer-funded lawmakers, which with a Tory government intent on spending less is a reasonable objection. And frankly, the last thing we need at this point is more sodding politicians.

Though adding a National assembly for England would make more sense than this...mishmash of a plan, no doubt you'd also get people saying "well if Wales/Scotland get devolved powers why can't Yorkshire" (I've actually heard that, and since Yorkshire IIRC has more people than Scotland does, makes some amount of sense).
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Re: "English Votes For English Laws" passes...

Post by Zaune »

I'm going to make a separate thread for what passes for devolution for the English regions...
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Re: "English Votes For English Laws" passes...

Post by Tribble »

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Presumably because that would include adding another layer of bureaucracy to the system, and another layer of taxpayer-funded lawmakers, which with a Tory government intent on spending less is a reasonable objection. And frankly, the last thing we need at this point is more sodding politicians.

Though adding a National assembly for England would make more sense than this...mishmash of a plan, no doubt you'd also get people saying "well if Wales/Scotland get devolved powers why can't Yorkshire" (I've actually heard that, and since Yorkshire IIRC has more people than Scotland does, makes some amount of sense).
It doesn't necessarily have to add more politicians. You could just have a completely separate assembly which the English MPs sit in.
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Re: "English Votes For English Laws" passes...

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

...Now that would make sense. Though you'd probably still hear shouting from Scottish MP's about being second-class or something. Now if you re-structured things so that the Scottish Parliarment were replaced with this sub-assembly of Scottish MPs, and did the same for Wales and Northern Ireland, that would be nice and fair.
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Re: "English Votes For English Laws" passes...

Post by Prannon »

Tribble wrote:
Eternal_Freedom wrote:Presumably because that would include adding another layer of bureaucracy to the system, and another layer of taxpayer-funded lawmakers, which with a Tory government intent on spending less is a reasonable objection. And frankly, the last thing we need at this point is more sodding politicians.

Though adding a National assembly for England would make more sense than this...mishmash of a plan, no doubt you'd also get people saying "well if Wales/Scotland get devolved powers why can't Yorkshire" (I've actually heard that, and since Yorkshire IIRC has more people than Scotland does, makes some amount of sense).
It doesn't necessarily have to add more politicians. You could just have a completely separate assembly which the English MPs sit in.
Minor but important detail... but a person can only be in one place at a time. I can see a completely separate assembly being a huge scheduling hassle and time sink for the current English MPs.
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Re: "English Votes For English Laws" passes...

Post by streetad »

Scottish MPs are already 'second class' if you want to look at it like that given that half of their job is done by an MSP...
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Re: "English Votes For English Laws" passes...

Post by Tribble »

Minor but important detail... but a person can only be in one place at a time. I can see a completely separate assembly being a huge scheduling hassle and time sink for the current English MPs.
Scheduling hassle and time sink? That's assuming MPs actually work for a living. Besides, they are already masters of moving from one pointless meeting to another, I'm sure they'd have no difficulties adjusting to a new schedule.
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Re: "English Votes For English Laws" passes...

Post by madd0ct0r »

Prannon wrote:
Tribble wrote:
Eternal_Freedom wrote:Presumably because that would include adding another layer of bureaucracy to the system, and another layer of taxpayer-funded lawmakers, which with a Tory government intent on spending less is a reasonable objection. And frankly, the last thing we need at this point is more sodding politicians.

Though adding a National assembly for England would make more sense than this...mishmash of a plan, no doubt you'd also get people saying "well if Wales/Scotland get devolved powers why can't Yorkshire" (I've actually heard that, and since Yorkshire IIRC has more people than Scotland does, makes some amount of sense).
It doesn't necessarily have to add more politicians. You could just have a completely separate assembly which the English MPs sit in.
Minor but important detail... but a person can only be in one place at a time. I can see a completely separate assembly being a huge scheduling hassle and time sink for the current English MPs.
pity they need to be at Westminster to vote and their constituency to work then...
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Re: "English Votes For English Laws" passes...

Post by Dartzap »

Baring in mind that Westminster Palace is in need of several billion quids worth of repairs, it's not the worst time to consider building a new parliament building. Get em used to something even remotely modern and not ridden with asbestos and they'll stay there. Palm the Palace off to the National Trust and bobs your uncle!

I nominate Milton Keynes as the new political centre. They deserve it.
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Re: "English Votes For English Laws" passes...

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Dartzap wrote:bobs your uncle!
Actually he's my brother, but close enough :D

As for the actual idea, yeah it's probably a good idea, though knowing how government projects run it'll somehow wind up costing more than renovating Westminster would.
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Re: "English Votes For English Laws" passes...

Post by Welf »

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Presumably because that would include adding another layer of bureaucracy to the system, and another layer of taxpayer-funded lawmakers, which with a Tory government intent on spending less is a reasonable objection. And frankly, the last thing we need at this point is more sodding politicians.

Though adding a National assembly for England would make more sense than this...mishmash of a plan, no doubt you'd also get people saying "well if Wales/Scotland get devolved powers why can't Yorkshire" (I've actually heard that, and since Yorkshire IIRC has more people than Scotland does, makes some amount of sense).
The idea of devolution isn't to double the administrations, but to give them to different layers and manage them more locally. How did that work in Scotland? Do they suffer from more bureaucracy?
And I think it would be a better idea to create more than one assembly for England. Maybe reinstate the old 7 anglo-saxon kingdoms. Then you'd end up with 10 regions with each having around 6,5 million people (although London should be one region). That is a quite manageable size and helps to decentralize politics.
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