Mass sexual assault in Cologne, including rape cases

[Thanas]

Lebanon and Turkey are accepting them. But Turkey - being Turkey - bans them from working and does not have the greatest of assistance, so most of the refugees there are working in the black market. Sex slavery and exploitation of refugees is common there. In Lebanon there is widespread poverty among refugees as well.

So the refugees are - understandably - seeking better standards of living.

[Broomstick]

Random question.. are other middle eastern countries which are unaffected by ISIS (such as Saudi Arabia, etc) already flooded with more refugees than they can handle?

Not Saudia Arabia, which is not letting in anyone who doesn't have a relative already living legally in SA, but nations such as Lebanon and Jordan ARE full to bursting. Lebanon, for example, now has about 1.4 million refugees living in it... compared to a citizen population of about 5 million and change. That means 1/5 of the people living in Lebanon on refugees. That would be roughly like Germany taking in 1.6 million, or the US taking in 6 million... except that both Germany and the US are considerably wealthier than Lebanon. Oh, by the way, that's just the Syrian refugees in Lebanon, they've been taking in refugees from various conflicts from decades.

I'm sure Lebanon, Jordan, et al would be happy to take any aid the Europeans care to give in regards to helping out with the crisis, but really, expecting Lebanon to taking in another 2 million or more is just ridiculous

[The Romulan Republic]

Um... one in five would be like the US taking in over 80 million people.

[Broomstick]

That's terrible, why aren't other middle eastern countries accepting refugees?

Some of them are.

I mean, they're geographically nearer, meaning less chances for the genuine refugees to get exploited (or worse, not surviving the trip), they'll have less trouble integrating into the culture, and equally importantly they share the same religion.

Umm.. you have several false presumptions there.

1) PLENTY of exploitation of refugees goes on in the MENA. Human rights there are not what they are in Europe and non-citizens tend to be at much more of a disadvantage legally and socially.

2) There are some very significant cultural differences between MENA nations. For example, Iranians are not Arabs, they have a different language, customs, history, ethnicity, etc. MENA nations are no more alike than, say, France and Bulgaria.

3) No, actually, they don't share the same religion - there are different types of Islam, the biggest division being between Sunni and Shia, and they go to war with each other just like Catholics and Protestants used to fuck up Europe over religion despite both groups being Christian.

- Middle eastern cultural values have their men view women in a manner which is unacceptable, which leads them to display horrible behavior toward women when they go to a European country
- Men everywhere (including both native Europeans and middle eastern refugees) all display equally horrible horrible behavior toward women, and xenophobes are just publicizing this normal behavior as an excuse to ostracize male middle eastern refugees.

Some from column A, some from column B. SOME men everywhere are total assholes towards women, but it gets downplayed within a culture. MENA nations (along with some from other regions) do have a greater tolerance towards some types of sexual harassment and abuse than Europe does.

In either case, if there are quarters among the native Europeans that don't agree with accepting a large refugee population, then it's clearly better if other Muslim middle eastern countries (untouched by ISIS) accept the refugees.
So I find it puzzling that they do not..

See above. Also, those willing to take in refugees have already taken in millions and are under considerable financial and social stress from it.

[Broomstick]

Um... one in five would be like the US taking in over 80 million people.

And... more proof my math skills are shit, especially before dawn

Anyhow - even worse. The point is made.

[K. A. Pital]

Mode of dress was irrelevant as female refugees - presumably also Muslim - were ruthlessly assaulted as well.

But good luck proving otherwise, cmdrjones.

You're not selling this whole "we should let the refugees in because reasons" thing very well if the best you have is "HA! got ya, they rape their OWN women TOO you rapist hater!"

Why should I be selling something? You claim to know my position on the refugee crisis?

[cmdrjones]

Metahive, your post is entirely irrelevant to the topic at hand and it is also using a lot of questionable sources. For example, your first one, is the "institute" headed by Christian Pfeiffer, aka the guy who blamed counterstrike and doom for school shootings and mass atttacks and also claimed computer games would lead people to murder and crime. He is not a credible source. Your third source is also not credible because those crime stats are essentially self-reported and a hallmark of patriarchal societies is not reporting violence against women. See for example Saudi Arabia. And your fourth source is not really something that is distinct to Germany either, nor did anybody claim anything different.

And nobody claimed that "sexual violence is an exclusive foreign import" as you put it, so bravo for knocking that strawman you erected by yourself down.


So please stop fucking up this thread even further by introducing a number of side shows and tangents.

I don't know, I kinda enjoy reports from the Embassy of the slaver kingdom from deep in occupied deutchistan...

[cmdrjones]

Mode of dress was irrelevant as female refugees - presumably also Muslim - were ruthlessly assaulted as well.

But good luck proving otherwise, cmdrjones.

You're not selling this whole "we should let the refugees in because reasons" thing very well if the best you have is "HA! got ya, they rape their OWN women TOO you rapist hater!"

Why should I be selling something? You claim to know my position on the refugee crisis?

Perhaps I misspoke... As a communist you must want retrograde elements deported to Siberia where they can be worked to death mining bauxite, correct?

[Iroscato]

Nice to see you've shed all pretense and are now actively trolling, Jurns. You will make a fine Parting Shots thread one day, my pretty.

[K. A. Pital]

Perhaps I misspoke... As a communist you must want retrograde elements deported to Siberia where they can be worked to death mining bauxite, correct?

Perhaps you did. Your dumbass trolling cannot distract me from the fact you claimed something obviously false (that Muslim women are not attacked). You should stop being an idiot troll, and then, perhaps, I shall take you seriously. Truth be told, your contribution is rapidly falling into negative territory. Comicalstorm, though he spouted alarmist bullcrap, contributes to the current thread with news. You, on the other hand...

[Thanas]

Perhaps I misspoke... As a communist you must want retrograde elements deported to Siberia where they can be worked to death mining bauxite, correct?

Jones, I have had it with your unrepentant trolling in this thread here and elsewhere. The next time you do something like this, whether it be here in this thread or elsewhere, you will get banned. Permanently. This warning will stand until somebody from the admins feels you have any redeeming value.

I shall also add that there is currently a discussion going on with regards to simply banning you outright.

[cmdrjones]

Perhaps I misspoke... As a communist you must want retrograde elements deported to Siberia where they can be worked to death mining bauxite, correct?

Perhaps you did. Your dumbass trolling cannot distract me from the fact you claimed something obviously false (that Muslim women are not attacked). You should stop being an idiot troll, and then, perhaps, I shall take you seriously. Truth be told, your contribution is rapidly falling into negative territory. Comicalstorm, though he spouted alarmist bullcrap, contributes to the current thread with news. You, on the other hand...

No I said they were not attacked en masse... A key point, mainly because they do not dress in such a way to present themselves as targets nor do they gather in large mixed crowds with unmarried males in order to socialize

[ray245]

A friend of mine did say she was being approached by a bunch of male refugees/migrants and questioned as to why she was travelling alone. So yes, I would think that there is some element of sexism that makes non-MENA women a particular target of harassment.

Right now, the challenges are about easing a very large community into a very different cultural environment. There will be some refugees will embrace the better socio-economic environment of Europe while rejecting the more liberal social norms. Liberal attitudes isn't some sort of gospel truth that everyone from a conservative environment will embrace once they are in a more liberal country.

I'm not sure how much effort all the countries in Europe are putting into educating the newly arrived refugees and migrants about what kind of social behaviour are not tolerated. People don't give up their social norms, no matter how screwed up it is as easily as we would like. And I'm not sure the current attitude of relying on the law as a means of educating tool is helpful.

What will happen is there will be a disparate proportion of people from MENA background ending up in jail because they were unable to adapt to a very different cultural/legal environment. It will create communities that see themselves as being discriminated unfairly because they think they are being subjected to unequal treatment.

Basically, we are asking them to stop being conservative. People will hate this.

[Batman]

Sucks to be them then. You come to our country, you obey our laws or face the consequences. This isn't the 3rd world 12th century rules shithole you fled from. But if you don't like that, you're welcome to go back.
You wanna play in our sandbox, you play by our rules. If you can't do that, go back to where you came from. If being allowed to harass, threaten and possibly rape women with impunity is more important to you than not being killed chances are the world is a better place without you.

[ray245]

Sucks to be them then. You come to our country, you obey our laws or face the consequences. This isn't the 3rd world 12th century rules shithole you fled from. But if you don't like that, you're welcome to go back.
You wanna play in our sandbox, you play by our rules. If you can't do that, go back to where you came from. If being allowed to harass, threaten and possibly rape women with impunity is more important to you than not being killed chances are the world is a better place without you.

The point is many of them don't know that. They have no idea what it means to be living in a liberal country and what that entails ( besides not breaking the obvious laws). Not every refugee who fled to Europe wants to assimilate. A number of them simply want to live their old way of life undisturbed by war. Just because someone is fleeing from ISIS and Assad does not mean they are running towards a more liberal lifestyle. If places like Turkey allows them to live a pretty decent life, many of them would not bother fleeing to Europe.

I think many Syrians and Iraqis will be more than happy to stay in Syria and Iraq if they weren't ruined by war. People tend to overestimate how easy it is for people to cope with the cultural transition. There are people who simply do not and will not admit that their way of life that they grew up in is considered wrong by modern western standards.

[Simon_Jester]

Thing is, the "you play by our rules or go back where you came from" stance involves, in this case, deporting refugees back to countries undergoing a civil war, and some of those refugees have families.

There are political factions in Europe which do not consider that acceptable. The thing is, I'm not sure they've actually got a coherent picture of how they intend to resolve this problem. Proclaiming that the obvious and customary solution is "unacceptable" is all very well, but what do you do instead?

[ray245]

Thing is, the "you play by our rules or go back where you came from" stance involves, in this case, deporting refugees back to countries undergoing a civil war, and some of those refugees have families.

There are political factions in Europe which do not consider that acceptable. The thing is, I'm not sure they've actually got a coherent picture of how they intend to resolve this problem. Proclaiming that the obvious and customary solution is "unacceptable" is all very well, but what do you do instead?

For one, try and engage the newly arrived refugees about what is expected of them besides learning the local language. If Europe wants to turn them into liberals, say it openly instead of hiding behind multiculturalism. As it is, the multiculturalism we are talking about is only acceptable if all the culture within it are liberal.

What we got in the currently is this confusing and aimless direction, where no one knows what sort of cultural criticism is acceptable and what sort of criticism isn't. This is perfect fuel for hardliners on both sides to exploit.

Make it clear to the refugees that if they wish to be a part of Europe, adopting European culture and outright rejecting MANY of their old custom and habits are important. If Germany wants to turn the Syrians and Iraqis into Germans culturally, then they need to make it really obvious.

[Simon_Jester]

Thing is, that's not an alternative to deporting refugees whose failure to assimilate is potentially a threat to the host nation. Because inevitably, not all the refugees will consent to this- and since they're pouring across the border anyway regardless of what you want or say, you have to have some plan for the ones who don't.

Either they have to be held out of the nation by force, or expelled by force, or allowed to do as they please, because in at least some cases force is the only thing likely to actually stop them in a timely manner.

Which doesn't mean liberal values are wrong or something. It simply means we have to be realistic and intelligent about foreseeing the consequences of actions, and accepting that not everyone will do as we expect or desire, and that sometimes it is necessary to protect the many from the disruptive actions of the few.

[Batman]

You don't want to assimilate, don't come here. It's a package deal. You get food, shelter, and not being killed by religious idiots who want to murder you because you're the wrong subset of your religion, and in return you play by our rules. If you don't LIKE those rules you can always go elsewhere.

I will not give the regugees that much leeway just because they're refugees. Your way of life sucks, it doesn't stop sucking just because somebody whose way of life sucked even more drove you out, and I fail to see why we should be required to allow you any leeway in keeping that way of life when it clearly violates local law.

[Grumman]

The point is many of them don't know that. They have no idea what it means to be living in a liberal country and what that entails ( besides not breaking the obvious laws). Not every refugee who fled to Europe wants to assimilate. A number of them simply want to live their old way of life undisturbed by war. Just because someone is fleeing from ISIS and Assad does not mean they are running towards a more liberal lifestyle.

It also does not mean they're not terrible human beings who should not be allowed into the country under any circumstances. Someone fleeing ISIL might be an innocent victim, but sometimes it's just some deserter who got cold feet when he realised joining ISIL wasn't all it's cracked up to be. The enemy of our enemy is not our friend, especially not in a clusterfuck like the Syrian civil war.

[ray245]

Thing is, that's not an alternative to deporting refugees whose failure to assimilate is potentially a threat to the host nation. Because inevitably, not all the refugees will consent to this- and since they're pouring across the border anyway regardless of what you want or say, you have to have some plan for the ones who don't.

Either they have to be held out of the nation by force, or expelled by force, or allowed to do as they please, because in at least some cases force is the only thing likely to actually stop them in a timely manner.

Which doesn't mean liberal values are wrong or something. It simply means we have to be realistic and intelligent about foreseeing the consequences of actions, and accepting that not everyone will do as we expect or desire, and that sometimes it is necessary to protect the many from the disruptive actions of the few.

True, but an all stick approach is a horrible way to integrate a new population into Europe. There are many who simply do not see any incentive in changing their cultural habits just because they are living in a different area. And this applies even to countries that share tons of cultural similarities.

The banner of multiculturalism allows people to not integrate because there's no need to do so. And any dialogue challenging multiculturalism is viewed as racism and xenophobia that it allows the far right to gain more influence.

The refusal to admit that some refugees are horrible people is severely undermining any progress being made in terms of helping the refugees.

[Edi]

At least in Finland there is an ongoing program to educate the asylum seekers about the cultural issues, expectations and behavior norms here. It's having a slow impact. The more of them there are, the slower it is going to be, because amongst themselves they will cling to the old ways. However, in addition to the education, the stick does need to be there, and it needs to be displayed very prominently. And for those who do not even make an attempt to assimilate, every time there is a conflict stemming from that, the stick needs to be used on them without hesitation.

Right now there is too much downplaying of the problems, which makes it look like a coverup, which hardens the public attitudes.

[mr friendly guy]

In Australia we have our own problems, but I think Europe has a problem of doing multiculturalism, which doesn't help the current situation. I mean Thanas has mentioned second generation Turks who still don't speak German. This seems unthinkable in Australia.

Integration is going to be a difficult process. Not helped by these asylum seekers causing sexual assaults and the other side who treats refugees as a monolithic group rather than individuals who commit a crime.

[Cykeisme]

Responses here clarified a lot of questions, and cleared up a lot of misconceptions I had, thanks!

[Broomstick]

There are methods used by several nations to help refugees integrated into their new society but part of the problem is the sheer number of people pouring into Europe right now.