About half of Israels Jews support expelling arabs

[Tribble]

Neither am I, but your solution is what? That was the key question raised by others as well. What is your solution?

You don't propose any since you damn well know there's none. Not unless the whole place is occupied and UN-peacekeeper administered a-la Kosovo or something, which of course won't go as Israel has WMDs.

I've been saying from the start I don't have any idea how to end this without millions of causalities, the difference between you and me is that I disagree with the behaviour of both sides, where it is becoming increasingly clear that you support Hamas' terrorist tactics, even though you know as well as I do that they won't work, and that they are deplorable.

I want to ask you this, if some people come and take over your place, would you go out fighting or would you go out quietly, saying that you "understand" the occupiers, even if you cannot excuse their actions?

To be more specific, would I target civilians, attack nuclear power plants, use human shields, use buildings like schools and hospitals to stash weapons etc? No. I will not stoop to that level of barbarism under any circumstances, even if it had chance at working (which it doesn't in this case). If you were hoping to convince me of the merits of terrorism and why I should support it when it comes to the Palestinians, you're fighting a lost cause of your own.

Also I remember a poll somewhere that during Oslo most palestinians actually SUPPORTED the two state solution. Israel behaved dishonorably and refused to actually honor their arrangements

As did the Palestine, since they also continued their attacks after Oslo.

The Israeli supreme court found that ISRAEL was the one using human shields. Various human right's groups have found that the israelis overexxagerated the "human shields" charge

To be specific, Israel accuses Hamas of forcing people to be human shields, while the reality is that Hamas merely encourages people to remain as human shields and stay put when Israel launches an attack on one of their military facilities. Facilities which are built in civilian areas. They want them to die as martyrs because that will help make Israel look bad. You're right, that soooo much better.

Congrats, you just described every protest ever in history by a less powerful person against a violent occupier.

But guess what: No occupied populace has ever been required to come up with any sort of sensible plan to resist invaders besides "we fight them". To claim otherwise is completely bereft of any historical reality.

I mean, wtf is wrong with you people demanding the Palestinians are supposed to come up with some sort of "plan" that will magically make them a hundred times stronger and will completely eradicate US support for Israel? Are you consistently applying that logic to all conflicts in all history ever?

By your fucking logic the Polish Partisans should never have organized a resistance, or the Irish never resisted the English and all other sense of nonsense.

If you take the statement by some of you to the logical extreme, the native americans were at fault for their own extermination. After all, they resisted in a pointless war with no plan, so the USA was right to exterminate them, because that was the predictable behaviour, k? OH wait, what bullshit. They would have been exterminated regardless.

But instead of applauding the underdog you go and say "well, what do you expect when you constantly provoke your violent oppressor".

WTF is wrong with you?

I've yet to hear you own peaceful solution to the situation. Or are you hoping for the day when Hamas gets WMDs? That's pretty much the only way they'll level the playing field, though unlike the Israeli government I'm pretty sure Hamas wouldn't hesitate to use one if they got it.

Lets see: what exactly do the Palestinians have?
An occupier in their ancestral lands.
Said occupier ruthlessly steals their land on a daily basis.
Said occupier is supplied by greater powers because of a bronze age theology.
Said occupier blames the victim for making them kill them.
Said occupier actually does hate them, seeing them as lesser than themselves because...reasons.
Said occupier is a free country in that only those of a specific ethnic group has a say in government.

Does that sum it up or am I missing something? People throw around ideas that Israel has a 'right' to these lands because..religion. Bullshit. It is all smoke and mirrors so a bunch of racist assholes can have 'their' land given to them by themselves and fuck everyone else.

Dude, what drugs are you taking? When did I say that the creation of Israel and Israelis actions are justifiable? I'm pointing out that Hamas' tactics totally eliminate any moral authority they have.

Simon, if we skip the long part of your post and sum it up in one sentence:

if is a very high chance to be defeated by the occupier, it is pointless to fight.

Ireland's previous rebellions made as much sense as all the other failed rebellions. Not all of them were useless, as you say.

Spartacus was right... and you're wrong.

Not quite. The answer is zero. Barring WMDs, and massive external military intervention, the Palestinians have zero chance of causing significant damage to Israel. Even if every single Palestinian picked up a weapon and attacked Israel right now all at once, they'd still get slaughtered without accomplishing anything. Simon's point is that compared to the Palestinians, rebellions like the Irish have always had a much greater chance of success, as the balance of power between the two sides was still much closer than between Israel and Palestine.

And of course, there's the fact that as far as I am aware, none of the other rebellions listed specifically called for the indiscriminate targeting of civilians and other tactics that Hamas frequently uses. And if they did, I wouldn't support them either.



While I'm certainly not a fan of Israel, you're never going to convince me to become a supporter of terrorism, so I suppose debate is futile.

[Flagg]

They bang their head against a bulldozer. It is in their path; its position is threatening. And their solution is to stand there, continuing to headbutt the bulldozer. If the bulldozer should ever back up, they pursue the bulldozer, continuing to deliver the headbutts, which cannot possibly harm the bulldozer or even noticeably inconvenience it- at most, they are an annoyance.

The bulldozer will not go away as a result of this kind of behavior.

The bulldozer will not be weakened.

Outsiders will most likely not drag away the bulldozer and leave you standing triumphant in possession of the construction site.

This pattern of behavior is a recipe for only two possible outcomes.

Congrats, you just described every protest ever in history by a less powerful person against a violent occupier.

But guess what: No occupied populace has ever been required to come up with any sort of sensible plan to resist invaders besides "we fight them". To claim otherwise is completely bereft of any historical reality.

I mean, wtf is wrong with you people demanding the Palestinians are supposed to come up with some sort of "plan" that will magically make them a hundred times stronger and will completely eradicate US support for Israel? Are you consistently applying that logic to all conflicts in all history ever?

By your fucking logic the Polish Partisans should never have organized a resistance, or the Irish never resisted the English and all other sense of nonsense.

If you take the statement by some of you to the logical extreme, the native americans were at fault for their own extermination. After all, they resisted in a pointless war with no plan, so the USA was right to exterminate them, because that was the predictable behaviour, k? OH wait, what bullshit. They would have been exterminated regardless.

But instead of applauding the underdog you go and say "well, what do you expect when you constantly provoke your violent oppressor".

WTF is wrong with you?

Yeah, well the Palestinians are Arab Muslims, so... Figure it out.

Frankly, my solution is that the UN go in with a multinational peacekeeping force that- US vetoed it.

[Flagg]

Neither am I, but your solution is what? That was the key question raised by others as well. What is your solution?

You don't propose any since you damn well know there's none. Not unless the whole place is occupied and UN-peacekeeper administered a-la Kosovo or something, which of course won't go as Israel has WMDs.

I've been saying from the start I don't have any idea how to end this without millions of causalities, the difference between you and me is that I disagree with the behaviour of both sides, where it is becoming increasingly clear that you support Hamas' terrorist tactics, even though you know as well as I do that they won't work, and that they are deplorable.

I want to ask you this, if some people come and take over your place, would you go out fighting or would you go out quietly, saying that you "understand" the occupiers, even if you cannot excuse their actions?

To be more specific, would I target civilians, attack nuclear power plants, use human shields, use buildings like schools and hospitals to stash weapons etc? No. I will not stoop to that level of barbarism under any circumstances, even if it had chance at working (which it doesn't in this case). If you were hoping to convince me of the merits of terrorism and why I should support it when it comes to the Palestinians, you're fighting a lost cause of your own.

Also I remember a poll somewhere that during Oslo most palestinians actually SUPPORTED the two state solution. Israel behaved dishonorably and refused to actually honor their arrangements

As did the Palestine, since they also continued their attacks after Oslo.

The Israeli supreme court found that ISRAEL was the one using human shields. Various human right's groups have found that the israelis overexxagerated the "human shields" charge

To be specific, Israel accuses Hamas of forcing people to be human shields, while the reality is that Hamas merely encourages people to remain as human shields and stay put when Israel launches an attack on one of their military facilities. Facilities which are built in civilian areas. They want them to die as martyrs because that will help make Israel look bad. You're right, that soooo much better.

Congrats, you just described every protest ever in history by a less powerful person against a violent occupier.

But guess what: No occupied populace has ever been required to come up with any sort of sensible plan to resist invaders besides "we fight them". To claim otherwise is completely bereft of any historical reality.

I mean, wtf is wrong with you people demanding the Palestinians are supposed to come up with some sort of "plan" that will magically make them a hundred times stronger and will completely eradicate US support for Israel? Are you consistently applying that logic to all conflicts in all history ever?

By your fucking logic the Polish Partisans should never have organized a resistance, or the Irish never resisted the English and all other sense of nonsense.

If you take the statement by some of you to the logical extreme, the native americans were at fault for their own extermination. After all, they resisted in a pointless war with no plan, so the USA was right to exterminate them, because that was the predictable behaviour, k? OH wait, what bullshit. They would have been exterminated regardless.

But instead of applauding the underdog you go and say "well, what do you expect when you constantly provoke your violent oppressor".

WTF is wrong with you?

I've yet to hear you own peaceful solution to the situation. Or are you hoping for the day when Hamas gets WMDs? That's pretty much the only way they'll level the playing field, though unlike the Israeli government I'm pretty sure Hamas wouldn't hesitate to use one if they got it.

Lets see: what exactly do the Palestinians have?
An occupier in their ancestral lands.
Said occupier ruthlessly steals their land on a daily basis.
Said occupier is supplied by greater powers because of a bronze age theology.
Said occupier blames the victim for making them kill them.
Said occupier actually does hate them, seeing them as lesser than themselves because...reasons.
Said occupier is a free country in that only those of a specific ethnic group has a say in government.

Does that sum it up or am I missing something? People throw around ideas that Israel has a 'right' to these lands because..religion. Bullshit. It is all smoke and mirrors so a bunch of racist assholes can have 'their' land given to them by themselves and fuck everyone else.

Dude, what drugs are you taking? When did I say that the creation of Israel and Israelis actions are justifiable? I'm pointing out that Hamas' tactics totally eliminate any moral authority they have.

Simon, if we skip the long part of your post and sum it up in one sentence:

if is a very high chance to be defeated by the occupier, it is pointless to fight.

Ireland's previous rebellions made as much sense as all the other failed rebellions. Not all of them were useless, as you say.

Spartacus was right... and you're wrong.

Not quite. The answer is zero. Barring WMDs, and massive external military intervention, the Palestinians have zero chance of causing significant damage to Israel. Even if every single Palestinian picked up a weapon and attacked Israel right now all at once, they'd still get slaughtered without accomplishing anything. Simon's point is that compared to the Palestinians, rebellions like the Irish have always had a much greater chance of success, as the balance of power between the two sides was still much closer than between Israel and Palestine.

And of course, there's the fact that as far as I am aware, none of the other rebellions listed specifically called for the indiscriminate targeting of civilians and other tactics that Hamas frequently uses. And if they did, I wouldn't support them either.



While I'm certainly not a fan of Israel, you're never going to convince me to become a supporter of terrorism, so I suppose debate is futile.

The IRA never targeted civilians? Are you on crack?

[Tribble]

Neither am I, but your solution is what? That was the key question raised by others as well. What is your solution?

You don't propose any since you damn well know there's none. Not unless the whole place is occupied and UN-peacekeeper administered a-la Kosovo or something, which of course won't go as Israel has WMDs.

I've been saying from the start I don't have any idea how to end this without millions of causalities, the difference between you and me is that I disagree with the behaviour of both sides, where it is becoming increasingly clear that you support Hamas' terrorist tactics, even though you know as well as I do that they won't work, and that they are deplorable.

I want to ask you this, if some people come and take over your place, would you go out fighting or would you go out quietly, saying that you "understand" the occupiers, even if you cannot excuse their actions?

To be more specific, would I target civilians, attack nuclear power plants, use human shields, use buildings like schools and hospitals to stash weapons etc? No. I will not stoop to that level of barbarism under any circumstances, even if it had chance at working (which it doesn't in this case). If you were hoping to convince me of the merits of terrorism and why I should support it when it comes to the Palestinians, you're fighting a lost cause of your own.

Also I remember a poll somewhere that during Oslo most palestinians actually SUPPORTED the two state solution. Israel behaved dishonorably and refused to actually honor their arrangements

As did the Palestine, since they also continued their attacks after Oslo.

The Israeli supreme court found that ISRAEL was the one using human shields. Various human right's groups have found that the israelis overexxagerated the "human shields" charge

To be specific, Israel accuses Hamas of forcing people to be human shields, while the reality is that Hamas merely encourages people to remain as human shields and stay put when Israel launches an attack on one of their military facilities. Facilities which are built in civilian areas. They want them to die as martyrs because that will help make Israel look bad. You're right, that soooo much better.

Congrats, you just described every protest ever in history by a less powerful person against a violent occupier.

But guess what: No occupied populace has ever been required to come up with any sort of sensible plan to resist invaders besides "we fight them". To claim otherwise is completely bereft of any historical reality.

I mean, wtf is wrong with you people demanding the Palestinians are supposed to come up with some sort of "plan" that will magically make them a hundred times stronger and will completely eradicate US support for Israel? Are you consistently applying that logic to all conflicts in all history ever?

By your fucking logic the Polish Partisans should never have organized a resistance, or the Irish never resisted the English and all other sense of nonsense.

If you take the statement by some of you to the logical extreme, the native americans were at fault for their own extermination. After all, they resisted in a pointless war with no plan, so the USA was right to exterminate them, because that was the predictable behaviour, k? OH wait, what bullshit. They would have been exterminated regardless.

But instead of applauding the underdog you go and say "well, what do you expect when you constantly provoke your violent oppressor".

WTF is wrong with you?

I've yet to hear you own peaceful solution to the situation. Or are you hoping for the day when Hamas gets WMDs? That's pretty much the only way they'll level the playing field, though unlike the Israeli government I'm pretty sure Hamas wouldn't hesitate to use one if they got it.

Lets see: what exactly do the Palestinians have?
An occupier in their ancestral lands.
Said occupier ruthlessly steals their land on a daily basis.
Said occupier is supplied by greater powers because of a bronze age theology.
Said occupier blames the victim for making them kill them.
Said occupier actually does hate them, seeing them as lesser than themselves because...reasons.
Said occupier is a free country in that only those of a specific ethnic group has a say in government.

Does that sum it up or am I missing something? People throw around ideas that Israel has a 'right' to these lands because..religion. Bullshit. It is all smoke and mirrors so a bunch of racist assholes can have 'their' land given to them by themselves and fuck everyone else.

Dude, what drugs are you taking? When did I say that the creation of Israel and Israelis actions are justifiable? I'm pointing out that Hamas' tactics totally eliminate any moral authority they have.

Simon, if we skip the long part of your post and sum it up in one sentence:

if is a very high chance to be defeated by the occupier, it is pointless to fight.

Ireland's previous rebellions made as much sense as all the other failed rebellions. Not all of them were useless, as you say.

Spartacus was right... and you're wrong.

Not quite. The answer is zero. Barring WMDs, and massive external military intervention, the Palestinians have zero chance of causing significant damage to Israel. Even if every single Palestinian picked up a weapon and attacked Israel right now all at once, they'd still get slaughtered without accomplishing anything. Simon's point is that compared to the Palestinians, rebellions like the Irish have always had a much greater chance of success, as the balance of power between the two sides was still much closer than between Israel and Palestine.

And of course, there's the fact that as far as I am aware, none of the other rebellions listed specifically called for the indiscriminate targeting of civilians and other tactics that Hamas frequently uses. And if they did, I wouldn't support them either.



While I'm certainly not a fan of Israel, you're never going to convince me to become a supporter of terrorism, so I suppose debate is futile.

The IRA never targeted civilians? Are you on crack?

Sorry, I thought they were talking about the 1916 rebellion, which as far as I know, did not go out of the way to target civilians.

And ya, I'm not a fan of the IRA. Surprised?

[K. A. Pital]

This thread has been reported for general IvP moratorium violation. I examined the discussion and see no reason not to lock it.