Obama's stunning display on press freedom

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Simon_Jester
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Re: Obama's stunning display on press freedom

Post by Simon_Jester »

Channel72 wrote:Why are we talking about how Bush was worse? Who cares? The point is, the Obama Administration is hardly transparent in any sense, yet Obama is lecturing the media on the need for transparency.
Obama isn't lecturing the media on the need for transparency, he's lecturing the media on the need for fact-checking.

But as to why I brought it up?

Because, bluntly, I'm sick of this rhetorical device where people get so angry over being disappointed in someone that they refuse to even acknowledge other categories of evil than "disappointing me." Sure, fine, you're disappointed; I'm disappointed too. But the left is suffering from what amounts to a cancer of disappointment, of disaffection, of despair. From the refusal to just keep fighting, to do the best we can with the resources available. Instead we sit around being sour and sniping at things we don't like.

So it's time for us to confront our priorities squarely. Which is more important, putting out the fire in our house, or complaining about the horrible job the plumber did last week? Is all we have to say "I'm disappointed in the hypocrites for daring to criticize bad things?" Is that all we are? Because if so, we are spiraling into the drain.
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Re: Obama's stunning display on press freedom

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Re: Obama's stunning display on press freedom

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Journalism 101:
If you want to write an editorial on Obama, just do that.
Don't cover a speech he made about journalistic integrity being crap and turn it into your editorial about a his crap.
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Re: Obama's stunning display on press freedom

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Khaat wrote:Journalism 101:
If you want to write an editorial on Obama, just do that.
Yeah, that article was clearly posted under the Opinion section, so I do not know what you are on about.
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Re: Obama's stunning display on press freedom

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Thanas wrote:Yeah, that article was clearly posted under the Opinion section, so I do not know what you are on about.
I'm "on about" the lead paragraph being misleading. Why choose to lead with a report of Obama's speech about the failings of the press, if you're going to shift the subject to an editorial about his administration's transparency issues failure?

Maybe it's just the writing style I'm grinding-out on. It seems juvenile to me to lead with Obama calling journalistic integrity into question, to counter with "but he sucks, too!"
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Re: Obama's stunning display on press freedom

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Khaat wrote:
Thanas wrote:Yeah, that article was clearly posted under the Opinion section, so I do not know what you are on about.
I'm "on about" the lead paragraph being misleading. Why choose to lead with a report of Obama's speech about the failings of the press, if you're going to shift the subject to an editorial about his administration's transparency issues failure?
It's a rhetorical tool. Basically, they use the speech as an opener, to explain why they find him hypocritical and a bit rich that the guy who hampers the press at any turn now scolds them for not doing their job - as if he had nothing to do with that job being harder in the first place.

It is like the arsonist complaining the fire brigade did not put out the fire quick enough.
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Re: Obama's stunning display on press freedom

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Transparency ("can't do his job in the manner he said he was going to") isn't the same issue as failure to fact-check ("can't do their fucking job at all.")
Thanas wrote:It is like the arsonist complaining the fire brigade did not put out the fire quick enough.
No, this would be the child-molester in his ice cream truck complaining that the firetruck was blocking his way into a residential neighborhood.

I find the leap inappropriate. Probably just a matter of style, like I said.
Thanas wrote:to explain why they find him hypocritical and a bit rich that the guy who hampers the press at any turn now scolds them for not doing their job - as if he had nothing to do with that job being harder in the first place.
Where did Obama make fact-checking more difficult in the circus that is the US primaries (and soon, general election)? Or common politics?

I understand his administration has pulled the "National Security!" card out (too often? I dunno), but what does that have to do with the everyday news cycle broadly turning into "reality tv show" (i.e., "barely-real-crap-plus-spin!-for-ratings") in quality?
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Re: Obama's stunning display on press freedom

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Khaat wrote:I find the leap inappropriate. Probably just a matter of style, like I said.
Let's just agree to disagree on this, it is pretty clear that we won't find common ground here.
I understand his administration has pulled the "National Security!" card out (too often? I dunno), but what does that have to do with the everyday news cycle broadly turning into "reality tv show" (i.e., "barely-real-crap-plus-spin!-for-ratings") in quality?
Because he has helped it turn into that, especially because he has squashed a great number of stories that are negative for the administration. He is part of the problem.
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Re: Obama's stunning display on press freedom

Post by Flagg »

Thanas, you are wrong here, dude.

This has been an issue for a looooong time. This has been an issue since before anyone knew who the fuck Obama was. The issue is news agencies both on TV (mostly on TV) and in print just being stenographers and reporting outright lies said by politicians and plenty of others without actually fact checking them. The problem lies completely with news organizations. All they have to do is spend 15 minutes making sure what Douchebag Politician said matches up with the facts and they have completely stopped doing that.

You're taking your unmitigated hatred for Obama, much if not all is justified, and letting it blind you to the fact that the messenger, not the message itself, is flawed. None of what Obama has done makes what he said untrue.
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Re: Obama's stunning display on press freedom

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Flagg wrote:You're taking your unmitigated hatred for Obama, much if not all is justified, and letting it blind you to the fact that the messenger, not the message itself, is flawed. None of what Obama has done makes what he said untrue.
It doesn't - which I have not claimed - it just means one of the main reasons why the press is unable to go after government malfeasance is complaining about them being unable to go after government malfeasance.
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Re: Obama's stunning display on press freedom

Post by Flagg »

Thanas wrote:
Flagg wrote:You're taking your unmitigated hatred for Obama, much if not all is justified, and letting it blind you to the fact that the messenger, not the message itself, is flawed. None of what Obama has done makes what he said untrue.
It doesn't - which I have not claimed - it just means one of the main reasons why the press is unable to go after government malfeasance is complaining about them being unable to go after government malfeasance.
But that's old hat and has been the case for decades. Obama basically said "the media needs to stop reporting/printing lies told by candidates/campaigns for POTUS without doing the basic work of fact checking and needs to start adding "however, the facts say... Right after the lie".

And it cuts both ways, because they should be doing the same with Obama, but they don't, and haven't, with him either, anymore than with the rest of them. The mainstream news media are essentially just stenographers and you have to hunt for the truth of things yourself, and it's been that way since before anyone knew who Obama was. If he's made the situation worse, then the news media has a responsibility to report on that, too, but they don't because waaa, that takes WORK!

Basically he's telling the media to stop being lazy cunts and do more than just reprint what is said by a candidate or a press release and fact check, and then print the facts in the article if they are counter to what was said.

So is Obama the worst messenger short of Dick Cheney? Hell yes. Is what he said 100% true? Hell FUCKING YES!
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Re: Obama's stunning display on press freedom

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Thanas wrote:
Khaat wrote:
I understand his administration has pulled the "National Security!" card out (too often? I dunno), but what does that have to do with the everyday news cycle broadly turning into "reality tv show" (i.e., "barely-real-crap-plus-spin!-for-ratings") in quality?
Because he has helped it turn into that, especially because he has squashed a great number of stories that are negative for the administration. He is part of the problem.
In precisely what way has Obama helped political news coverage (e.g. coverage of the Republican primaries) turn into garbage? In precisely what way has Obama discouraged major news media from engaging in basic fact-checking of statements made by candidates?

I understand that he has persecuted whistle-blowers, tried to quash stories that are prejudicial to his own administration, and so on. But could you please be more specific about how the things he has done have led to the press failing to do basic fact-checking of public statements by candidates for election? Is there a specific mechanism I am ignorant of, or is this supposed to be some sort of generic "Obama generates a 'weakened press' force field that subtly influences all members of the press to do their jobs weakly" thing?
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Who's worse? The honest imperialist or the dishonest one?
[/quote]A compelling argument, if the problem is that Obama and McCain were proposing the same things and would have done the same things.

As I recall, though, McCain never came out against drone strikes or the like.

He has spoken out against Guantanamo (unsurprising given his captivity and abuse at the hands of the North Vietnamese government)... but his record on the issue isn't much stronger than Obama's if at all, and he has shown no sign of being any more better a champion for the POWs at Guantanamo Bay than Obama has.

And I do recall McCain advocating war with Iran to put a stop to their nuclear program... whereas Obama is definitely trying to resolve that issue through peaceful negotiations. Negotiations which McCain's party has opposed quite vigorously.

If we are to say that both Obama and McCain are identical imperialists who use different rhetoric, I think we must label McCain just as dishonest as Obama is. In which case we don't have a choice between a liar and an honest man, we have a choice of which liar.

Alternatively, we must label Obama as a liar whose real intention is to do imperialist things XYZ, while McCain is an honest man whose real intention is to do imperialist things ABC. In which case XYZ and ABC must be compared on their own merits, and saying "Obama is a liar" is not the end of the conversation.

So while the cartoon (and you) make what is in form a very interesting argument, it does not necessarily apply to the facts of the situation we're talking about.
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Re: Obama's stunning display on press freedom

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McCain wanted to stay in Iraq and Afghanistan forever and "Bomb, Bomb, Bomb- Bomb, Bomb, Iran".

Obama wanted to get out of Iraq (done) and increase troops levels in Afghanistan (done), before withdrawing them in 2014 (liar, liar, pants on fire).

So:
McCain more honest? Maybe-likely.
Obama more honest? Possibly, he may have intended to withdraw troops from Afghanistan then situations changed, but since he just kept them there with no announcement made to the nation? I'm gonna say: LIE.

So which is better?
McCain: Still in Iraq, maybe no ISIS, no way to tell, but still, US Troops still fucking things up in Iraq. Still in Afghanistan, so that's a wash. Probable war with Iran...
Obama: Out of Iraq, definitely ISIS, but no US Troops there in or causing a crossfire. Still in Afghanistan. No war with Iran.

I'd say a war with Iran is worse whether ISIS forms or not.
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Re: Obama's stunning display on press freedom

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Simon_Jester wrote:I understand that he has persecuted whistle-blowers, tried to quash stories that are prejudicial to his own administration, and so on. But could you please be more specific about how the things he has done have led to the press failing to do basic fact-checking of public statements by candidates for election? Is there a specific mechanism I am ignorant of, or is this supposed to be some sort of generic "Obama generates a 'weakened press' force field that subtly influences all members of the press to do their jobs weakly" thing?
It is the climate. When the government destroys the avenues of FOI requests, lies to the press routinely without impunity and persecutes the sources of journalists, journalists are less inclined to do solid jobs, nor want to face the risk of questioning politicians for fear they will get persecuted. None of that is really new or unknown. There are nations where this is true to a depressing degree and nations where it is not 100% the Governments fault. But don't tell me Obama had nothing to do whatsoever with this by making journalists job harder overall.
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Re: Obama's stunning display on press freedom

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So you're saying that the reason politicians covering the presidential race don't do fact-checking is because they're afraid of being persecuted? Or am I not understanding?
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Re: Obama's stunning display on press freedom

Post by Flagg »

Thanas wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:I understand that he has persecuted whistle-blowers, tried to quash stories that are prejudicial to his own administration, and so on. But could you please be more specific about how the things he has done have led to the press failing to do basic fact-checking of public statements by candidates for election? Is there a specific mechanism I am ignorant of, or is this supposed to be some sort of generic "Obama generates a 'weakened press' force field that subtly influences all members of the press to do their jobs weakly" thing?
It is the climate. When the government destroys the avenues of FOI requests, lies to the press routinely without impunity and persecutes the sources of journalists, journalists are less inclined to do solid jobs, nor want to face the risk of questioning politicians for fear they will get persecuted. None of that is really new or unknown. There are nations where this is true to a depressing degree and nations where it is not 100% the Governments fault. But don't tell me Obama had nothing to do whatsoever with this by making journalists job harder overall.
Thanas: You don't seem to be catching what we're throwing. The US Media just doesn't fact-check, period. And it didn't start, nor has it gotten worse at a rate faster or more widespread under Obama than it did under Clinton and Bush.

The problem is access to "important people". They have become scared that if they fact check Hillary Clinton or Rafael Cruz, their embedded reporters will get fewer interviews, less access, and a worse seat on the bus and not get to ask questions when there are press conferences. So to avoid this, they will just print what any official, candidate, or whomever says, essentially a stenographer and not like, make sure what they said is true and print the facts contradicting them, or for that matter, confront them. And it's been the case for about 20 years and getting worse at a steady rate.

You are having a fit (I can tell, I'm the master) for no reason other than you hate Obama for his cuntitude, which is fair, but has no real bearing on this issue. Obama is not the best messenger, but what he's saying is true. I'm sure he engages in the access games (though it's usually the spokesmen who do it, likely with little to no Presidential input, but the buck stops where it stops) so he's a bad messenger and a giant drooling maggot infested open wound of a hypocrite.

But he is still telling it like it is, no matter how much his breath smells like fresh steer rectum.
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Re: Obama's stunning display on press freedom

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Simon_Jester wrote:So you're saying that the reason politicians covering the presidential race don't do fact-checking is because they're afraid of being persecuted? Or am I not understanding?
No, you are not understanding and I am not sure what I can write to enable you to understand. *Sigh* I'll try another simple analogy, maybe that will help.
A tax evader does not get to complain about the IRS not catching tax evaders.

Flagg wrote:Thanas: You don't seem to be catching what we're throwing. The US Media just doesn't fact-check, period. And it didn't start, nor has it gotten worse at a rate faster or more widespread under Obama than it did under Clinton and Bush.
You don't seem to get what I am saying. Obama is one of the main reasons why Journalism is in the state it is in right now, especially when it comes to political reporting. He normalized the Bush era practices. To have him stand there and lecture the press on not doing their job when he is one of the main reasons for them being bad at their job....
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Re: Obama's stunning display on press freedom

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American media were doing the things you describe back in 2000 and before; Bush didn't create this problem either.

Bush and Obama created other problems, but this isn't one of them. When it comes to the media not doing fact-checking of public statements, Obama is a beneficiary of a systemic problem that predates him. He hasn't made that particular problem much worse.

If your argument is that Obama's failure to run a transparent administration after taking office has somehow caused American election coverage to degenerate, I have to disagree with you. For one, the connection between "administration is not transparent" and "reporters don't even do basic fact-checking on opposition candidates before blindly repeating their words" is rather tenuous. For another, American election coverage was degenerate before Obama took office- before Obama was even on the political radar, to tell the truth.

If your argument is simply that Obama cannot criticize a system of which he is a beneficiary, this presents a serious problem. Virtually every major American politician, and probably most of the minor ones, benefit directly or indirectly from the American media's collective decision to become, as Flagg says, politicians' stenographers. Just as virtually every American politician benefits from campaign finance. Because the current system (of not checking lies and allowing corporations to bribe politicians) strengthens exactly those politicians who lie and take bribes.

Does that mean that no politician can say "the media really needs to start fact-checking" or "campaign finance needs to be reformed because it amounts to legalized bribery?"

If so, then your decision to forbid people from criticizing systems they have benefited from has serious consequences. Because you'd be forbidding anyone who actually has power from advocating for reforms to the system, which greatly reduces the chances of reform actually happening.

That's the sort of thing that happens when one is too busy focusing on hypocrisy to spare any attention for actually solving a problem.
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Re: Obama's stunning display on press freedom

Post by Flagg »

Thanas wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:So you're saying that the reason politicians covering the presidential race don't do fact-checking is because they're afraid of being persecuted? Or am I not understanding?
No, you are not understanding and I am not sure what I can write to enable you to understand. *Sigh* I'll try another simple analogy, maybe that will help.
A tax evader does not get to complain about the IRS not catching tax evaders.

Flagg wrote:Thanas: You don't seem to be catching what we're throwing. The US Media just doesn't fact-check, period. And it didn't start, nor has it gotten worse at a rate faster or more widespread under Obama than it did under Clinton and Bush.
You don't seem to get what I am saying. Obama is one of the main reasons why Journalism is in the state it is in right now, especially when it comes to political reporting. He normalized the Bush era practices. To have him stand there and lecture the press on not doing their job when he is one of the main reasons for them being bad at their job....
He's not one of the main reasons they are not doing their job. They weren't doing their job in 2002/2003. They weren't doing their job in 2000. They weren't doing their job during the Monica BlewClintsky affair. THEY HAVE NOT DONE THIER JOBS FOR DECADES AND ITS OUT OF LAZINESS AND GETTING RID OF INVESTIGATIVE JOURANISTS FOR COST-CUTTING MEASURES BECAUSE RATINGS HAVE BECOME KING. You can't blame Obama for the media not doing its job, since most of the reasons it's been a stenographer, rather than an institution seeking the truth, happened pre-Obama.

Remember when Al Gore said that he played a part in the creation of the Internet, which is 100% true, and the entire mainstream media called him a liar saying that he claimed "He invented the Internet"? Was that Obama's fault?

Remember when war criminal Condaleeza Rice claimed in 2002 that "We don't want the smoking gun (About Iraq having WMD, which tons of people who were on the ground in Iraq knew they did not and the media branded them liars, or in one guys case said Hussein had "paid him off" and it turned out he had been 100% accurate) to be in the form of a mushroom cloud" with no press pushback? Was that Obamas doing?

Remember when the invasion of Iraq started and future anchor of CBS Nightly News, Katie Couric did her crushing expose in the form of a single sentence...,"Navy SEALs rock!"? Well fuck you, Obama!

Again, you are letting the messenger get in the way of the message, which in just 3 cases off the top of my head, the messenger, aka Obams, was in Chicago doing community organizing or in the Illinoise state house!
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Re: Obama's stunning display on press freedom

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Simon_Jester wrote:If your argument is that Obama's failure to run a transparent administration after taking office has somehow caused American election coverage to degenerate, I have to disagree with you. For one, the connection between "administration is not transparent" and "reporters don't even do basic fact-checking on opposition candidates before blindly repeating their words" is rather tenuous. For another, American election coverage was degenerate before Obama took office- before Obama was even on the political radar, to tell the truth.
Very well, I'll take your word for it. Mainly because I only remember the Bush years in detail and not how it was under Clinton.
Does that mean that no politician can say "the media really needs to start fact-checking" or "campaign finance needs to be reformed because it amounts to legalized bribery?"
Not without being two-faced liars and massive hypocrites, no.
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Re: Obama's stunning display on press freedom

Post by Flagg »

Thanas wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Does that mean that no politician can say "the media really needs to start fact-checking" or "campaign finance needs to be reformed because it amounts to legalized bribery?"
Not without being two-faced liars and massive hypocrites, no.
We all agree here (I said as much in my first reply) as far as I know.

But just because the messenger is a slimy turd doesn't mean the message is false, especially since this has been a huge issue for people who think the news media isn't fulfilling their duties as the "5th estate" for a loooong time and about a decade before Obama became a national figure for his speech at the 2004 Democratic National Convention.
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Re: Obama's stunning display on press freedom

Post by Simon_Jester »

Thanas wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:If your argument is that Obama's failure to run a transparent administration after taking office has somehow caused American election coverage to degenerate, I have to disagree with you. For one, the connection between "administration is not transparent" and "reporters don't even do basic fact-checking on opposition candidates before blindly repeating their words" is rather tenuous. For another, American election coverage was degenerate before Obama took office- before Obama was even on the political radar, to tell the truth.
Very well, I'll take your word for it. Mainly because I only remember the Bush years in detail and not how it was under Clinton.
If election fact-checking was good during the Clinton years, Bush Junior would probably never have taken office. Even the 1994 'Republican Revolution' that ultimately led us on the path to the present disastrous state of affairs would have had to take a different form.

Remember that in 1980, Bush Senior challenged Reagan by calling his "cut taxes and economic growth will make it worth it" strategy 'voodoo economics.' By 1994, very few people were using words like that to describe the Republican congressional candidates who were claiming that they could cut taxes and it would shrink the national deficit. As a consequence, those Republicans were elected... and our national debt has been skyrocketing almost ever since, except for a couple of years in the late 1990s when we managed to run a surplus. Bush Junior locked things in with the Bush tax cuts, ensuring us a permanent structural deficit, but the problem predates even Bush.

And that problem is, in my honest opinion, caused in large part by the failure of the American media of the '90s to adequately challenge the Republicans on the factual accuracy and validity of the claims they'd made in the Contract on with America.

So no, this is not a new problem, Bush Junior did not create it, and Obama did not make the problem somehow permanent. He sure hasn't been helping, but in this case, fact-checking in American political journalism was dead well before he arrived on the scene. At most, he just kicked the corpse a few times.
Does that mean that no politician can say "the media really needs to start fact-checking" or "campaign finance needs to be reformed because it amounts to legalized bribery?"
Not without being two-faced liars and massive hypocrites, no.
These politicians were already liars and hypocrites. That's the entire problem- failure to hold candidates running for office accountable, and failure to police campaign finance, makes American elections a competition to see who can be the greatest liar and the worst hypocrite. The ones who win the race are almost invariably, to some degree, a liar and a hypocrite.

So it is incredibly self-defeating when we wail and rage about how they are liars and hypocrites when they are actually speaking out against the system that made them what they are.

If the poisonous fruit of a poisonous tree cries out "this tree is poisonous and should be cut down," is it really a good use of our energy to argue that the fruit is poisonous and should not be listened to?
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Re: Obama's stunning display on press freedom

Post by Thanas »

Substitute Obama for UN and you seem to agree with the principle of the argument. Point is, the President should be above the fray due to the high power the office has accumulated over the various presidencies.
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