SUV flees cops, takes out Navy fighter jet

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SUV flees cops, takes out Navy fighter jet

Post by Honorius »

Someone slipped.
How does an SUV fleeing the police get inside a U.S. Navy base and take out a $60 million top-of-the-line fighter jet?

That's the question officials at Naval Station Lemoore outside Fresno, California, are trying to figure out after a Jeep Grand Cherokee racing away from a California Highway Patrol traffic stop got 7 miles inside the Navy installation late Wednesday and crashed into the tail section of an F/A-18 Super Hornet.
Navy and California Highway Patrol officials said at a press conference Thursday that two people were in the Jeep -- a male driver and female passenger. Both died and their identifications were being withheld pending notification of next of kin, officials said.
The air station's commander, Capt. Monty Ashliman, said neither of the occupants of the Jeep had a military affiliation and it was not a targeted attack on the base.
A F-35C conducts a test flight over the Chesapeake Bay on February 11, 2011. Inspections of F-35 engines have been ordered after a runway fire at Eglin Air Force Base on June 23. The F-35 Lightning II has been beset by delays and cost overruns in the years since its introduction.

But an investigation was under way on how the vehicle got past armed security at one of the entry points to a base that's home to 15 F/A-18 squadrons, most of the Navy's fighter squadrons in the Pacific, and billions of dollars' worth of aircraft.
All homeland U.S. military bases have been under what the Pentagon calls Force Protection Condition Bravo, which is defined as an "increased and predictable threat of terrorism," since May 7, 2015, when the military was becoming increasingly wary of homegrown terror threats in the wake of incidents at the time. Bravo is the third-highest threat level on a five-tier scale the Defense Department uses.
Defense officials would not detail how the threat level changed affected security procedures at bases.
"Regardless of procedures we have in place, something went wrong and we had a tragic accident," Ashliman said. "We had some damage to an aircraft and we had two losses of life so we've got to figure out a way to prevent that from happening in the future."
Ashliman said all exit and entry points to the base were properly manned with base security personnel but did not say how the vehicle still managed to get past both them and barriers designed to prevent such entries.
"Anytime there's something like this, we'll certainly take a look at where we can get better. Whether that's a misstep that we had, whether it's assets that we need, or a different way of doing business, but we'll absolutely take serious this incident and figure out how we can get better and prevent it from happening tomorrow," Ashliman said.

The California Highway Patrol said the incident began when officers came across the vehicle as it was stopped along a roadway and they tried to check to see if there was any problem. The vehicle sped away as officers approached, initiating the chase, patrol Lt. Dave Knoff said.
The Jeep was pursued by both cruisers and a CHP helicopter, officials said. It was the helicopter that landed nearby when the vehicle hit the F/A-18 and officers found the female dead in the vehicle, officials said. The driver later died at a hospital.
Ashliman said the Navy could not yet give an estimate on the damages to the Super Hornet.
"There will be an intense investigation to be sure ... it is absolutely safe before it goes flying again," Ashliman said. He said the base lost no ability to function.
Okay...

At least no one else was injured or killed. But seriously isn't there at least a spike trap at base entrances the guards can trip which would have caused the vehicle to stop well short of the F-18?
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Re: SUV flees cops, takes out Navy fighter jet

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Honorius wrote:At least no one else was injured or killed. But seriously isn't there at least a spike trap at base entrances the guards can trip which would have caused the vehicle to stop well short of the F-18?
I'd imagine that the guys on duty at the gate were a little bit taken off-guard (pun intended), and also had to decide whether possibly getting the spikes up in time to stop the Jeep was worth definitely disabling the police land vehicles in hot pursuit and potentially letting the Jeep rampage through the base with no police effectively chasing it besides the helicopter. Which happened anyway, in this case, but I'm picturing two previously-bored guys in their late teens who've never had this happen before spraying their coffee here.

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Re: SUV flees cops, takes out Navy fighter jet

Post by Zaune »

Raw Shark wrote:I'd imagine that the guys on duty at the gate were a little bit taken off-guard (pun intended), and also had to decide whether possibly getting the spikes up in time to stop the Jeep was worth definitely disabling the police land vehicles in hot pursuit and potentially letting the Jeep rampage through the base with no police effectively chasing it besides the helicopter. Which happened anyway, in this case, but I'm picturing two previously-bored guys in their late teens who've never had this happen before spraying their coffee here.
That's why they have guns.

Seriously, how did this not lead to the gate sentries dumping a full magazine each into the driver's side windscreen? I'd have thought that was standard operating procedure for a potential suicide car-bombing.
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Re: SUV flees cops, takes out Navy fighter jet

Post by Napoleon the Clown »

Spike strips aren't magical Stop Cars Instantly Strips. They shred the fuck out of tires, that's it. A car can keep moving while riding on the rims, it's just a lot less stable.

As to why they didn't shoot the driver? Easily possible they didn't have weapons ready and by the time they could even try shooting the shot could no longer be effectively made. Glancing at the aerial view on Google Maps, it seems that it's not extreme levels of security. Maybe chainlink gates at most, which won't stop an SUV going at a good clip. Fuck it up, sure. But it'd keep going.
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Re: SUV flees cops, takes out Navy fighter jet

Post by The Romulan Republic »

This is embarrassing.

They are lucky it wasn't a suicide bomber.
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Re: SUV flees cops, takes out Navy fighter jet

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Its actually not expected that gate guards have a good chance of stopping vehicles entering a base at FPCON B (which I assume they are at). There are other postures where yes there would have been guys with machine guns there to instantly light the vehicle up but we are not in those. More sensitive locations have more routine high level security but a conventional air station is not one of those places.

You have to remember that these gates generally handle thousands (at some bases tens of thousands) or entrants a day and are there to project a presence and stop the lowest common denominator. For larger threats they serve as either a speed bump or more importantly someone to note something wrong happened and make sure everyone knows about it so an appropriate response can be marshaled.

Or in other words, Metal Gear lied to you.
Last edited by Patroklos on 2016-04-06 12:25am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SUV flees cops, takes out Navy fighter jet

Post by Highlord Laan »

The Romulan Republic wrote:This is embarrassing.

They are lucky it wasn't a suicide bomber.
Agreed on both counts. And you can bet your ass officers doing the security review are saying the same thing. And that even more senior officers are tearing off asses.
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Re: SUV flees cops, takes out Navy fighter jet

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Napoleon the Clown wrote:Spike strips aren't magical Stop Cars Instantly Strips. They shred the fuck out of tires, that's it. A car can keep moving while riding on the rims, it's just a lot less stable.

As to why they didn't shoot the driver? Easily possible they didn't have weapons ready and by the time they could even try shooting the shot could no longer be effectively made. Glancing at the aerial view on Google Maps, it seems that it's not extreme levels of security. Maybe chainlink gates at most, which won't stop an SUV going at a good clip. Fuck it up, sure. But it'd keep going.
Are there any particular reason why there is such fragile gate at base entrance? Especially considering cost of hardware stored at the base and possibility of suicide car bombing. Cars are not tanks, it doesn't take much to wreck one beyond driving ability. A heavy duty gate will take similar amount of time to open/close if designed properly and keep the base secure even if guards are not paying proper attention to vehicles approaching entrance.
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Re: SUV flees cops, takes out Navy fighter jet

Post by Napoleon the Clown »

It's a positively tiny base. There's only so much that could be accomplished by smashing through the gates. Trying to steal a jet would take more than enough time for the military presence to deal with you, and there's simply not enough hardware for it to be a good target. There are bigger bases that someone could target and do more damage with that aren't in the middle of nowhere. From what details are in the article above, I suspect that this is a simple case of an opportune chance to cause a bit of damage. Nothing about this base makes for a good target if you want to do a lot of damage or take a lot of lives.

So I'd say the most probable reason for such "soft" defenses is that they didn't see a reason to put in anything terribly hard to get through. Someone who has military service could probably give a better educated answer on the matter, this is just me speculating on why they didn't put too much effort into making it harder to force your way into.
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Re: SUV flees cops, takes out Navy fighter jet

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Napoleon the Clown wrote:It's a positively tiny base. There's only so much that could be accomplished by smashing through the gates. Trying to steal a jet would take more than enough time for the military presence to deal with you, and there's simply not enough hardware for it to be a good target. There are bigger bases that someone could target and do more damage with that aren't in the middle of nowhere. From what details are in the article above, I suspect that this is a simple case of an opportune chance to cause a bit of damage. Nothing about this base makes for a good target if you want to do a lot of damage or take a lot of lives.

So I'd say the most probable reason for such "soft" defenses is that they didn't see a reason to put in anything terribly hard to get through. Someone who has military service could probably give a better educated answer on the matter, this is just me speculating on why they didn't put too much effort into making it harder to force your way into.
I can't speak specifically about this base, but base defenses (like any defenses) are built around a threat model with multiple variables including but not limited to
1) What are we protecting? (mostly people? Data? Hardware?)
2) What sort of threats do we expect? (Random crazy guys with a truck? Visitors? Protesters? Infiltrators? Organized attack?
3) What are the attackers goal? (Damage/casualties? Stealing/kidnapping? Full takeover?)
Add to that the resource mix (the base might be understaffed/underfunded) and you have a large spectrum.

A base in the middle of the U.S. which is more worried about infiltration than a guy just ramming through the gate sounds very likely.
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Re: SUV flees cops, takes out Navy fighter jet

Post by Zwinmar »

Have you ever stood guard at a checkpoint that is able to actually stop a vehicle? Especially one in friendly territory were people come and go all hours of the day you cannot make it impenetrable never mind it is a major hassle all around with just the basics.
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Re: SUV flees cops, takes out Navy fighter jet

Post by Venator »

The article doesn't go into much detail of the chase and before they gatecrashed the base (and hence why they thought it was a good idea to ram a fighter jet...), another source;

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/car- ... e-38052705
Authorities say the chase began off the base late Wednesday, when a California Highway Patrol officer stopped to check on a Jeep Grand Cherokee parked on the roadside. The driver sped off, driving erratically and going the wrong way at one point on highway south of Fresno.

The CHP does not know why the SUV fled, Lt. Dave Knoff said.
If I had to hazard a guess based on that behaviour, it would be that they were hotboxing and/or getting frisky in the Jeep and then panicked when they saw the police. Given that the man and woman were from different cities and had different names it could have been an extramarital affair (it was a purple Jeep, after all...).
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Re: SUV flees cops, takes out Navy fighter jet

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Sky Captain wrote: Are there any particular reason why there is such fragile gate at base entrance?
Yeah, because the gate is only a gate in a chain link fence you could drive a car right through anyway. And if you want to talk about usefully upgrading perimeter security at all CONUS military bases then you better also want to spend billions and billions of dollars.
Especially considering cost of hardware stored at the base and possibility of suicide car bombing.
We should count ourselves lucky that the car bomb targeted a military base gate and not something far more vulnerable and utterly undefended in turn, or say a civilian airport where you have the same general chain link fence situation, but airliners full of people on the ramp. The threat does not remotely justify major changes in policy.
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Re: SUV flees cops, takes out Navy fighter jet

Post by Lord Revan »

I wouldn't surpriced if the guards and officers in that based are more conserned about boredom then car bombs. It's not like terrorist attacks are that common outside of few hotspots mostly in the middle east.
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Re: SUV flees cops, takes out Navy fighter jet

Post by Honorius »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Sky Captain wrote: Are there any particular reason why there is such fragile gate at base entrance?
Yeah, because the gate is only a gate in a chain link fence you could drive a car right through anyway. And if you want to talk about usefully upgrading perimeter security at all CONUS military bases then you better also want to spend billions and billions of dollars.
That would actually, if contracted to locals, might be a better spending of money, get the local economy a boost. Till someone bitches its an eyesore, yadda yadda. But just a couple hundred buck for a spike trap wold deter idiots like these or at least slow them down enough that the cops can nab them.
Especially considering cost of hardware stored at the base and possibility of suicide car bombing.
We should count ourselves lucky that the car bomb targeted a military base gate and not something far more vulnerable and utterly undefended in turn, or say a civilian airport where you have the same general chain link fence situation, but airliners full of people on the ramp. The threat does not remotely justify major changes in policy.
True. Though planes striking ducks is more likely, or the Flight Controllers fucking up big time.
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Re: SUV flees cops, takes out Navy fighter jet

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Honorius wrote: That would actually, if contracted to locals, might be a better spending of money, get the local economy a boost. Till someone bitches its an eyesore, yadda yadda. But just a couple hundred buck for a spike trap wold deter idiots like these or at least slow them down enough that the cops can nab them.
The only realistic barrier system would be and anti tank ditch and or berm on cost grounds. No useful economic boost will come from ditch digging. The other problem is such barriers would block lines of sight, making the bases more vulnerable to a far more likely threat which is 1-2 armed gunmen attempting to infiltrate. If you want more security hire more guards. As it is were using civilian guards everywhere that doesn't have nuclear weapons on cost grounds already. Guards at the only defense against random shooters, and useful to a point against all other threats. Civilian side fix fortifications are only useful in narrow circumstances, and I'd suggest the best place by far to spend such money is on fitting shatter resistant glass or fragment catching curtains to vulnerable buildings. the best thing to do of course is engineer the buildings from the get go to be more defensible, by keeping the parking lots at least 100ft from the walls, high curbs, and having minimal windows facing said lots as well as other various features. When you have a clean sheet this is all very cheap to design into the lot, but a non option for existing structures.

As for spike strips, why care? Some gates actually do have them, but while they'll stop a car some of the time the value against light trucks, let any any suicide terrorist whom simply bought a set of run flat tires is very low. This is also a reason why a gate to 'easily stop a car' is pointless even if we ignored the fence line, prepared terrorists will simply go rent a truck for even less money then they'd pay to buy a car and plow through anyway.

The US government is generally not interested in domestic fortifications that won't stop ~20-30 ton trucks at speed for this reason. Heavier vehicles would tend to be semi trailers and thus too unwieldy to approach at any speed given a defensive chicane. Thus not really a worse ramming threat. Such defenses are only found at the most vulnerable and obvious targets like the NSA HQ building or on Pennsylvania Avenue around the White House.
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Re: SUV flees cops, takes out Navy fighter jet

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I was thinking about this. Would concrete highway barriers be an adequate defence? I am envisioning laying out a dog-leg in the road that enters the base. It would slow down traffic is the main trouble there, but it might be enough to keep someone from simply driving straight through the gate and into the base as happened here. Granted the barriers could probably be knocked over, but if a vehicle hit it hard enough to knock it over, it's probably going to be a mess after that, unless it's one of those ridiculous jacked-up-by-6-ft pickup trucks...
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Re: SUV flees cops, takes out Navy fighter jet

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That's called a chicane, they are standard parts of anti vehicle roadblocks. You'll find them all over the Middle East and Donbas right now. They are however not reliable at all for actually stopping a major attack as barriers. That's a job for much larger obstructions, like these below in the Ukraine, or more elaborate combinations, such as using several jersey barriers to hold a berm of earth in place.

Image

These are actually chunks of breakwater removed from Mariupol harbor early in the war.

A normal jersey barrier though will easily fail under the impact of a truck, they are only intended to deflect trucks when struck at a sharp angle as one would hope happens on a highway. Anchoring is also a big pain in the ass, indeed for all heavy anti vehicle barriers its the foundation to anchor them that tends to be most of the cost, and this favors building continuous barriers via cast in place concrete walls or heavy cables on poles so that the load is spread over a wider area, reducing the foundation needs of any given point. The cable method isn't too favored anymore though because its far too easily breached, someone could 90% cut the cables at night with hand tools, then come back and ram the weakened spot the next morning.

Which goes back to the more guards issue. Any system could be easily breached if it isn't guarded actively until you reach the point of building a giant moat with steeply revetted embankments. That's kind of a tough one. Carving a rock hill into a mesa like shape would also work... As it is if you talk about real terrorists you have to assume that if they can make one vehicle bomb they can make two, which means the first bomb will blowup any defensive barrier you have unless it is completely massive, leaving the second to attack the target. Such attacks are not paper, they have happened many times in the Mid east. Which means you need a defense in depth and the costs and manning skyrocket quickly.
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Re: SUV flees cops, takes out Navy fighter jet

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Yeah, I was figuring that a chicane might be sufficient to stop your average civilian SUV though. Obviously it wouldn't be much good for a 'major attack', but a.) those aren't hugely likely and b.) it's cheap.

Digging a ditch also strikes me as a fairly cheap measure. Rent a few earth-movers for a week, lay some concrete reinforcements in place, spray some grass seed to reduce erosion, if it's deep enough it'll wreck pretty much any car that barrels into it headlong.

But really it's a situation of risk assessment and economics when it comes down to it. The majority of military bases are not going to NEED serious protection, and occurrences like this are basically freak one-off's. You want to turn *every* base into a fortress, it's going to cost a lot of money that you don't have or could be put to better use.
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Re: SUV flees cops, takes out Navy fighter jet

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It'd be more like a couple hundred for a couple years, machine wise. Then that 'lay some concrete reinforcement in place' bit is how this turns into billions and billions of dollars when you need hundreds of miles of it and have no control over the existing ground conditions. Actually it might turn into thousands of miles, even if we plan on not fortifying base areas like open training fields no troops are barracked in normally. The US still has IIRC around 500 military bases in CONUS.

In some places you could do other things, such as cutting away slopes to make steeper embankments, and incorporate other existing barriers like waterways, its still very expensive and will run afoul other land use, such as where fence lines are directly against public roads as was the case in the above incident. Even issues like the water in the ditches breeding insects become problems when you do this on a large scale for an indefinite time frame, and force you to do things like get EPA approval for every inch of construction. Also so many military bases are so heavily contaminated with toxic materials you may find you need a hazmat landfill for large amounts of the spoil!




Now since it was super easy to find see textbook version of the double bomb threat here; suicide bombing attack on the Palestine Hotel in Baghdad in 2005.
https://youtu.be/-OyPdktZHSQ?t=120

While taking place in a war zone the vehicles and explosive yields involved are nothing that could not be encountered in North America or Europe, indeed the Oklahoma City bomb was bigger then what the cement mixer carried. All it would take is two people in principle.

The first explosive is clearly only intended to breach the hefty but insufficient single concrete wall around the hotel, the cement mixer penetrates and then became stuck for unknown reasons and exploded when a machine gun opened fire on it. After this attack the US began building much bigger concrete T walls and giving them outer reinforcements of jersey barriers and other lower defenses to keep bombs from easily exploding in contact with the main wall. Such defenses were still breached in later attacks and just got thicker and thicker...

Frankly the only really satisfactory defenses against suicide vehicle attacks are main battle tanks with shoot first rules of engagement, and methods to simply prevent people from getting really large amounts of explosive materials easily.
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Re: SUV flees cops, takes out Navy fighter jet

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The simple fact is a CONUS base is a garrison, not a fortress. Most gates are designed to be able to be fortified during FPCON C/D with actual barriers (chicane as pointed out or retractable gates and pylons) but for obvious reasons that degrades the mission of base tenant commands so is only in place during heightened threat environments. Again, tens of thousands of people transit to and from work every day on some bases not to mention the actual work and logistics traffic of the commands themselves. They can't function as fortresses.

This is the gate to Norfolk Naval Station that I went through every day for many years up until a year ago, the worlds largest military base:

Image

Its one of a half dozen main entry points. As you can see its not designed and operated to be able to stop forced entry with any confidence. I can drive right up to the guard as easy as a McDonalds cashier where I can give him my ID to gain access or gun it straight past him. Maybe the guard gets a shot off, but probably not, and if he does he probably doesn't stop me anyway. The gate is primarily there to vet credentials for normal entry. Thousands of vehicles use it a day and during morning rush hour it could take me an hour of traffic to get through this. If you really wanted to cause casualties, military ones, you are far better off attacking the traffic jam this minimally intrusive security gate creates (which is not lost on the Navy, btw).

They do reduce the number of open gates throughout the day based on traffic patterns and put jersey barriers across the entry when they do. You might notbe able to see it but when that black gate is closed during disuse there is steel rope threaded into it which can stop a large truck in its tracks at speed. There are also radioactive detectors that can be activated but I have never seen them do so. I doubt they work actually.
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Re: SUV flees cops, takes out Navy fighter jet

Post by Zaune »

Maybe the easiest solution is to just have someone standing by with a shotgun ready to shoot out the tyres if a vehicle fails to stop or suddenly floors it.
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Re: SUV flees cops, takes out Navy fighter jet

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At moving-vehicle speeds they are likely to only get one shot, and they'd have to be carrying a loaded shotgun around all the time. Arguably, the risk to life and limb from accidental discharges plus the cost of paying the guards, doesn't justify the possibility of stopping an intruder.
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Re: SUV flees cops, takes out Navy fighter jet

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Patroklos wrote:The simple fact is a CONUS base is a garrison, not a fortress. Most gates are designed to be able to be fortified during FPCON C/D with actual barriers (chicane as pointed out or retractable gates and pylons) but for obvious reasons that degrades the mission of base tenant commands so is only in place during heightened threat environments. Again, tens of thousands of people transit to and from work every day on some bases not to mention the actual work and logistics traffic of the commands themselves. They can't function as fortresses.
Most bases I've been on now have retractable pylons or similar in the roadway, about a hundred yards down the road. If a gate guard is reasonably on their toes, they can manage to activate it after a car runs the gate. But sometimes they're broke.
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Re: SUV flees cops, takes out Navy fighter jet

Post by Omega18 »

Sea Skimmer wrote: Such attacks are not paper, they have happened many times in the Mid east. Which means you need a defense in depth and the costs and manning skyrocket quickly.
For the record defense in depth is actually a thing regarding some high profile targets at certain US naval bases at least. For instance the New London Naval Base has a gate, (with the retractable blocker past the gate a bit) to enter the "upper base" but also a second manner gate with the same protections some distance away at "lower base." Even if the vehicle manages to run right through the upper base gate, there is some distance to drive to reach a second gate with basically the same setup which certainly should have its retractable barrier up by then plus possible additional armed backup. An attacker can only reach the subs after going through both gates plus they are going to run into additional armed security of at least some sort where the actual subs are.
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