Muhammad Ali dead at 74

[Crown]

Later in life he seems to have reconsidered - he had both a Jewish and a white Christian son-in-law and apparently by that time it was a non-issue.

That's comforting to learn, I always assumed that it was just one of 'those things' that got swept under the rug as time went on.

[Elheru Aran]

Later in life he seems to have reconsidered - he had both a Jewish and a white Christian son-in-law and apparently by that time it was a non-issue.

That's comforting to learn, I always assumed that it was just one of 'those things' that got swept under the rug as time went on.

I would not be surprised that if he had any initial problem with it, it got swept under the rug and kept 'in the family'. Celebrities back then weren't in the public eye *quite* as much as they are now, and 'family life' was more or less off-limits. And of course given an extended relationship with his sons-in-law would have resulted from the marriage, he would've come to know them, and if he was a reasonable guy (and by all indications he was pretty intelligent) he would've figured out they could get along.

[Elfdart]

The thing the always stuck in my mind was when he refused to fight in Viet Nam. No one could deny he was a fighter and a brave man, but he refused to go to war for moral and ethical reasons regardless of the cost to himself. No one could force him to do what he considered wrong and immoral. Coming at the time it did caused a lot of people to question the rightness of that war. That's what I mean by integrity. At the time to a lot of people he was a big, scary, violent black man (or worse) but his stance, his willingness to risk jail and give up his career, was when even his enemies began to respect him, and that was a long time ago when he was a young man. He was not a perfect man but he was a deeply ethical man.

I always thought it was funny when right-wingers tried to paint him as a coward. The easiest thing he could have done was to duck the draft in the more socially acceptable ways, or actually serve -the Army kept celebrity draftees in REMF positions and gave them special treatment. Muhammad Ali wouldn't have it.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

In fact, there was a clip of him criticizing the white boys for running away to Canada or Switzerland(his words), instead of being willing to risk losing everything by making a stand against the war there and then. Of course, today, he'd have been criticized as an entitled SJW.

And, Crown, Broom said what I was going to, but I will add this: He had the decency to admit when he was wrong, in deed, if not in word. J.B. Stoner, on the other hand(and to use an example), went to his grave an unrepentant racist.

[Crown]

Later in life he seems to have reconsidered - he had both a Jewish and a white Christian son-in-law and apparently by that time it was a non-issue.

That's comforting to learn, I always assumed that it was just one of 'those things' that got swept under the rug as time went on.

I would not be surprised that if he had any initial problem with it, it got swept under the rug and kept 'in the family'. Celebrities back then weren't in the public eye *quite* as much as they are now, and 'family life' was more or less off-limits. And of course given an extended relationship with his sons-in-law would have resulted from the marriage, he would've come to know them, and if he was a reasonable guy (and by all indications he was pretty intelligent) he would've figured out they could get along.

Look I don't want to go too deep into it, because if Broomstick is telling me that he reconsidered it later in life I'll take it at face value, but for context he wasn't shy about those beliefs. He was a keynote speaker at a KKK rally for crying out loud! There are multiple interviews where he would go on about it. This isn't Hulk Hogan getting secretly recorded saying these things type of scenario, he was almost proselytising this stuff.

[Broomstick]

Look I don't want to go too deep into it, because if Broomstick is telling me that he reconsidered it later in life I'll take it at face value, but for context he wasn't shy about those beliefs. He was a keynote speaker at a KKK rally for crying out loud! There are multiple interviews where he would go on about it. This isn't Hulk Hogan getting secretly recorded saying these things type of scenario, he was almost proselytising this stuff.

Muhammad Ali grew up in an environment where, due solely to the color of his skin, was barred from using the same drinking fountains, restaurants, schools, hotels, toilets, and many other places and institutions as many other people around him. He probably had to leave the sidewalk and walk in the street whenever white people passed or risk being physically knocked into the street. When he was growing up, young black men risked death for paying attention to white women in any way that might give offense to white men. Meanwhile, white men could do whatever the hell they wanted to black women, from harassment to rape to murder, and would almost always get away with it.

Of course he had racist attitudes - you'd have to be a fucking saint to avoid such feelings in that environment. Black people advocating for segregation and separatism were common in the south in the 1960's, just as were whites advocating the same. The whites wanted to maintain "purity". The blacks with that attitude felt they wouldn't get a fair shake in an integrated society full of racists and looked to become self-sufficient and self-supporting. That goes back to Marcus Garvey and even back to the founding of the "historically black colleges" just after the Civil War. It wasn't entirely an irrational position to take under the circumstances. Also, given the horrible way black people were treated of course there was anger and resentment. That's what gave rise to the Black Panthers and Nation of Islam and a bunch of others.

Ali becoming a celebrity and traveling, though, really did broaden his horizons. Just as it did for Malcolm X who was, if anything, much more of a racist than Ali ever was. Both men came to the realization that what they had been taught about white people was an incorrect as what white people had been taught about them. Malcolm X wrote about his change of thought, but was killed before he could act much on it. Ali actually had time to undergo a change in beliefs and attitude.

Yes, Ali was associated with the KKK - in 1975. Do we focus on that, or do we consider his actions in the ensuing 40 years? One drawback to the internet is how the past can haunt a person long after time has changed them. The people who have known Ali during those years have described him time and again as someone who was generous and genuinely nice to people, who spoke out against intolerance, and who fully accepted his non-black in-laws and mixed-race grandchildren.

I don't have an issue with Ali's views on race. His views were far from atypical in the 1960's, and like a lot of people since then his opinions changed.

[Flagg]

The thing the always stuck in my mind was when he refused to fight in Viet Nam. No one could deny he was a fighter and a brave man, but he refused to go to war for moral and ethical reasons regardless of the cost to himself. No one could force him to do what he considered wrong and immoral. Coming at the time it did caused a lot of people to question the rightness of that war. That's what I mean by integrity. At the time to a lot of people he was a big, scary, violent black man (or worse) but his stance, his willingness to risk jail and give up his career, was when even his enemies began to respect him, and that was a long time ago when he was a young man. He was not a perfect man but he was a deeply ethical man.

Another quality missing from many professional athletes today. And, their fans. Had Ali come up during the 2000s, where an overpaid shortstop cheating just to be mediocre, and fans finding nothing wrong with that, he would've been derided in a thousand cynical videos posted by a thousand smarmy asshole YouTubers. And in the comments sections of said vids.

And it would be hard to blame them, considering. I've been burned so often I just figure they are juicing.

[Flagg]

The thing the always stuck in my mind was when he refused to fight in Viet Nam. No one could deny he was a fighter and a brave man, but he refused to go to war for moral and ethical reasons regardless of the cost to himself. No one could force him to do what he considered wrong and immoral. Coming at the time it did caused a lot of people to question the rightness of that war. That's what I mean by integrity. At the time to a lot of people he was a big, scary, violent black man (or worse) but his stance, his willingness to risk jail and give up his career, was when even his enemies began to respect him, and that was a long time ago when he was a young man. He was not a perfect man but he was a deeply ethical man.

Another quality missing from many professional athletes today. And, their fans. Had Ali come up during the 2000s, where an overpaid shortstop cheating just to be mediocre, and fans finding nothing wrong with that, he would've been derided in a thousand cynical videos posted by a thousand smarmy asshole YouTubers. And in the comments sections of said vids.

How would his views on interracial marriage being against the will of God been greeted by these YouTubers?

EDIT :: I don't know if he ever recanted his obvious racism, and I don't begrudge him to have negative opinions about whites during that era. I think his treatment of Frazier was scandalous and shameful - which to his credit he did recant and I certainly won't begrudge Ali's talent. It was mesmerising.

Doesn't shock me, but I was talking athletic prowess, I hope I made that clear. I'm sure over the years he had many abhorrent views given the age he grew up in.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

And it would be hard to blame them, considering. I've been burned so often I just figure they are juicing.

Sigh...I know. Goes to show the times, they are a'changin'. And not for the better.

[ArmorPierce]

Jordan was a gifted athlete, certainly, though he did get full of himself for a bit. I do resent how his critics tried to use his dad's death in a pathetic attempt to get back at him.

You don't think Muhammad Ali got full of himself?

[Simon_Jester]

One drawback to the internet is how the past can haunt a person long after time has changed them.

And, as here, long after a large fraction of the population has simply forgotten the historical context.

It's hard for many people today to really understand the full impact of Jim Crow on the racial attitudes of African-Americans, or of '50s level sexism on women and the way they learned to behave... And so it's easy to misinterpret behaviors and ideas that arose in that context.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

Jordan was a gifted athlete, certainly, though he did get full of himself for a bit. I do resent how his critics tried to use his dad's death in a pathetic attempt to get back at him.

You don't think Muhammad Ali got full of himself?

Every professional athlete gets full of themselves at one time or another. A few, such as Ali and Jordan, get over themselves, and move on.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Muhammad Ali grew up in an environment where, due solely to the color of his skin, was barred from using the same drinking fountains, restaurants, schools, hotels, toilets, and many other places and institutions as many other people around him. He probably had to leave the sidewalk and walk in the street whenever white people passed or risk being physically knocked into the street. When he was growing up, young black men risked death for paying attention to white women in any way that might give offense to white men. Meanwhile, white men could do whatever the hell they wanted to black women, from harassment to rape to murder, and would almost always get away with it.

Of course he had racist attitudes - you'd have to be a fucking saint to avoid such feelings in that environment. Black people advocating for segregation and separatism were common in the south in the 1960's, just as were whites advocating the same. The whites wanted to maintain "purity". The blacks with that attitude felt they wouldn't get a fair shake in an integrated society full of racists and looked to become self-sufficient and self-supporting. That goes back to Marcus Garvey and even back to the founding of the "historically black colleges" just after the Civil War. It wasn't entirely an irrational position to take under the circumstances. Also, given the horrible way black people were treated of course there was anger and resentment. That's what gave rise to the Black Panthers and Nation of Islam and a bunch of others.

Ali becoming a celebrity and traveling, though, really did broaden his horizons. Just as it did for Malcolm X who was, if anything, much more of a racist than Ali ever was. Both men came to the realization that what they had been taught about white people was an incorrect as what white people had been taught about them. Malcolm X wrote about his change of thought, but was killed before he could act much on it. Ali actually had time to undergo a change in beliefs and attitude.

Yes, Ali was associated with the KKK - in 1975. Do we focus on that, or do we consider his actions in the ensuing 40 years? One drawback to the internet is how the past can haunt a person long after time has changed them. The people who have known Ali during those years have described him time and again as someone who was generous and genuinely nice to people, who spoke out against intolerance, and who fully accepted his non-black in-laws and mixed-race grandchildren.

I don't have an issue with Ali's views on race. His views were far from atypical in the 1960's, and like a lot of people since then his opinions changed.

This is an excellent recap on Ali's views on race in the 60's and how they have changed. So many people forget what was happening back then, and how a person's views in that era would seem strange to us today, even if they were at the forefront of progress in their own time. Even today, people forget (ignore?) that black people being racist does not have the same impact as white racism. If a black person holds extreme racial views, it is unlikely to result in bodily or economic harm to any white person. Even if said black person is a hiring manager that denies a well-deserved job to a white person based solely on race, a qualified white candidate will most likely be able to find work elsewhere. The same cannot be said for a qualified black person who might face pervasive racism and be denied job after job simply because his name is Tyrone rather than Jim. Even after racism is abolished from the minds of all citizens, it will take 100+ years for the resulting economic disparities to resolve themselves, during which time our heuristic pattern-forming human brains will continue to associate black people and minorities in general with poverty and lack of achievement, thus perpetuating the cycle for generations even if humanity is cured of racist ideology tomorrow. We achieved great things in the 60's thanks to people like Muhammad Ali, but we have so much farther to go before we achieve true racial equality and understanding that I can't even confidently say that our grandchildren will know a world of true racial equality. I can only extrapolate to say that things will be better, and hope that's enough.

[Flagg]

That's why I tend to hold African American's who lived during that age to a different standard and went out of my way to treat them with more respect than average when I worked as a security guard. Call it affirmative action through kindness, I dunno. I just cannot imagine being a kid, or of any age really, and being told I had to use different facilities so I didn't inflict them with my precense, yet I was supposed to wait on them hand and foot otherwise.

[Broomstick]

Here is an illustration of American Apartheid:


This image is from the famous "I Have A Dream Speech" by Martin Luther King, Jr. in 1963. This is a mixed race crowd, so it wasn't apartheid in the sense of a white seating section and a black seating section, but there is an invisible but real difference there. Those people were out there for an extended period of time. Any white person who needed to take a piss during that day had ample facilities at all the public monuments, museums, and so forth around the Mall. The black people? Not allowed at those facilities. They had to travel to a "colored" facility to use a toilet, and for damn sure those didn't exist in the upscale tourist areas - it was outlying businesses or hotels that catered to black people, certainly not in the downtown DC area.

There were young kids in that crowd. Imagine trying to explain to, say, an 8 year old why he or she couldn't use the same toilet as that other 8 year old a few feet away. Imagine being the parent of that 8 year old, having to pass perfectly fine toilets on the way to one which you and your child were allowed to use, hoping the kid didn't piss or shit their pants on the way. Think of the message that sends to a child, that he or she has to hold it (or piss their pants if they can't) but other people are allowed at much closer toilets.

Now, think about that really hard, then go back and listen to that speech and it takes on a whole different depth and meaning. MLK, Jr. was talking about judging people by their character and not their skin color and equality of opportunity when a high percentage of that audience weren't even allowed to use the nearest goddamned toilet. People born after that era just can not have the same gut-level reaction as people did back then, and really, that inability is a good thing because it's due to real progress. We aren't done yet, there are still grave injustices, but we have come a long way already.

I run into 20-somethings all the time who are in despair at this or that bad thing. And they are correct, there ARE lots of bad things in this world. But I remember a different world, and bad things that no longer exist or are greatly diminished, which is why I was a much more optimistic person at 50 than at 20.

[Flagg]

Well, I was lucky enough to be born in 81 so I didn't have to see the nastiest shit. I still saw plenty, growing up in FL, though.

[Broomstick]

Yeah. I'm old enough to remember the last half of the 1960's at least somewhat. Believe me, a lot of people look back at those times through rose-colored glasses. They were... interesting times.

[Flagg]

Yeah. I'm old enough to remember the last half of the 1960's at least somewhat. Believe me, a lot of people look back at those times through rose-colored glasses. They were... interesting times.

Yeah. Well I remember if my mostly white group of friends had a black addition while walking around the mall, we'd have a police escort, and if our African American friend wasn't with us, we weren't even tailed by rent-a-cops. And this was the 90's. So it wasn't bashing heads, but still uncomfortably palpable. I also had a 4th grade prteacher who called the black boys in class "her lil' Sambo's".

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

It didn't seem like it at the time, but looking back the 90's were a lot worse than today in terms of racism. I used to hear people make openly bigoted statements all the time, now it's mainly my stepdad

[SAMAS]

Yeah. I'm old enough to remember the last half of the 1960's at least somewhat. Believe me, a lot of people look back at those times through rose-colored glasses. They were... interesting times.

In the "Ancient Chinese Curse" sense?

[Broomstick]

Absolutely.

For all the good things that happened and positive changes made there were horrible things to match.

[Flagg]

It didn't seem like it at the time, but looking back the 90's were a lot worse than today in terms of racism. I used to hear people make openly bigoted statements all the time, now it's mainly my stepdad

Yeah, now has its problems, but people get mad at most of the the killed by cops for no reason black people, while in the '90's it took plungers up the ass and 42 bullets in a man showing his ID.