UK Brexit team will not include people from Scotland, Ireland or Wales

[Simon_Jester]

In the context of the Brexit referendum, I'm talking more about the tactical decisions made by the parties.

The Conservatives' decision to set up a referendum when and as they did, to campaign in the manner they did, their decision to include into their ranks more and more active critics of the EU... This has made the relative position of the xenophobic wing of British politics stronger than it 'has' to be. We heard enough commentary from British citizens on this forum to give reason to think that this is an issue.

[Zaune]

Of course, the scary part is that a lot of British people are probably happy about this. I've seen a side to this country that I didn't want to believe existed in the last few months.

[The Romulan Republic]

As an American watching the poisoning of our democracy for the last year and half, I can definitely sympathize.

[Simon_Jester]

Of course, the scary part is that a lot of British people are probably happy about this. I've seen a side to this country that I didn't want to believe existed in the last few months.

England (especially) has always had a sort of latent cultural xenophobic streak. It never sat very well with their status as a trading hub and the metropolis of a broad empire, so it became rather submerged since the Victorian era, but it was there and people have been commenting on it for centuries.

Also, the people you're commenting on are the same people I've been talking about; I'd actually take it as a favor if you, who are British, could say more about them. Since we've got something of an impasse here about the role xenophobia played in the referendum.

[His Divine Shadow]

There does seem to be a pattern here with leftist leaning people to proclaim that stuff like this, Brexit and Trump to name the two biggest, is just racism and downplaying everything else. But it's really an economic issue, that in turn affected (turbo boosted) the other. I mean if the economy was good for the working class, I am pretty sure a lot might grumble about immigrants, but they wouldn't give two fucks beyond that.

But now things are bad and have been bad for a long time and you get populism when the masses are angry and looking for someone to blame. Too bad they keep missing the target.

[Darth Nostril]

That's down to the Tories and their fucking idiotic austerity measures, not on the EU that pumped hundreds of millions of pounds into local economies.

[NecronLord]

That's kind of what he was saying.

As an inhabitant of a deprived area of the UK I'm well aware of the importance of EU spending on development areas. Sadly, not everyone who lives here is.

[The Romulan Republic]

That's down to the Tories and their fucking idiotic austerity measures, not on the EU that pumped hundreds of millions of pounds into local economies.

Yeah. That's Right wing politics. Fuck over the economy, then blame everyone else.

One almost wonders if they deliberately sabotage the economy so that its easier to push their poisonous social bull shit.

And I would say things like Brexit, and Trump, are both a result of economics and bigotry, but that people choosing, of all the possible responses to economic suffering, to pursue xenophobic "answers" is pretty much pure bigotry. I mean, they could respond by voting for a Sanders-style progressive if they wanted to, or some other answer altogether. Economic hardship does not entirely absolve people of their bad choices, or the consequences of them.

[NecronLord]

One almost wonders if they deliberately sabotage the economy so that its easier to push their poisonous social bull shit.

The economy has a different meaning for right and left wingers.

For the left wing, economic success is generally considered the elimination of poverty and availability of goods to the population.

For the right, it's generally governed by such things as economic growth and GDP.

Right wing parties generally cater to business interests that seek to eliminate things like healthcare costs to business, the dangers of unions, employment protection, and so on. You know this of course.

This is however, in the fantasy-world of dragons and rational self interest; they're also driven by nationalist agendas, particularly in the case of Brexit; they're not necessarily thinking with their economy caps on - even the most fuck-the-poor tories would have to, if looking at it in an unbiased way, take heed of warnings like those from the LSE.

The Delusion in England that we still live in the age of "The Empire too. We can depend on you. Freedom remains. These are the chains. Nothing can break." is strong. Before Brexit many right wing voters of my acquaintance were genuinely convinced that nations like India, Canada, Australia were literally chomping at the bit to replace the EU and provide just the same economic benefits, somehow. Expert opinion wasn't really considered or sought by most for that; they genuinely think that only the malaise of red tape and regulation and immigrants with their odd ways and people not loving the queen enough, prevents Brit- England being a globe-spanning superpower, and that somehow, nations like India miss being under British rule.

Deep down people believe that by following the morally pure route they would be rewarded for it - the same as most of us think at times.

"Of course we can go it alone, we did it in world war two."

National mythology is a bitch.

And I would say things like Brexit, and Trump, are both a result of economics and bigotry, but that people choosing, of all the possible responses to economic suffering, to pursue xenophobic "answers" is pretty much pure bigotry. I mean, they could respond by voting for a Sanders-style progressive if they wanted to, or some other answer altogether. Economic hardship does not entirely absolve people of their bad choices, or the consequences of them.

The fact is that the media is largely run for profit, and thus owned by people who want to make profit, therefore people that want to eliminate things like healthcare costs to business, the dangers of unions, employment protection, and so on. Some media defies this trend, but a lot of accessible, lowest common denominator output guides people away from the painful truth that they need to pay taxes to get things, and that they will suffer if they don't do so, and toward things like Trumped Up Trickle Down ideas of how they will benefit from tory rule.

You can fool some of the people all of the time - and you can fool the majority of the people most of the time too.

[mr friendly guy]

Second what Necronlord says.

I saw that Brexit video and found it pretty amusing. The dreams of Empire was strong there.

Again I wonder why Brexiters think Australia would jump on the bandwagon when the UK screwed us over first by directing trade to Europe, forcing us to find new trading partners, ie the US and Japan and now the PRC. I am sure we don't mind if the UK starts buying our iron ore like China did... wait a minute, China produced more steel in one year than the entire US did on a war economy in WWII. They needed lots of iron ore from us and prices were quite favourable to us back when there was imbalance of supply and demand. Is the UK steel producers going to do the same? Yeah right.

Another thing about the Brexiters which is too funny not to share is this joke I posted on a channel which was very anti SJW and pro Brexit.

A SJW and a Brexiter walk into a bar. After a few drinks too many the SJW complains about being oppressed by the white man. The Brexiter says "What all of them?" and the SJW reiterates the claim. The Brexiter tells the SJW "Don't be silly, the only white men oppressing us are the ones running the European commission."

Seriously. Listen to the persecution complex some of the Brexiters have. I can understand not wanting the EU, but saying they are oppressing you takes the cake. They literally have no self awareness when they mock SJWs for doing the same thing.

[Tribble]

Of course, the scary part is that a lot of British people are probably happy about this. I've seen a side to this country that I didn't want to believe existed in the last few months.

England (especially) has always had a sort of latent cultural xenophobic streak. It never sat very well with their status as a trading hub and the metropolis of a broad empire, so it became rather submerged since the Victorian era, but it was there and people have been commenting on it for centuries.

Also, the people you're commenting on are the same people I've been talking about; I'd actually take it as a favor if you, who are British, could say more about them. Since we've got something of an impasse here about the role xenophobia played in the referendum.

Just to be clear, I've never disputed that xenophobia and far-right politics played a role, I've been asking whether or not leaving the EU is in and of itself a xenophobic, far right line of thinking. We've sort of been talking over each other.

I'm also wondering to what degree did xenophobia played a role. I acknowledge that xenophobia did play a role, but I like to know as best as possible the specifics. What evidence is available to suggest the number of people who voted to leave the EU specifically because they were xenophobic? Has there been any studies done to figure that out?

[Tribble]

Sorry, timer ran out for an edit.

As an example, let's say you have two groups of people who voted the leave the EU due to immigration:

One group voted to leave the EU on immigration because they believe that the UK should have the final say on immigration.

The 2nd group voted to leave the EU on immigration because they believe that the UK should have the final say on immigration, and they want the UK to use that power specifically for the purpose of limiting immigration and excluding Poles, Muslims etc.

IMO the first group is not xenophobic and far-right wing simply because they want the UK to have the final say, and it's obvious that the 2nd group is xenophobic due to the motivations behind their vote.

Have there been studies done or evidence available which would be able to differentiate between the two groups? Is there any way to determine the number of people who were in each group?

If it cannot be determined as to who belongs in each group would it be fair to paint all them with the same brush?

Also, if you belonged to the first group, should you have voted to Remain simply because of the existence of the 2nd group?

[Crazedwraith]

Not actually related beyond being Brexity (can we just get a Brexit megathread rather than a new one every week?)

A Tory Councillor has started a petition to make it Treason not to support Brexit

I do love this tweet Yahoo news showed as a reponse though. "The Brexit treason petition is disturbingly authoritarian but it also has the political weight of a YouTube comment." And the dude got smacked down by the (also tory) leader of his council.

[Tribble]

(can we just get a Brexit megathread rather than a new one every week?)

Seconded.

[Vendetta]

They needed lots of iron ore from us and prices were quite favourable to us back when there was imbalance of supply and demand. Is the UK steel producers going to do the same? Yeah right.

Well they're going to be owned by the Chinese so......

[mr friendly guy]

They needed lots of iron ore from us and prices were quite favourable to us back when there was imbalance of supply and demand. Is the UK steel producers going to do the same? Yeah right.

Well they're going to be owned by the Chinese so......

Oh? That's new to me.

[Vendetta]

They needed lots of iron ore from us and prices were quite favourable to us back when there was imbalance of supply and demand. Is the UK steel producers going to do the same? Yeah right.

Well they're going to be owned by the Chinese so......

Oh? That's new to me.

Current owners of the UK steel industry (Tata group) are largely selling up. Hebei Iron & Steel are likely to end up with some of it.