Allied wargraves/warship wrecks stolen in Indoneshia

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Allied wargraves/warship wrecks stolen in Indoneshia

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Mystery over Dutch WW2 shipwrecks vanished from Java Sea bed
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-37997640

Three Dutch World War Two ships considered war graves have vanished from the bottom of the Java Sea, the Dutch defence ministry says.

All three were sunk by the Japanese during the Battle of the Java Sea in 1942, and their wrecks were discovered by divers in 2002.

A report in the Guardian says three British ships have disappeared as well.

The British government says it is "distressed" by the reports and is investigating.

A new expedition to mark next year's 75th anniversary of the battle found the wrecks missing.

The Guardian says it has seen 3D images, showing large holes in the seabed where HMS Exeter, HMS Encounter, the destroyer HMS Electra, as well as a US submarine, used to be.

Experts say salvaging the wrecks would have been a huge operation.

The Dutch defence ministry is to investigate the mysterious disappearance.

In a statement, it said that two of its ships had completely gone, with sonar images only showing imprints, while large parts of a third ship, a destroyer, were missing.

"The desecration of a war grave is a serious offence," the ministry said.

The UK's Ministry of Defence confirmed that it had contacted the Indonesian authorities.

An MOD spokesperson said, "Many lives were lost during this battle and we would expect that these sites are respected and left undisturbed without the express consent of the United Kingdom."

Deep sea salvage: How to recover lost treasures of the deep

Theo Doorman, 82, son of legendary Rear Admiral Karel Doorman, who led the battle, was on the expedition which hoped to film the wrecks two weeks ago.

He said he could not believe his eyes when the sonar images came in, showing only a groove where his father's ship had been.

"I was sad," he said.

"Not angry. That doesn't get you anywhere. But sad. For centuries is was a custom not to disturb sailors' graves. But it did happen here."
Image copyright Netherlands Institute of Military History
The Battle of the Java Sea

27 February 1942
Allied action to stop Japanese Navy
Dutch, British, Australian, US forces ships involved
Five cruisers and nine destroyers involved, Led by Rear-Admiral Karel Doorman
Only two ships remained
Vanished ships are HNLMS De Ruyter, HNLMS Java, and HNLMS Kortenaer
Defeat led to the Japanese occupation of the Dutch East Indies (now Indonesia)

The seas around Indonesia, Singapore and Malaysia are a graveyard for hundreds of ships and submarines sunk during the war.

Illegal salvaging of the wrecks for steel, aluminium and brass has become commonplace.

But the three missing wrecks were located 100km (60 miles) off the coast of Indonesia, at a depth of 70m. Salvage operators say it would not be easy to lift them.

"It is almost impossible to salvage this," Paul Koole of the salvage film Mammoet told the Algemeen Dagblad. "It is far too deep."

Experts say the operation would have needed large cranes for long periods of time and would be unlikely to have gone unnoticed.

The Indonesian Navy, when contacted by the BBC, said they were unaware of the disappearance but said they would investigate.

"To say that the wreckage had gone suddenly, doesn't make sense," Navy spokesman Colonel Gig Sipasulta said. "It is underwater activities that can take months even years."

The Dutch authorities have also notified the other countries that formed part of the international expedition: the UK, Australia and the US.
So somewhere someone had to dispose of all the ammo on those ships too. I assume it is now all scattered over some coral reef, or being scrapped by small children.

Color me not so surprised, since this also managed to take place in the North Sea in the 1950s when numerous Jutland wrecks were demolished. It just appears modern technology and corruption standards have done a cleaner job of it. ISIL isn't alone in the world for shear jackassery.
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Re: Allied wargraves/warship wrecks stolen in Indoneshia

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It sucks and the people who did it should be charged buttttttt one has to look at from the opposite perspective.

Its a pile of money sitting at the bottom of the ocean rusting away in an area that is probably pretty poor. These wrecks are in their waters, just sitting there undisturbed because some far richer country on the other end of the earth said they can't touch it. Wrecks that can be salvaged to get money to feed their families, to live on.

Thats not defending their actions but merely stating I understand the reason someone might have to go salvage a war grave.

Though from how they are describing it it doesn't sound like they think some local junk crew could have pulled it off. I wonder if it wasn't some locals scrapping the metal who it could be? War artifact hunters? No doubt a market for authentic war relics, especially more rare stuff like I'd assume stuff on sunken ships might be, harder to get to. Maybe gun runners? I doubt much of anything from a WWII wreck would be in usable condition though, any ordinance would be stupidly unstable I'd think. Would a more professional salvage operation go after these wrecks? I'd think the metal wouldn't be worth it enough to cover the cost of raising material if salvaging is as hard as the expert in the articles says.

I'd have considerably less sympathy for the people who took the wrecks, and again even if I have sympathy it doesn't mean I'm excusing their actions, if it was professional job.
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Re: Allied wargraves/warship wrecks stolen in Indoneshia

Post by FTeik »

I have mixed feelings about the "wargrave desecration". For one maritime fauna wouldn't care about the sacredness of a place, only about an easily to reach meal. And considering how many corpses we dug out over history to examine in laboratories and then put them into museums (like the mummies of the old egyptians) I find it hypocritical to cry "grave desecration" in one case, but not in the other.
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Re: Allied wargraves/warship wrecks stolen in Indoneshia

Post by Zixinus »

So I take that the quote in the article about how it is too deep is not to be believed? How serious resources would it take for someone to salvage such ships?

But aside the metals and historic artifacts, what's really valuable on such ships? The munitions must have gone bad by now, maybe to the point of it being unstable. Because I'm curious why would someone bother to do this secretly do what is probably a mayor operations.
War artifact hunters?
They'd loot the wrecks clean but would they pick up the wrecks entirely to the point that there is nothing left of them but holes?
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Re: Allied wargraves/warship wrecks stolen in Indoneshia

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Zixinus wrote:They'd loot the wrecks clean but would they pick up the wrecks entirely to the point that there is nothing left of them but holes?
Perhaps its a case, to use an incredibly shitty analogy, like when someone cuts down corn stalks to harvest them rather then picking them. Pure conjecture it might be faster and easier to grab the whole thing rather then sending divers (at 70 meters diving becomes more dangerous because its past the depths nitrogen narcosis and oxygen toxicity become hazards) or expensive ROV bots. Probably ain't going to take as much work to simply play claw machine with a crane and pull up everything.

It also has the side benefits of leaving no evidence behind of who did it and allows the people doing it to sell off the metal to make more of a profit.

Of course artifact hunting of this method and illegal salvage both have the same results, the ship completely gone, so its hard to say which it could be. I thought maybe artifact hunter just on how hard it would be to salvage the wrecks, maybe not worth the cost to just salvagers. Though thats if the people quoted in the article aren't bullshitting about how much of a challenge pulling up the wrecks might be.
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Re: Allied wargraves/warship wrecks stolen in Indoneshia

Post by Zixinus »

That was my second thought. Maybe it's a combined operation? Salvagers bring up the ship, treasure hunters scour it for stuff that can be sold on the black market and give the rest to salvagers as scrap?

But what about the ammunition?
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Re: Allied wargraves/warship wrecks stolen in Indoneshia

Post by Joun_Lord »

Zixinus wrote:But what about the ammunition?
I'd assume they' be too corroded to be of use. However these ships were in deeper and colder water which would mean they'd decay slower then the vessels in shallower warmer water.

To show an example, ships in the Chuuk Lagoon are in varying states of decomposition, some rusted hulks while others are in remarkable shape with human remains still onboard. The best preserved ships lie in the deepest water, close to the depths the missing ships were in.

Completely off the wall guess but if human bones are still intact, haven't corroded to nothing, maybe the ammo might be salvageable, maybe. At the very least there seems to be a problem (see page 13) of salvaged ammo's powder still being viable and used in homemade explosives. Even if the shells can't be fired without making the gun look like one of Elmer Fudd's gun after Bugs sticks his finger in the barrel they could still have some worth.
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Re: Allied wargraves/warship wrecks stolen in Indoneshia

Post by Sky Captain »

How the hell someone managad to pull of that kind of recovery operation vithout being spotted. HMS Exeter was heavy cruiser arond 170 m long and 10 000 tons. Recovering it would be major industrial operation involving large amounts of heavy machinery. Something comparable to raising Russian submarine Kursk. Thats not something that could be done by local people using some converted fishing boats with jurry rigged cranes.
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Re: Allied wargraves/warship wrecks stolen in Indoneshia

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Once a wreck was cut into sections they could remove them one by one over time. Kursk was hard because it was lifted in one piece, and the water was very cold. But yeah certainly not the work of starving fishermen. Really this is not plausible without a lot of corruption, but I expect nothing else from that region.

The reason to steal them would be the radiation free steel and value of certain items like the screws as scrap. The ammo and guns are all junk, and the fillers in the shells may be extremely unstable depending on what the Dutch used. TNT will crystalize over time.
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