Stop fretting over religious sensitivities. We must push hard against Islamists

[Flagg]

Looking at this thread, people seem to switch between Muslims, Islamist and Jihadists like they are the same thing. Needless to say, it just makes debating about Islam problematic for the left and the right because they are both going to conflate the terms. The right when they talk about Jihadists and terrorists, they are going to conflate it with all Muslims (I am sure we have all seen examples). The left when they conflate Islamists with terrorists and Jihadists, and then poisons the debate when people point out there is a high proportion of Islamists within the Muslim population of <insert country here> which is troubling. The left then just strawmans this argument and goes "you say all muslims are terrorists." (Cenk Uygur I am looking at you). This thread just proves my main point.

Cenk Uygur is an Armenian Holocaust denier, so fuck him. The problem with labeling is that not everyone in group A believes everything group A "stands for." It's a complex issue and not to treat it as such (not saying you are or are not) is madness.

[mr friendly guy]

Indeed. Not all Muslims are Islamists. The problem I find for the Left, is the reflex to use a strawman and accuse the other side of saying all Muslims are Islamists even when sometimes as high as 20% of Muslims in a particular country have views which are frankly troubling, and which we would associate with Islamists specifically. For example 24% of UK Muslims said "don't know" or refuse to answer when questioned whether violence is ok for cartoonists who draw the Prophet.

[ray245]

Indeed. Not all Muslims are Islamists. The problem I find for the Left, is the reflex to use a strawman and accuse the other side of saying all Muslims are Islamists even when sometimes as high as 20% of Muslims in a particular country have views which are frankly troubling, and which we would associate with Islamists specifically. For example 24% of UK Muslims said "don't know" or refuse to answer when questioned whether violence is ok for cartoonists who draw the Prophet.

This is what I've been trying ( and perhaps failing) to say. it is dangerous to make an assumption that the Muslim population in Europe are necessarily as liberal as the majority of Christians in western Europe. Whether this assumption is legit isn't the main point. It's the perception that the average Muslim in Europe is more conservative than the average Christian in Europe that fuels the rhetoric of Islamophobia. And the Left's seemingly lack of desire to tackle or talk about this perceived problem is not helping the situation. It makes it easy for the far-right to portray the left as being willfully ignorant.

In creating safe spaces for Muslims, we have perhaps make it harder for the liberal voice within Islam to be heard.

[Shroom Man 777]

I wonder shroom if you've ever noticed Malaysian Muslim politicians subtly hinting that we should stop criticizing Islam lest it cause people to...act out...

Nice harmony we've got here, would be a shame if we had to... prevent... provocation.

Subtly?

You guys have a good Diet Apartheid going.

[Flagg]

Indeed. Not all Muslims are Islamists. The problem I find for the Left, is the reflex to use a strawman and accuse the other side of saying all Muslims are Islamists even when sometimes as high as 20% of Muslims in a particular country have views which are frankly troubling, and which we would associate with Islamists specifically. For example 24% of UK Muslims said "don't know" or refuse to answer when questioned whether violence is ok for cartoonists who draw the Prophet.

Well yeah, but define "violence". It could just be a smack upside the head (still unacceptable) though I'm not so naive as to make that assumption. But Pope Francis advocated punching people in the face if they question your faith and he's the head of the largest religious organization on Earth.

[AniThyng]

I wonder shroom if you've ever noticed Malaysian Muslim politicians subtly hinting that we should stop criticizing Islam lest it cause people to...act out...

Nice harmony we've got here, would be a shame if we had to... prevent... provocation.

Subtly?

You guys have a good Diet Apartheid going.

I meant to put that in scare quotes

And yeah, it's incredibly difficult to say, stand up to the pan-Malaysian Islamic party without getting tarred by the "how dare you criticize Islam" brush, particularly when the issue at hand is indeed in the Quran.

[LadyTevar]

OK, this started as Sarcasm (I Hope), and has degenerated to the point where Flagg Conceded and still got slammed. So enough is enough, Thread Locked.