For those of you who are U.S. citizens

[The Romulan Republic]

Leaving aside Soontir C'Baoth's fanatical, hateful, and dishonest ranting for the time being to make a more general point:

Honestly, if you want the Democratic Party to splinter, if you want a true Progressive Party in the United States, then you should pray for, and work for, the crushing defeat of the Republicans, in 2018 and in every cycle to follow.

The Democratic Party is essentially at least two parties, held mostly together by the (entirely justified) fear of the Republicans.

Remove that threat, and I'd bet that within one or two election cycles, the Democratic Party would splinter, with the Centrists joining the few remaining moderate Republicans to form a new Centrist party, and the Progressives forming their own party on the Left.

That can only happen, however, if the Republicans are no longer a political power in this country, and the Alt. Reich is relegated to the fringe. If we are divided while they are united (or just more united than us), then they will win, and their will be little future for either the Progressives or the Centrists.

That may seem a long-shot, but political parties have fallen before, and the Republicans command a smaller and smaller percentage of the American electorate, and the radicalization of the party makes it nearly impossible for them to even consider changing course. They have no political future- except as despots. That is what we have to guard against now.

And it is, at any rate, no more of a longshot than a viable third party under the present circumstances.

[Soontir C'boath]

I don't want the Democratic Party to splinter thank you very much. My whole point has been that I want the party to win and it's not going to happen if they stay on the course they are on now. You can delude yourself all you want that the answer is that the voters must respond to the party rather than the party respond to the voters to win, but ultimately what shows what happens at the end of the day is that Trump was the epitome of all the losses the Democratic Party has had over the years and it will continue if we have it with Romulan Republic's direction and ignorance of what the state of the American populace is in.

If I am a hater of the Democratic party for pointing that out and the utter Republican-esque shit it pulls itself, then so be it because I see this party burning to ashes if it doesn't change course.

[The Romulan Republic]

If you don't want the Democratic Party to splinter, then you should stop pushing a narrative that will exacerbate internal divisions, demanding that we prioritize fighting out internal divisions over dealing with the threat posed by our common adversaries, and launching vitriolic personal attacks on those who hold a different view.

Again, I never said that I wanted to "stay the course", nor do I want the voters to respond to the party, rather than the other way 'round. I don't see it as a simple situation of "progressive voters vs. establishment party"- that's overly simplistic, and I started out, again, by saying that both sides need to compromise, or at least put some issues on the back burner while we deal with the more immediate threat.

Its a question of prioritizing, of choosing our battles. Can you understand that?

I apologize if I misunderstood you at any point, but at this point, I honestly feel as though you are less debating me, than you are attacking a straw Democrat in your head.

Also, please stop pretending that Trump's electoral loss is reflective of the will of the American people, and repeating the "Democrats are just like the Republicans" line, especially after admitting in your last post that it is false.

Anyway, I'm going to make one more effort to have a straightforward conversation on these issues.

[quote="Soontir C'boath"[/quote]I was responding accordingly to this:

Its all focused on the Republicans.

Not my problem if you were actually the one that took it down the wrong direction after my reply.[/quote]

In that case, you took one sentence out of context, and extrapolated it into an argument than it was not intended to be.

I believe that we should prioritize opposing the Republicans. I interpret that as both the Centre and Progressives needing to make some compromises, rather than the defense of the Centrist establishment that you took it as.

Er, dude. The voting populace as they showed back in 2016 showed what the people want. Which was, not Hillary and other establishment candidates.

Trump lost the popular vote.

Portraying Trump's "victory" as a sweeping public repudiation of Hillary and the status quo is right out of Alt. Right propaganda, and is denying the actual choices of the people to conform to your narrative.

I am not demanding purity you dumbass. I am demanding a party that actually responds to the voters who will then actually vote for them.

You say you are not demanding purity, yet you accuse the Democrats of being as bad as the Republicans, because some Democrats voted in a way you oppose on some issues. And deride me as a "typical Democrat" who supports "staying the course" because I don't feel that constant party infighting is the most productive use of our energy.

Are you in an idiot? My analogy is YOU withholding the life boats forcing people to jump and drown.

I get what you were saying. My point is that it suggests that you are interested in actually trying to fix the Democratic Party, if you think that people should simply "abandon ship".

My view is that it is ultimately a broken analogy, because the ship isn't actually sinking. You're just shouting that its sinking while you try to blow holes in the side, and then telling people to jump into life boats that aren't actually there.

Even if you are doing this with the best of intentions, the result is the same.

]Holy shit, I don't even know what you are even talking about here, but I guess a progressives that ran are just Trumpkins in disguise. *roll eyes*

There was nothing unclear about what I said.

And yes, it is known that both Trump and the Russians actively tried to feed "Bernie or Bust" sentiments, for entirely obvious reasons, although I am not aware, and did not claim, that any progressive candidates who actually ran for office were Trumpers.

No, of course not." Right, typical Democrat. Ignore the taint of the Democratic party as if it means nothing to other people. Unfortunately, it does and people do take those issues into account.

"typical Democrat".

I mean, not to drag personal history into this, but I backed Bernie in the primary until June, and probably permanently damaged my reputation on this board in doing so. I am a fervent supporter of Universal Health Care and Basic Income, the latter of which is so far outside the political mainstream in the US that even Bernie Sanders would probably never mention it. You say that you don't demand purity or perfection, but if I'm "typical Democrat" of the "establishment", then what exactly do you consider progressive enough?

I fucking wish I was a "typical Democrat", policy-wise.

I will only say that I'm pretty sure there were two that actually did.

As I understand it, two voted against a provision introduced by Bernie Sanders to amend the bill to require a 2/3rds. vote to cut Social Security. That might be what you are thinking of.

That also, incidentally, means that the overwhelming majority of Democratic Senators did not vote against that provision.

Not one Democrat voted for the final bill.

You're an idiot. The Democratic Party brought this all with their bullshit to begin with.

Listen to yourself. You are now apparently attempting to place the entire blame for this bill on the party which cast not one single vote in its favour, and not on the party which introduced, rammed through, and nearly lock-step voted for the bill. That's absurd.

This is my problem with your arguments: Its not that you criticize the Democratic Party, and its certainly not that you want it to move further to the Left. Its not even that you treat both parties as equally bad, as much as I loath that line- its that you exhibit such a vitriolic hatred for the current Democratic Party in particular that you have basically abandoned all sense of perspective, to the point that you are now indirectly making excuses for the Republican Party and the Alt. Right in order to further your attack on the Democrats.

Again, go fuck yourself with that "perfect" rhetoric.

Perhaps I overstated my point, slightly, but it is very clear that you disproportionately attack and exaggerate the flaws of the Democratic Party because it does not sufficiently conform to your priorities. To the point that you are willing to downplay or indirectly prop up the Radical Right to attack the Democrats. And that you consider the internal conflicts of the Democratic Party and Progressives to be of greater importance than stopping the wholesale destruction of our civil liberties and social safety net by the Republicans.

People want thing out of their candidate and when they vote in such way that they do not, how is this not any different than laughing and blaming Republicans for voting against their own interests?

Sod off with your idiocy.

See, that all sounds reasonable. Except that the degree to which the Democrats (even the most Centrist/Centre-Right of them, who by no means represent the entire party) ignore their constituents interests absolutely pales compared to the degree that even the most "moderate" Republicans tend to do so.

Besides, what do you define as "voting against their interests"? You're never going to get a perfect candidate, and you say that's not what you demand. So what is good enough? Does one questionable vote mean you should abandon a candidate, even if they are doing good work in other areas and the alternatives are far worse? Ten votes? Are there particular issues you consider automatic disqualifiers, and if so, which ones?

And yet, how many bills have been passed with Democratic support that still fucked people over because their donors pressured them to do so? Sure it's better than Republicans,

I'm glad you finally acknowledged that. Even if you promptly backtracked.

but we need to fight for something much better than the shitstorm the Democratic party has shifted into, and NO NOT TOWARDS SOMETHING FUCKING PERFECT EITHER YOU SHITSTAIN. That is a huge misrepresentation and you know it.

Okay rather than screaming accusations and insults at me, how about you actually say, in specifics rather than vague generalities, what would you consider sufficient for the Democrats to earn your vote?

The question is, whether you realize the current Democratic Party is simply not good enough for what people need. You said it yourself people overwhelmingly polled that they want progressive policies, but the Democrats are simply not offering it and that's what you need to understand.

Some Democrats are. Some aren't. Often, it depends on the issue.

Every single one of them is more progressive than every single one of the Republican legislators.

I am asking them to stop voting like a vintage Republican and actually vote like a Democrat again. Just because most voted down today's tax bill, STILL DOESN'T CHANGE THE NEGATIVE IMPACTS THEY CONTINUE TO ENGENDER AT OTHER TIMES BY VOTING FOR THEIR BIG DOLLAR DONORS.

Ask yourself: what will actually accomplish what you want? Working within the Democratic Party to support progressives in a manner that does not undermine the party as a whole, attempting to engage in civil disagreement, and compromising when possible or deferring internal conflicts when it is not? Or making blanket attacks on the party, in the vain hope that that will make it more supportive of your interests, or more capable of advancing them?

We have to move to the Left. We also have to do so without alienating people whose support we are going to need, without ripping the party apart, and without distracting us from the far greater common threat. That will mean making some unpleasant compromises, for all of us. I made mine when I voted for Hillary Clinton in the general election, but I don't regret that choice, even in hindsight and knowing the outcome. I would have expected the same from her supporters if Bernie Sanders had won the primary.

I'm going to pull a quote from TOS here:

"Only a fool fights in a burning house."

[The Romulan Republic]

It also occurs to me, somewhat belatedly, that this is veering off the original topic somewhat. If you want to continue this discussion, perhaps a separate thread or via PM would be better?

[SolarpunkFan]

Here's an event map for those able to attend any.

https://events.battleforthenet.com/

[The Romulan Republic]

So now they have to reconcile the House and Senate bills. I very much doubt the bill will be blocked successfully at this point, as the Congressional Republicans seem almost unanimously committed to screwing the American people come Hell or high water, but I'll be making calls in any case, and would encourage others to do the same.

Those who vote against this bill need to be told that they have the voters' support. And those who vote for it should be made to sweat about their reelection prospects.