Woman says Franken groped, kissed her without consent in 2006

[Broomstick]

You know, Simon, your last paragraph would carry a lot more weight if being "blind and tone-deaf to woman's right to privacy and security of their own bodies" wasn't SO. FUCKING. COMMON! Men didn't (and still don't) see it because they don't have to, it doesn't/didn't impact them.

Franken's offenses, for all they are loathsome, are small potatoes to compared to so many others. Until the worst offenders fall (like Moore) I don't see any purpose to throwing the lesser offenders under the bus. If we do that the powerful worst offenders will happily sacrifice the lesser as a distraction to save their own skins then go right back to business as usual down the road.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'm not going to weigh in on weather or not Franken should resign as a matter of principle.

But if Roy Moore, God help us, gets elected to the Senate, he absolutely should. Because the Democrats will rightly demand that Roy Moore be expelled from the Senate for his (far worse than Frankens') acts. And we already know what the response will be:

"Oh, you want to kick Roy Moore out, but you still have Franken in the Senate. Partisan witchhunt! The Democrats are the REAL rapists!"

So, if Moore takes the Senate, it is absolutely Franken's duty to fall on his metaphorical sword and resign his seat, to deny the Republicans that defense for Moore.

[PainRack]

Given that the far right is remembering how to spell "false flag," I'm not putting credence in the anonymous accusations.

The named accusers are sufficient for me to drop my assessment of Al Franken's character right down to the floor and leave cracks in the tiles. And the reason I think he should resign is that if he ever was a patriot, he realistically cannot serve his country better than by setting the precedent that sexually harassing senators are supposed to resign. If he never was a patriot, he shouldn't have been elected to the Senate in the first place.

See, maybe he acted without what we might call criminal intent, but at best his actions were the equivalent of negligence: of being so blind and tone-deaf to women's right to privacy and security of their own bodies that it is simply staggering to imagine a good person who thought that way in 2006.

I would argue that should be a matter for the ethics committee to decide but otherwise agreed.

[Simon_Jester]

You know, Simon, your last paragraph would carry a lot more weight if being "blind and tone-deaf to woman's right to privacy and security of their own bodies" wasn't SO. FUCKING. COMMON! Men didn't (and still don't) see it because they don't have to, it doesn't/didn't impact them.

There's blind enough to not notice things going on that, y'know, don't happen in front of you...

...And there's blind enough to actually do it. I mean seriously, if Franken thought it was okay to put his tongue in some woman's mouth on the pretext of "rehearsing the kissing scene" in 2006, something isn't right. I'm not saying he's the only one, but... not right.

Franken's offenses, for all they are loathsome, are small potatoes to compared to so many others. Until the worst offenders fall (like Moore) I don't see any purpose to throwing the lesser offenders under the bus. If we do that the powerful worst offenders will happily sacrifice the lesser as a distraction to save their own skins then go right back to business as usual down the road.

I dunno.

I mean, if Democrats set a pattern of "we're willing to have OUR groping congressmen step down, how about YOU, oh mightily moral majoritarian family values Republicans?"... That might actually make some lemonade out of this enormous avalanche of lemons.

[Broomstick]

I don't think the Repubs will go for that. They will still be denying any wrongdoing on the part of their side while condemning the Dems. It's what they've been doing since Reagan.

[The Romulan Republic]

Republicans will lie like the Orwellian sociopaths they have become, yes. The object is to make it harder for their lies to seem credible to the minds of the public. The greatest tool the Republicans (and Putin) have for manipulating the public is the false equivalency- it stifles political discussion and analysis, encourages defeatist cynicism in the electorate which supresses turnout and activism, and normalizes the worst elements of politics, while providing a constant means to distract and deflect against any attack. Anything we can do (without compromising our core values) to neuter the False Equivalency Lie should be a top political priority.

[Simon_Jester]

I don't think the Repubs will go for that. They will still be denying any wrongdoing on the part of their side while condemning the Dems. It's what they've been doing since Reagan.

Yeah, but over time independent voters are gonna start noticing the difference. Especially when the independent voters in question are millenials who actually HAVE internalized the whole "thou shalt not gropeth thy attractive female neighbor's ass" as a commandment.

I think it's a norm worth establishing that when it is de facto obvious that a Democratic politician has a history of being a groperizer, they step down and let a non-groperizer have a turn.

[PainRack]

Franken has stepped down.
https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... llegations

The thing is, Franken made it clear in his speech he's stepping down for political reasons and that he did not do anything wrong.

Speaking on the Senate floor, Franken, who said he would quit in the coming weeks, said “all women deserve to be heard and their experiences taken seriously”.

But he said that his response to the sexual misconduct allegations against him “gave some people the false impression that I was admitting doing things that I hadn’t done. Some of the allegations against me are simply not true. Others I remember differently.”

.... Politics wise, yeah, he stepping down gives the Democrats the moral upper hand but that speech is disturbing.

If he did criminally intent to molest and harass women, this is him denying it and "getting" away with it.

If he didn't, well...... Franken still displayed poor taste and violated two women personal space at least , if not six but it would be sad to see the person who got sessions reclused and made it possible for Mueller to investigate the President treated like this. It taints his political legacy with personal foibles but I guess that is true of all politicians...

[Simon_Jester]

Well, I'll be calling Franken a jackass, but at least I won't be calling him unpatriotic anymore.

.... Politics wise, yeah, he stepping down gives the Democrats the moral upper hand but that speech is disturbing.

If he did criminally intent to molest and harass women, this is him denying it and "getting" away with it.

Uh... he's just as criminally liable as he ever was. The big problem is that these allegations are not coming forward until, unless I'm mistaken, the statute of limitations has expired. Statutes of limitations are kind of important, and I don't know if anything can or should be done about it.

If he didn't, well...... Franken still displayed poor taste and violated two women personal space at least , if not six but it would be sad to see the person who got sessions reclused and made it possible for Mueller to investigate the President treated like this. It taints his political legacy with personal foibles but I guess that is true of all politicians...

If he didn't want his legacy tainted with personal foibles, he should have sought these women out and made amends to them personally a LONG goddamn time ago.

[Broomstick]

The thing is, I'm not convinced anything Franken did was, in fact a crime. Boorish, in poor taste, rude, and a lot of other things but not something you could go to jail for. A misdemeanor at most. Unless I'm lacking some sort of important fact.

[The Romulan Republic]

What Franken did was obviously sleazy, and his attempts to deny and downplay are as well. I don't know if it was criminal (though it probably ought to be), and I'm all for "innocent until proven guilty in a court of law", as a rule. But as I've said before, his resignation was necessary and right.

Yes, as PainRack said, its sad to see a career that in many ways benefited the nation end like this, but them's the breaks. Franken's resignation is actually consistent with his prior service in opposition to the Trump administration, as his stepping down denies the Republicans a chance to use him to provide political cover for Moore and Trump. If anything, it allows him to salvage a small measure of respectability, as a politician if not as a person, because it suggests that he is willing to put the larger political good over self-interest. Politics is not a career for cowards, and it should be about service to the people and to democratic principles, not service to ones' self. Right now, Franken can serve best by stepping aside.

In the even of Roy Moore's election (sadly likely), his continual presence in the Senate would be more easily used to give Roy Moore (and the Republicans who support him, including fellow accused molester Donald Trump) political cover for even worse transgressions, and undermine the Democrats' attempts to hold them accountable. His resignation denies them that weapon.

[Simon_Jester]

I will say that in the foreseeable future we are likely to see entirely fabricated sexual harassment scandals coming from the right (since there are already women from right-wing "sting" agencies approaching newspapers claiming to be victims of, e.g., Roy Moore). So we should be at least slightly careful that we don't end up in a situation where we're demanding that people (usually male) fall upon their swords too fast.

But that is a concern for the future. For now, I think Franken made that decision... not too fast. Maybe even a little too slow.

[The Romulan Republic]

There is that.

I expect that the Alt. Reich will use the tactic you describe. It would serve at least four distinct propaganda purposes for them.

1.- It can be used to force Democrats out, including from seats more vulnerable than Franken's.

2.-It can be used to provide political cover when their own people harass/molest/rape, by allowing them to paint Democrats as hypocrites and the "Real" sexual predators.

3.-It will undermine the credibility of other accusers, and undermine the calls to believe other victims of sexual abuse.

4.-It will turn one of Social Justice's own movements against itself, forcing advocates of feminism and social justice into a position of having to either disavow any of their own who the Alt. Right makes a false accusation against, or abandon their position of supporting the accusers in cases of sexual assault. In short, it will allow the Alt. Reich to dictate the terms of the debate, and dictate even our own party membership to us.

This is practically an Alt. Reich trademark- they are masters of taking other peoples' causes and movements and co-opting them. They have largely co-opted "Freedom of Speech" (to the point that now, many people will assume you are a Neo-Nazi if you argue against strict hate speech laws). They have co-opted the third party rhetoric of "both major parties are just as bad", and used it to divide the Left and bolster Republicans. And they have partially co-opted Bernie Sanders' base as well.

In short, they co-opt demands for reform, to destroy and delegitimize all efforts at reform.

So we need to be wary. But we also need to not let this obfuscate the issue, or lead to a knee-jerk defence of Democrats, liberals, and progressives who are accused of sexual misconduct. On Facebook today, I saw people saying that they would quit the Democrats because the Democrats "compromised" or "surrendered" or however they put it by demanding that Franken resign.

They are dancing to the Alt. Reich's tune.

[Simon_Jester]

4.-It will turn one of Social Justice's own movements against itself, forcing advocates of feminism and social justice into a position of having to either disavow any of their own who the Alt. Right makes a false accusation against, or abandon their position of supporting the accusers in cases of sexual assault. In short, it will allow the Alt. Reich to dictate the terms of the debate, and dictate even our own party membership to us.

Hopefully, hopefully, our own far-left faction will stop being idiots about this rather than fall for it.

There is a very simple and healthy way to address this problem, which is to acknowledge and not silence the accusers, while also doing due diligence to investigate and confirm their claims before doing anything irrevocable.

"Yes, something happened to you. You are not being disbelieved, you are being taken seriously. Even though, yes, to do as much as you might like about it we'll need to do some homework. If I was murdered, my killer would get punished after investigation and trial, not before. If I were sexually harassed, the same rule is likely to apply."

Anyone who thinks the very existence of investigation, as opposed to severe/crippling punishment following the bare fact of an accusation, is being stupid about this. At best, they're letting their desire to solve one problem blind them to several others.

This is practically an Alt. Reich trademark- they are masters of taking other peoples' causes and movements and co-opting them. They have largely co-opted "Freedom of Speech" (to the point that now, many people will assume you are a Neo-Nazi if you argue against strict hate speech laws).

This only works because left-wing defenders of strict hate speech laws are being stupid about this.

They have co-opted the third party rhetoric of "both major parties are just as bad", and used it to divide the Left and bolster Republicans.

This only works because Golden Mean fallacy people are being stupid.

And they have partially co-opted Bernie Sanders' base as well.

This only works because... I'm beginning to see a pattern here.

So we need to be wary. But we also need to not let this obfuscate the issue, or lead to a knee-jerk defence of Democrats, liberals, and progressives who are accused of sexual misconduct. On Facebook today, I saw people saying that they would quit the Democrats because the Democrats "compromised" or "surrendered" or however they put it by demanding that Franken resign.

They are dancing to the Alt. Reich's tune.

Yep. Pattern.

There is NO reason that social justice should make people stupid. It should be approached eyes open, brains engaged, rationally and competently.

[aerius]

The raping will continue until we the people demand that the rule of law applies equally to everyone and all offenders are prosecuted to the full extent of the law and sent to a pound'em in the ass prison.

I'm gonna ask a few questions here. You've got a whole bunch of sexual predators, abusers, and rapists in Congress and the worst that happens when they get exposed is they might have to resign. Do you ever wonder why they don't give a fuck? And more importantly, what are you going to do about it? Are you going to break out the torches & pitchforks or are you just going to have your daily 2 minutes of hate on some anonymous internet message board?

By the way, thanks to the Legalized Abuse of Assistants Act Congressional Accountability Act of 1995, your government has effectively made abuse, harassment, and rape legal since the victims now have to jump through 1000 hoops to even get to the point where they can file a lawsuit. Read Sec. 7 of the act.

My contention is the rapings will continue until either a)the people break out the pitchforks & torches and use them, or b)a meteor takes out DC with everyone in it.

[FaxModem1]

CBS News

AP December 8, 2017, 7:41 AM
Al Franken's resignation opens up a sudden pickup chance for the GOP
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ST. PAUL, Minn. — Minnesota Sen. Al Franken's departure from the Senate solves one problem for Democrats, demonstrating their will to push out one of their own when sexual harassment allegations pile up. Now they must worry about keeping one more vulnerable seat when they already had their hands full in next year's election.

Franken said Thursday he would resign, just a day after new allegations brought the number of women alleging he had groped or tried to kiss them to at least eight.

In a sometimes emotional speech delivered on the Senate floor, Franken said some of the accusations were false, but acknowledged he couldn't continue.

"I know in my heart that nothing I have done as a senator — nothing — has brought dishonor on this institution," Franken declared.


The former comedian who made his name on "Saturday Night Live" is the latest to fall in the national wave of sexual harassment allegations, coming just two days after the resignation of Michigan Democratic Rep. John Conyers, who was the longest-serving member in the current House.

His rapid fall leaves Democratic Gov. Mark Dayton to appoint a replacement to serve until at least 2018, when the state would hold an election to finish Franken's six-year term ending in 2020. Dayton said Thursday he expected to do so "in the next couple of days."

Franken's exit gives Republicans an opening to expand their reach in an already favorable Senate map — two dozen Democratic senators are up for re-election next year, including 10 in states that President Donald Trump carried in 2016. That difficult math raises the question of whether Dayton will appoint a temporary placeholder or try to give a Democrat a running start for the 2018 campaign.

His lieutenant governor, Tina Smith, has been most frequently mentioned for the temporary appointment. Smith is a trusted former chief of staff for Dayton and also ran former Vice President Walter Mondale's brief Senate campaign in 2002 after Sen. Paul Wellstone died in a plane crash. But Smith previously announced she wouldn't run for governor next year, suggesting she would be no more than a caretaker.

Dayton could also look to a pair of fellow Democratic statewide elected officials: Attorney General Lori Swanson or State Auditor Rebecca Otto. Otto is running for governor and Swanson is thinking about it; either could conceivably turn into a Senate candidate.

While Dayton weighed his choice, eyes were already turning to the 2018 race, especially among Republicans.

Former Gov. Tim Pawlenty — the last Republican to win a statewide election in Minnesota, in 2006 — was seen as a potential heavyweight contender in the GOP. Another possibility, former Sen. Norm Coleman, quickly ruled himself out.

The timing of Franken's departure is uncertain. Fellow Minnesota Sen. Amy Klobuchar said Franken indicated he would officially step down sometime "by the end of the year." It's an abrupt end for someone who had been seen as coming into his own in Washington.

Franken, 66, had gained respect as a serious lawmaker in recent years and had even been mentioned in talk about the 2020 presidential race. But his downward spiral began Nov. 16, when Leeann Tweeden, now a Los Angeles radio anchor, accused him of forcibly kissing her during a 2006 USO tour in Afghanistan.

Other allegations followed, including a woman who says Franken put his hand on her buttocks as they posed for a photo at the Minnesota State Fair in 2010. Two women told the Huffington Post that Franken squeezed their buttocks at political events during his first campaign for the Senate in 2008. A fourth woman, an Army veteran, alleged Franken cupped her breast during a photo on a USO tour in 2003.

But Franken remained defiant in his parting speech, saying that "some of the allegations against me are simply not true" and disputing the details relayed by other accusers, as he had from the start.

And he pointedly noted that he was being forced out while Trump — who has been accused of worse offenses and bragged on a leaked "Access Hollywood" videotape of grabbing women by their genitalia — emerged unscathed. Trump and fellow Republicans have also endorsed Alabama GOP Senate candidate Roy Moore, who has been accused by multiple women of sexual misconduct with them when they were teens and he was a deputy district attorney in his 30s.

"I, of all people, am aware that there is some irony in the fact that I am leaving while a man who has bragged on tape about his history of sexual assault sits in the Oval Office and a man who has repeatedly preyed on young girls campaigns for the Senate with the full support of his party," Franken said.

GOP views this not as an example of what they need to do in the future, but as an opportunity to fill a seat.

[Simon_Jester]

"I, of all people, am aware that there is some irony in the fact that I am leaving while a man who has bragged on tape about his history of sexual assault sits in the Oval Office and a man who has repeatedly preyed on young girls campaigns for the Senate with the full support of his party," Franken said.

Long term, that irony is likely to prove beneficial.

[The Romulan Republic]

4.-It will turn one of Social Justice's own movements against itself, forcing advocates of feminism and social justice into a position of having to either disavow any of their own who the Alt. Right makes a false accusation against, or abandon their position of supporting the accusers in cases of sexual assault. In short, it will allow the Alt. Reich to dictate the terms of the debate, and dictate even our own party membership to us.

Hopefully, hopefully, our own far-left faction will stop being idiots about this rather than fall for it.

Heh. That'll be the day.

They're still chanting that Hillary is just as bad as Trump.

There is a very simple and healthy way to address this problem, which is to acknowledge and not silence the accusers, while also doing due diligence to investigate and confirm their claims before doing anything irrevocable.

"Yes, something happened to you. You are not being disbelieved, you are being taken seriously. Even though, yes, to do as much as you might like about it we'll need to do some homework. If I was murdered, my killer would get punished after investigation and trial, not before. If I were sexually harassed, the same rule is likely to apply."

Anyone who thinks the very existence of investigation, as opposed to severe/crippling punishment following the bare fact of an accusation, is being stupid about this. At best, they're letting their desire to solve one problem blind them to several others.

I agree.

This only works because left-wing defenders of strict hate speech laws are being stupid about this.

Perhaps. But the point is that it still works, at least to an extent.

This only works because Golden Mean fallacy people are being stupid.

That's not really "Golden Mean", though. They're not playing to the idea that the central position is the right one- if anything, they're playing more to the idea that the major parties (especially the Democrats) aren't ideologically "pure" enough.

This only works because... I'm beginning to see a pattern here.

Yeah, it only works because a lot of people are gullible morons.

The problem is... a lot of people are gullible morons.

Yep. Pattern.

There is NO reason that social justice should make people stupid. It should be approached eyes open, brains engaged, rationally and competently.

The extent to which many (faux) progressives have allowed themselves to be turned into tools for Neo-Fascism simply because they're fixated on hating Hillary, or "the establishment", or whatever, is one of my greatest sources of frustration with current politics.

But its not all their fault. The Alt. Reich has gotten very good at playing on peoples' anger and cynicism, coopting the opposition, stoking divisiveness, and deflecting attacks back at the sender.

The Left, frankly, needs to step up its propaganda game, or perhaps more importantly, its counter-propaganda game. I'm not saying we need to, or should, become as dishonest and frankly delusional as them. But we damn well need to get better at inoculating people against this bullshit.

[PainRack]

https://www.axios.com/schumer-calls-cop ... 19807.html

Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.) said he was the victim of a fake news hit on Tuesday, and has turned over to Capitol Police a document that purports to detail lurid sexual harassment accusations by a former staffer.

Why it matters: This was an apparent effort to dupe reporters and smear a senator — both symptoms of an amped-up news environment where harassment charges are proliferating and reporters have become targets for fraud.

Check out the link for more details but essentially someone forged a staffer signature and used it to claim she was sexually assaulted by Chuck Shumer.


So the ratfucking escalates.... Sigh... Time to dig up the Lesbian Clinton killed her lover Vince foster to prevent a leak, and then Pizzagate and mars sex colony again....

[Simon_Jester]

Well, that took considerably less time, but was considerably less competently done, than the attempt I expected...

[The Romulan Republic]

The raping will continue until we the people demand that the rule of law applies equally to everyone and all offenders are prosecuted to the full extent of the law and sent to a pound'em in the ass prison.

Emphasis mine.

Anyone else detect a certain irony in "I think the rule of law should apply to everyone equally. Now, haha, prison rape"?

[aerius]

The raping will continue until we the people demand that the rule of law applies equally to everyone and all offenders are prosecuted to the full extent of the law and sent to a pound'em in the ass prison.

Emphasis mine.

Anyone else detect a certain irony in "I think the rule of law should apply to everyone equally. Now, haha, prison rape"?

Every time I think you can't possibly be more of a maroon*, you prove me wrong. Do I have to explain what a figure of speech is? Apparently I do, because you are that stupid and/or clueless.

*that's a Bugs Bunny reference, not a typo, you maroon.

[The Romulan Republic]

So I think that making prison rape references in a thread about how we need to stop sexual assault, right after saying the law should apply to everyone equally, is tasteless, stupid, and tone-deaf. So sue me.