Political Heroism (Macron Interview)

[Simon_Jester]

Which is about the right length of time if they're seriously planning for first landing in the early 2020s. The US started thinking seriously about moon shots and moon bases, depending on how you define "seriously," some time between the mid-50s and 1960.

[K. A. Pital]

China's pretty mundane, when it comes to politics. It has a fairly "outdated" (well, as some of the transnationalist camp would like it to be) national idea, a solid nation-state and a fair amount of both talent and productive machinery.

There is a "great idea" (restoring China's rightful place as a great power, maybe even eclisping the US as a superpower, restoring China as "center of the world" the way it was before its decline at the hands of industrial-commercial maritime empires of the West), but it is not well-articulated on a state level and maybe even not the scope of official policy - although under Xi, it definetely got more recognition.

中国不高兴 (China is not content) by Song Qiang however, found some grassroots popularity, which makes it important to read. A read from 2009, it is all the more fascinating in the current, Xi Jinping, period.

The West can't articulate a grand idea to the rest of the world because the last time it tried (neoliberalism), it culminated in the Iraq war and, shortly thereafter, a global economic crisis in which the developing countries were shown that they're on their own and have to rescue global growth. I guess somewhere thereabout it was clear to a lot of people that the neoliberal consensus, if there ever was one, failed so hard and so miserably, and helped China's and Russia's leaders in present day and age with their "multipolar" narrative so much, that the last 'grand narrative' remains discredited until that day.

Another attempt at articulating grand narratives to others won't happen any time soon. Internally, we can expect more inward-looking political discourse in the West as the "equalization" I've talked about on this board as well will start to expose more and more cracks in their neocolonialism-based economic structures; put pressures on stagnant incomes and thereby create more and more problems at home.

This is yet another reason why the time of a Western grand narrative has passed, in my view.

[Kane Starkiller]

When the West no longer needs to beat off the vast majority of potential immigrants with a stick then we'll talk about the end of narrative.
I mean Pew projects that US population alone will be 440 million by 2065 instead of 338 million that it would be without immigration.

[K. A. Pital]

When the West no longer needs to beat off the vast majority of potential immigrants with a stick then we'll talk about the end of narrative.
I mean Pew projects that US population alone will be 440 million by 2065 instead of 338 million that it would be without immigration.

There will always be millions of potential immigrants because the poor are also increasing in number. This does not mean there will be a grand narrative.
More like a primitive „dem foreigners are stealing our jobs“ mantra in place of policy.

440 million in a 11-billion world is not even that much, when you think about it.

The fact that they want to beat potential newcomers off with a stick also shows a lack of vision.

[Kane Starkiller]

There will always be millions of potential immigrants because the poor are also increasing in number. This does not mean there will be a grand narrative.
More like a primitive „dem foreigners are stealing our jobs“ mantra in place of policy.

Seeing as how places like Nigeria and Pakistan have 6 and 5 million births per year respectively yes the poor will indeed continue increasing in number. The point is that the vast majority of the people who want to move out want to move to the West. Obviously the influx of immigrants into the Western countries will cause a certain amount of backlash among the domicile population especially those that aren't doing well economically. Still the big narrative of "better life awaits you in the West" is still alive and well in the world.
I mean do you think that would-be immigrants from Vietnam, China, India, Mexico give a fuck about something called Iraq War when they are planning to move to US?

440 million in a 11-billion world is not even that much, when you think about it.

Well no it isn't. I mean today the entire West has 800 million people which is about 10% of the world population allthough it has 50% of world GDP. What do you think would happen to the population of the West if they said "fuck it anyone who wants to immigrate come right in"?

The fact that they want to beat potential newcomers off with a stick also shows a lack of vision.

No it shows how attractive Western affluence and lifestyle is compared to the rest of the world. There is no way West would be able to absorb all of the people that would want to come in.

[K. A. Pital]

I am not sure what your point here is.

Germans immigrate to Switzerland because it promises larger incomes.

This does not mean that Switzerland has a grand narrative which defines European policy.

Similarly, the Chinese move to Shanghai, but there is no “Shanghai narrative” definig policy.

You say the West is rich and poor people from the Third World will continue to emigrate there. This is not related to the matter at hand at all.

You seem to have mistaken opportunistic individual migration for the subject. Wrong. The subject talks about political grand goals of a nation (in this case France). Goals of individuals to immigrate there for a better life are not national policy and a social grand goal, like putting man on the moon, or any other grand goal you can name.

My point was that other nations listen less and less to Western blueprints for their future, or even openly defy them. There are fewer nations dedicated to the neoliberal policy implementation, and the West itself seems to have backtracked from its goals of fostering a world neoliberal regime with them at its center.

[K. A. Pital]

It is kind of saying Britain remained rich and influential after the dismantling of its empire.

Sure, yes. It did.

But the empire is also gone.

[Kane Starkiller]

I am not sure what your point here is.

Germans immigrate to Switzerland because it promises larger incomes.

This does not mean that Switzerland has a grand narrative which defines European policy.

Similarly, the Chinese move to Shanghai, but there is no “Shanghai narrative” definig policy.

Switzerland is too small to define European policy next to Germany and France. But to say that Switzerland doesn't have a great narrative? Ever heard of Swiss precision? Swiss banks? Swiss Alps? Swiss chocolate? An entire country is a brand.

You say the West is rich and poor people from the Third World will continue to emigrate there. This is not related to the matter at hand at all.

You seem to have mistaken opportunistic individual migration for the subject. Wrong. The subject talks about political grand goals of a nation (in this case France). Goals of individuals to immigrate there for a better life are not national policy and a social grand goal, like putting man on the moon, or any other grand goal you can name.

Well they are not putting a man on the moon but they are building things like Large hadron collider and NASA's exploration of outer planets is unmatched.
Wait better life is not a social grand goal? There are 36 million Mexican Americans. If they and their parents didn't immigrate to US then Mexico today would have something like 155 million people instead of 120 million. What would their quality of life be do you think?

My point was that other nations listen less and less to Western blueprints for their future, or even openly defy them. There are fewer nations dedicated to the neoliberal policy implementation, and the West itself seems to have backtracked from its goals of fostering a world neoliberal regime with them at its center.

They are literally building their factories and machinery by Western blueprints. I mean seriously "other nations" don't listen to West? West doesn't listen to West. Western countries went to war with each other. That doesn't mean the West still isn't the example to the rest of the world in how to organize everything from factory floors to the parliament.
The whole "Western type democracy has failed" shtick is used by dipshit wannabe dictators to justify why they should totally remain in power even as people are streaming out of their countries to the "failed West".

It is kind of saying Britain remained rich and influential after the dismantling of its empire.

Sure, yes. It did.

But the empire is also gone.

Sure the Empire is gone. It was kind of an overkill for an island ten times smaller than India to keep ruling such an Empire. It's economy is still larger than India's and Pakistan's combined even though it has 20 times smaller population. How many Pakistanis and Indians do you think would come to UK if UK were to drop all quotas? Oh but it's "only" for unimportant shit like a better life. UK can't really show them the way regarding the real shit like putting a man on the moon.

[K. A. Pital]

So basically you fail to see the problem when relatively well-off second generation immigrants go off to join ISIS, and it is exactly the point Macron tried to make - eloquently as well - that “a wealthier life” is not, in and of itself, an idea.

The rest of your post follows in the same vein - rururu, better life, rururu, worship the West.

No, and unlike you, some see the problem. In my view they are unable to address it due to objective reasons (while poor, other countries are nowhere near the quashed nothings of colonial age; they have a voice and won’t just take “shitholes” and “rape by China” comments spoken by the new Decider and try to sell a story of self-humiliation and self-shame to their own citizens, as could be imagined under colonial control).

The question is not how many Pakistanis would come to the UK. The question is, would they - if they all come - care about maintaining the UK society as it is? The answer is a likely no. After all, wealth is no substitute for thinking.

You said it was overkill for Britain to rule India which is so much larger. Very soon it will be overkill for the West as a whole to rule the world.

The East is rising.

[K. A. Pital]

Being “a brand” does not mean having a grand narrative either.

Swiss cheese can’t motivate people to do much or be part of an ideology. Well, other than pandering to Swiss xenophobia in the typical “buy Swiss” and “drive away foreigners” campaigns.

Quite typical of the inward looking Western politics as of late.

[Kane Starkiller]

So basically you fail to see the problem when relatively well-off second generation immigrants go off to join ISIS, and it is exactly the point Macron tried to make - eloquently as well - that “a wealthier life” is not, in and of itself, an idea.

What the entire second generation of Muslim immigrants went to fight the ISIS? It's a small percentage and they are coming from non Western countries as well. Young Muslims that go to fight for some ridiculous idea of Caliphate is not a reflection of the West but of problems with Islam.

The rest of your post follows in the same vein - rururu, better life, rururu, worship the West.

Not having a pathological obsession with seeing the West crumble is not worship.

No, and unlike you, some see the problem. In my view they are unable to address it due to objective reasons (while poor, other countries are nowhere near the quashed nothings of colonial age; they have a voice and won’t just take “shitholes” and “rape by China” comments spoken by the new Decider and try to sell a story of self-humiliation and self-shame to their own citizens, as could be imagined under colonial control).

The question is not how many Pakistanis would come to the UK. The question is, would they - if they all come - care about maintaining the UK society as it is? The answer is a likely no. After all, wealth is no substitute for thinking.

Trump is irrelevant. His presidency changes no fundamental aspect of US and certainly not of the entire West. Human beings are emotional: they can be so desperate to leave their own country that they are willing to embark on an open sea trip in a rubber dinghy and yet be deeply offended that someone would call their country a shithole. It doesn't really tell us anything about the appeal of the West which remains as strong as ever.
Also anyone can look at the UK and see how much superior it is to Pakistan in almost every way but it's not so easy to understand why. So many Pakistanis will come to UK but some will try to introduce elements of Pakistani culture not understanding that it would make their own lives worse but most won't. Or do you agree with certain elements in European political scene that people from certain places are unassimilable?

You said it was overkill for Britain to rule India which is so much larger. Very soon it will be overkill for the West as a whole to rule the world.

The East is rising.

Pretty sure Western colonial era ended like 70 years ago. Also pretty sure that the rise of the most succesful East Asian countries involved trade with and sending excess population to US. I am also reasonably certain that the most affluent are also close US allies.

Being “a brand” does not mean having a grand narrative either.

Swiss cheese can’t motivate people to do much or be part of an ideology. Well, other than pandering to Swiss xenophobia in the typical “buy Swiss” and “drive away foreigners” campaigns.

Quite typical of the inward looking Western politics as of late.

Can't motivate people to do much? 8 million Swiss generate 2 times the GDP the 200 million Pakistanis generate. How much more do you want? I mean they don't go around cutting people's heads off like ISIS. Western ideas won't really make you that riled up sure.

[K. A. Pital]

If you seriously think that being an international banking center means each citizen “generates” several times more product than a citizen of a place which is not a banking center, you are an idiot.

My time is limited and idiots do not generate enough satisfaction to continue.

[Kane Starkiller]

And Nazi Gold don't forget the NAZI GOLD.
Hey did you know that in 2016 Switzerland exported $302 billion worth of goods 31% of which are chemical products, 12% instruments and 11% machines. That is, incidentally, the entire economy of Pakistan.

In the interest of full disclosure fully 32% of exports was precious metals Hitler's personal gold stash.

[K. A. Pital]

Still fundamentally unable to grasp the impact of capital flows and long-term effects of capital accumulation, but masking own idiocy with cheap Nazi gold jokes. Totally worth my time now... or not.