George HW Bush has died

[U.P. Cinnabar]

And a fair-sized army of protesters as close as the Secret Service permits them to be, no doubt.

You mean "largest crowd for any Presidential funeral in history," right?

Hell, I'd be willing to fly down to DC to protest the funeral when that fucker kicks the bucket. Usually I'm willing to show some respect to the deceased even if I despised them in life, but I'll be damned if Donald "Treason" Trump gets a dignified send-off at taxpayer expense.

But, he will. As Nixon's death taught me, the evil men do is often buried with them, and the good is manufactured from whole cloth. Or, in Trump's case, cloth of gold.

Well, the US does have a history of honouring traitors (see: every Confederate statue ever). But I think that if we should make one exception, as a nation, to "Don't speak ill of the dead", it should be Donald Trump, whenever his time comes. I wouldn't say that if it was just his private funeral- I would let his family mourn him in peace, if they cared to do so. But from a moral perspective, a man who betrayed his country does not have the right to be buried with honours at his country's expense. And pragmatically, if a country honours traitors, it only encourages further treason.

I agree with you. I'm just saying that's what is most likely to happen. Hell, even Benedict Arnold has been partially rehabilitated as a mere victim of his evil, money grubbing shrew of a wife.

Every man ever had a statue made of him has been one kinda sumbitch or another, Rom. That's unaaceptible, but a lot more people than you and I have to change our way of thinking , before it stops being normal.

[The Romulan Republic]

You mean "largest crowd for any Presidential funeral in history," right?



But, he will. As Nixon's death taught me, the evil men do is often buried with them, and the good is manufactured from whole cloth. Or, in Trump's case, cloth of gold.

Well, the US does have a history of honouring traitors (see: every Confederate statue ever). But I think that if we should make one exception, as a nation, to "Don't speak ill of the dead", it should be Donald Trump, whenever his time comes. I wouldn't say that if it was just his private funeral- I would let his family mourn him in peace, if they cared to do so. But from a moral perspective, a man who betrayed his country does not have the right to be buried with honours at his country's expense. And pragmatically, if a country honours traitors, it only encourages further treason.

I agree with you. I'm just saying that's what is most likely to happen. Hell, even Benedict Arnold has been partially rehabilitated as a mere victim of his evil, money grubbing shrew of a wife.

Ah, America- where hatred of women can Trump even hatred of traitors.*

Every man ever had a statue made of him has been one kinda sumbitch or another, Rom. That's unaaceptible, but a lot more people than you and I have to change our way of thinking , before it stops being normal.

One of my favourite Mal quotes.

*Edit: If only deeply-rooted misogyny were a purely American problem. Humanity has a long tradition of blaming men's evil on women (FYI: theatre actor who fully maintains that Lady Macbeth was not as evil as her husband or responsible for his fall).

[Zaune]

And didn't Benedict Arnold also get passed over for promotion, hauled before Congress on -no pun intended- trumped-up charges and generally treated rather shabbily by the government he was fighting for because he'd made enemies of a few powerful people? (Admittedly he'd made those enemies by being an unscrupulous opportunist with an attitude problem, but still.)

[U.P. Cinnabar]

And didn't Benedict Arnold also get passed over for promotion, hauled before Congress on -no pun intended- trumped-up charges and generally treated rather shabbily by the government he was fighting for because he'd made enemies of a few powerful people? (Admittedly he'd made those enemies by being an unscrupulous opportunist with an attitude problem, but still.)

Yes, yes, yws, and yes.

Fast Fact: The unit of British Loyalists Arnold formed was called...the American Legion

[U.P. Cinnabar]

*Edit: If only deeply-rooted misogyny were a purely American problem. Humanity has a long tradition of blaming men's evil on women (FYI: theatre actor who fully maintains that Lady Macbeth was not as evil as her husband or responsible for his fall).

True. However, to butcher a line from the New Testament, we have to pull the awl from our own eyes, before dealing with the mote of dust in another's.

[Gandalf]

Well, the US does have a history of honouring traitors (see: every Confederate statue ever).

Also, Washington & friends.

[Elheru Aran]

Well, the US does have a history of honouring traitors (see: every Confederate statue ever).

Also, Washington & friends.

To be strictly fair: memoralizing the victorious founders of your country is a different proposition than memorializing the founders and perpetrators of a failed revolt against said country. For your comment to work, we would have to still be British subjects.

[Gandalf]

Well, the US does have a history of honouring traitors (see: every Confederate statue ever).

Also, Washington & friends.

To be strictly fair: memoralizing the victorious founders of your country is a different proposition than memorializing the founders and perpetrators of a failed revolt against said country. For your comment to work, we would have to still be British subjects.

A traitor is a traitor, regardless of whether or not they win.

[Batman]

Not if they're no longer part of the nation they'd be a traitor to

[U.P. Cinnabar]

And, England did recognize the US' independence in the 1783 Treaty of Paris.

[Gandalf]

So if the Confederacy had somehow gained independence and recognition, Davis et al would no longer be traitorous?

[U.P. Cinnabar]

So if the Confederacy had somehow gained independence and recognition, Davis et al would no longer be traitorous?

Yes. From a certain point of view.

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, traitors or not, they'd still have been slaving pieces of shit, which is more important (which, yes, would apply to a significant percentage of America's founders, although they did not separate for the express purpose of preserving and expanding slavery, as the South did).

[Gandalf]

Well, traitors or not, they'd still have been slaving pieces of shit, which is more important (which, yes, would apply to a significant percentage of America's founders, although they did not separate for the express purpose of preserving and expanding slavery, as the South did).

No, but they were slaveholders who separated for the purpose of (among other things) expanding westward.

Yes. From a certain point of view.

Meaning...?

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, traitors or not, they'd still have been slaving pieces of shit, which is more important (which, yes, would apply to a significant percentage of America's founders, although they did not separate for the express purpose of preserving and expanding slavery, as the South did).

No, but they were slaveholders who separated for the purpose of (among other things) expanding westward.

True. The real losers of the war were the Native Americans.

[Gandalf]

Well, traitors or not, they'd still have been slaving pieces of shit, which is more important (which, yes, would apply to a significant percentage of America's founders, although they did not separate for the express purpose of preserving and expanding slavery, as the South did).

No, but they were slaveholders who separated for the purpose of (among other things) expanding westward.

True. The real losers of the war were the Native Americans.

Pretty much. Another way of looking at it is that the war was a group of rich white men starting a war so they didn't have to give money to a richer white man across the Atlantic. It's pretty hard to take their grandiose claims about freedom seriously given what the early US looked like.

[The Romulan Republic]

I think though that the idea is worth something, even though it wasn't lived up to at the time. By wrapping their cause in rhetoric of freedom and equality, and creating mechanisms to amend the Constitution in the future, they ensured that the country would continue to aspire toward being a more just society.