Putin's campaign of assassination and terror, and the complicity of Western authorities.

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Re: Putin's campaign of assassination and terror, and the complicity of Western authorities.

Post by K. A. Pital »

FaxModem1 wrote:Humans dislike the other, it's part of human nature, and having non-people to fight allows for less chance of humanization by the audience than if they were all clearly visible. Again, this is why martial arts films have the waves of ninjas or soldiers clad all in black. It's not a solely American or Western phenomenon.
But this was my point. Dehumanizing the other is an important element of nationalistic propaganda. It's not "human nature" by any means, it is something that must be taught, a science of hatred if you like. As children, it would not occur to us to hate another child for the color of skin or manner of speech. This is something we learn later, when we learn about nations, "us" and "others", and slowly as adolescents we inhale the poison of nationalism and see it spread into our very feeling and thinking.

I fully agree this is not an American-only phenomenon, but like I said, most propaganda made by other nations does not enjoy popularity on a world scale. I'm sure a North Korean animation where animals kill other animals who are "foreign agents" would be immediately and rightfully called crude propaganda, but for the US are we making excuses?

Note I've never said the US is unique or the only one. It's just the biggest of all, and so is its propaganda, but the others are doing the same thing. I just asked why and how the US can "up its propaganda game" when it's already propagandizing self in most of its pop-culture?! This was my question, not that the US is somehow unique.
FaxModem1 wrote:It's not like there's a long held tradition in other cultures of having the protagonist go through waves of bad guys. Except for any martial arts film that's come out in the past century.
There is. It is also related to propaganda and utilized heavily by militaristic elements in society and of course by the government to stimulate population in a war.
FaxModem1 wrote:Is that acceptable because it's made by the Chinese? Because it espouses banding together in times of crisis? Because it takes potshots at the US? Or not?
No, it's not. But I don't know about it. I literally have no clue about this film or China's propaganda. It has little influence outside China. Now, if a Chinese nationalist came here and said "China should up its propaganda game", I could understand his goals: make more Chinese propaganda accessible to foreigners, create more internationally-oriented works in which China is depicted as benevolent masters, etc. This would make sense.

The US "upping its propaganda game" doesn't make sense: the world is chock-full of US propaganda. The fact we're discussing it now, and we're mostly even non-US foreigners (myself obviously, then TRR is a Canadian and Tribble also isn't a US citizen methinks), speaks to the breadth and width of US' propaganda reach.
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Re: Putin's campaign of assassination and terror, and the complicity of Western authorities.

Post by FaxModem1 »

There's also the big issue that languages are an issue in international film industry. Transformers films, while looked at rather negatively in the US, are loved in China because they aren't big think pieces. There's little need for translation due to all the action scenes with little dialogue. So of course the mass media that goes out will be the violent blockbusters, because nuanced conversations are harder to translate, and as are cultural differences. Two or more people in a fight is mich easier to instantly appreciate onscreen. That's less to do with American culture than the divide between the audience that made the media and the the audience that watched it overseas.

This is why, for instance, there's a niche of Americans who enjoy overseas action movies, because they translate well. And vice versa. It's not because they're meant to be pushing 'Go America. Fuck yeah', it's because the plot is very easy to translate as compared to think pieces about philosophy or the human condition.
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Re: Putin's campaign of assassination and terror, and the complicity of Western authorities.

Post by GrosseAdmiralFox »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-08-24 02:50am I know you think the solution to authoritarianism is more authoritarianism, but I am skeptical that any amount of censorship could effectively keep Russian propaganda out. I think we'd get further by upping our own propaganda game, putting out an equally compelling counter-narrative.
Here's the thing, FOX News -and the resulting media bubble that it created- literally wouldn't have existed if the old 'Fair News' laws -which Reagan repealed explicitly so the GOP would have a propaganda machine- were still in force.

Give humans a little slack, they'll show you why you need to practically choke them on their choke chains.
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Re: Putin's campaign of assassination and terror, and the complicity of Western authorities.

Post by Gandalf »

GrosseAdmiralFox wrote: 2019-08-24 09:09pm
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-08-24 02:50am I know you think the solution to authoritarianism is more authoritarianism, but I am skeptical that any amount of censorship could effectively keep Russian propaganda out. I think we'd get further by upping our own propaganda game, putting out an equally compelling counter-narrative.
Here's the thing, FOX News -and the resulting media bubble that it created- literally wouldn't have existed if the old 'Fair News' laws -which Reagan repealed explicitly so the GOP would have a propaganda machine- were still in force.

Give humans a little slack, they'll show you why you need to practically choke them on their choke chains.
Quality of outcome will depend on who holds said chain. Think it through.
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Re: Putin's campaign of assassination and terror, and the complicity of Western authorities.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Gandalf wrote: 2019-08-24 09:12pm
GrosseAdmiralFox wrote: 2019-08-24 09:09pm
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-08-24 02:50am I know you think the solution to authoritarianism is more authoritarianism, but I am skeptical that any amount of censorship could effectively keep Russian propaganda out. I think we'd get further by upping our own propaganda game, putting out an equally compelling counter-narrative.
Here's the thing, FOX News -and the resulting media bubble that it created- literally wouldn't have existed if the old 'Fair News' laws -which Reagan repealed explicitly so the GOP would have a propaganda machine- were still in force.

Give humans a little slack, they'll show you why you need to practically choke them on their choke chains.
Quality of outcome will depend on who holds said chain. Think it through.
Yeah. It is really, really baffling to see someone who claims to be anti-Trump arguing for giving the US government more media censorship powers, considering who's in power right now and how desperately he clearly wants those powers to censor his critics.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

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Re: Putin's campaign of assassination and terror, and the complicity of Western authorities.

Post by GrosseAdmiralFox »

Gandalf wrote: 2019-08-24 09:12pm Quality of outcome will depend on who holds said chain. Think it through.
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-08-24 09:24pm Yeah. It is really, really baffling to see someone who claims to be anti-Trump arguing for giving the US government more media censorship powers, considering who's in power right now and how desperately he clearly wants those powers to censor his critics.
Problem is that we have even more to lose by not inducing regulations. The Fairness Doctrine was enforced to prevent the sort of crap that FOX News has been pulling. That deregulation has now put us in this position.

People NEED rules, to protect them from each other and themselves.
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Re: Putin's campaign of assassination and terror, and the complicity of Western authorities.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

GrosseAdmiralFox wrote: 2019-08-24 09:55pm
Gandalf wrote: 2019-08-24 09:12pm Quality of outcome will depend on who holds said chain. Think it through.
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-08-24 09:24pm Yeah. It is really, really baffling to see someone who claims to be anti-Trump arguing for giving the US government more media censorship powers, considering who's in power right now and how desperately he clearly wants those powers to censor his critics.
Problem is that we have even more to lose by not inducing regulations. The Fairness Doctrine was enforced to prevent the sort of crap that FOX News has been pulling. That deregulation has now put us in this position.

People NEED rules, to protect them from each other and themselves.
I don't think anyone here is arguing for absolute deregulation (I stand corrected if there are any radical libertarians on this board who want to weigh in).

But the fact remains that if you give the current regime broader censorship powers, they will be used selectively, in favor of conservatives and to muzzle liberals. So that worst-case scenario, instead of Fox being part of the media, they'll basically BE the media.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Putin's campaign of assassination and terror, and the complicity of Western authorities.

Post by GrosseAdmiralFox »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-08-24 10:00pm
GrosseAdmiralFox wrote: 2019-08-24 09:55pm
Gandalf wrote: 2019-08-24 09:12pm Quality of outcome will depend on who holds said chain. Think it through.
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-08-24 09:24pm Yeah. It is really, really baffling to see someone who claims to be anti-Trump arguing for giving the US government more media censorship powers, considering who's in power right now and how desperately he clearly wants those powers to censor his critics.
Problem is that we have even more to lose by not inducing regulations. The Fairness Doctrine was enforced to prevent the sort of crap that FOX News has been pulling. That deregulation has now put us in this position.

People NEED rules, to protect them from each other and themselves.
I don't think anyone here is arguing for absolute deregulation (I stand corrected if there are any radical libertarians on this board who want to weigh in).

But the fact remains that if you give the current regime broader censorship powers, they will be used selectively, in favor of conservatives and to muzzle liberals. So that worst-case scenario, instead of Fox being part of the media, they'll basically BE the media.
I'm arguing in reinstating the Fairness Doctrine, permanently for one... and don't give me that "They'll use it" crap, using the system has been stymying Trump and the GOP, and their 'TRASH THE SYSTEM' BS is actually given them more problems (especially with the latest lawsuit having the high possibility that everyone that Trump fired via Tweet returning to their jobs, practically erasing a lot of their ability to trash shit).
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Re: Putin's campaign of assassination and terror, and the complicity of Western authorities.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

If all you are arguing for is the reinstatement of the Fairness Doctrine, that might be acceptable. But I think that you are being grossly complacent and overconfident about the likelihood of any future abuses by Trump being constrained, especially considering how far he has already been able to demolish democratic and legal norms. And the fact that any power to censor you grant the government is one that can also be used by future administrations against you is NOT something you can just casually handwave away because its inconvenient to your argument. Unless your goal is to establish a permanent majority by forcibly putting down all other views (in which case I would remind you that there are no permanent victories in history), then you will have to deal with the fact that any expansion of censorship powers is also power you are giving to your opponents.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Putin's campaign of assassination and terror, and the complicity of Western authorities.

Post by Gandalf »

Which modern American politicians could actually pass a new Fairness Doctrine, much less one that isn't an omnishambles?
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

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Re: Putin's campaign of assassination and terror, and the complicity of Western authorities.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Gandalf wrote: 2019-08-25 03:49am Which modern American politicians could actually pass a new Fairness Doctrine, much less one that isn't an omnishambles?
Any attempt to restrict Alt. Reich propagandizing would at best die a swift death the moment it reached Moscow Mitch's Senate. It would pass only if Republicans felt that they could use it to muzzle their opponents.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Putin's campaign of assassination and terror, and the complicity of Western authorities.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Article Six:

https://buzzfeednews.com/article/jasonl ... ogj559EwaV
Police File Exposes Holes In The Investigation Into US Death Of Putin’s Media Czar
The heavily redacted report reveals nothing about how RT founder Mikhail Lesin sustained the blunt force injuries that killed him. And the Washington, DC, police won’t say whether they reviewed three critical hours of hotel security footage between when Lesin was last seen alive and when he died.

BuzzFeed News
This is Part Six of a BuzzFeed News investigation.
Part One: Poison In The System
Part Two: From Russia With Blood
Part Three: The Man Who Knew Too Much
Part Four: The Secrets Of The Spy In The Bag
Part Five: Everyone Thinks He Was Whacked
Part Seven: Christopher Steele's Other Report

Newly released police files expose significant holes in the investigation into the death of Vladimir Putin’s media czar two years ago in Washington, DC, casting doubt on the official finding of how he died.

After Mikhail Lesin’s corpse was found in a Dupont Circle hotel room on the morning of Nov. 5, 2015, the coroner determined that he had died from blunt force injuries to the head, and had also sustained blunt force injuries to his neck, torso, upper extremities, and lower extremities. A federal prosecutor closed the case last year, announcing that Lesin died alone in his room due to a series of drunken falls “after days of excessive consumption of alcohol.”

Now, the Washington, DC, Metropolitan Police Department has released 58 pages of its case file on Lesin’s death. While many parts are blacked out, what was released raises sharp questions.

Nothing is said about the blunt force injuries that killed Lesin — or even about him falling down, which is how he is supposed to have died.

A disc of hotel security camera footage from the hallway outside Lesin’s room — including three critical hours during the period between when Lesin was last seen alive and when his dead body was found — was defective. Questioned by BuzzFeed News, the police department has repeatedly refused to say if it ever managed to review that footage, raising questions about whether Lesin truly died alone in his room.

The release of the police file comes as the West is grappling with Russia’s increasingly bold interventions. In a two-year investigation, BuzzFeed News showed how America’s closest ally, the UK, has turned a blind eye to 14 deaths on its own soil that US intelligence suspects were in fact hit jobs by the Russian state security services or mafia organizations, two groups that sometimes work together. US spy agencies have shared intelligence on each of those deaths with Britain, yet British police have ruled out foul play in every last case. US intelligence officials told BuzzFeed News they had been watching the pattern of suspected assassinations across the Atlantic with mounting unease, and Lesin’s death aggravated their fears.

BuzzFeed News has previously reported that three FBI agents and an intelligence officer said Lesin had in fact been bludgeoned to death, directly contradicting the official finding. Two of them said he died on the eve of a planned interview with officials from the Department of Justice, who wanted to learn about the inner workings of RT, the Russian state-funded news and propaganda network that Lesin founded.

DC’s Metropolitan Police Department released the case file earlier this week, following Freedom of Information Act requests from BuzzFeed News and other news organizations. The department’s homicide branch carried out the investigation, with assistance from the FBI. The investigation ran for 11 months.

The case file shows that Lesin, a known alcoholic, had been drinking heavily. The Washington Post, which first reported on the police files, recounts how Lesin brought copious amounts of alcohol into his rooms at the Four Seasons Hotel and later at the Dupont Circle Hotel, where his body was discovered. He carried in two bottles of red wine, a six-pack of Guinness, and a bottle of Johnnie Walker whiskey, the files show. His blood alcohol level was .15, almost twice the limit for driving. Liquor bottles, both empty and unopened, were found strewn about the room where he was found dead, and he had emptied the room’s mini fridge.

But the case file, which misstates dates and at least one address, also reveals key gaps in the investigation.

The unredacted parts of the file say nothing about the blunt force injuries that killed the Russian media titan, nor do they mention any of the falls that supposedly led to his death.

About a day and a half before Lesin was found dead, a hotel security officer talked with him and noticed a bruise below the Russian’s left eye, which is also visible on security camera footage. But an officer who reviewed hotel camera footage from the lobby noted that from the way Lesin walked, he “does not appear to be in any pain.” And just 21 hours before Lesin was found dead, two officers — it is unclear from the report if they were hotel security guards or police officers — visited him in his room and briefly spoke to him. Asked if they noticed any injuries on Lesin, one of the officers said they did not. (The report does not note the other officer’s response.)

The Metropolitan Police Department declined to answer questions about Lesin’s injuries or falls.

The unredacted parts of the police file say nothing about the blunt force injuries that killed the Russian media titan.
Another part of the report suggests that police might never have reviewed hotel surveillance footage that covered three critical hours between when Lesin was last seen alive and the time he was found dead, calling into question the finding that he died alone in his hotel room.

Lesin was staying in a penthouse suite on the ninth floor of the Dupont Circle Hotel. According to a timeline provided by the hotel to the police, Lesin was last seen alive at 8:17 p.m. on Nov. 4. At that time, police files say, a hotel security officer and another person entered Lesin’s hotel room and found him “lying on the carpet on the floor face down and passed out.” They noted that he was breathing. They failed to to wake him up and left the room.

Fifteen hours later, at 11:32 a.m. on Nov. 5, Lesin’s corpse was discovered, the police files say.

About two weeks later, on Nov. 19, a Metropolitan Police officer proceeded to review two discs containing security camera footage from the hotel’s ninth-floor hallway, which would show if Lesin left his room on that floor or if anyone entered the hall. The first disc contained footage going to 11:14 p.m., three hours later than the last live sighting of Lesin. But, the report says, “unfortunately there was a problem with the recording on the disc provided.”

So the officer reviewed footage from a second disc showing the ninth-floor hallway from 11:14 p.m. onward.

"Unfortunately there was a problem with the recording on the disc provided."

On Jan. 5, 2016, a different Metropolitan Police officer went to the department’s video surveillance unit, where, the files say, he was met by the person who “downloaded all of the footage from the cameras at the Dupont Hotel.” The officer writes that he “began to watch all of the footage,” but there is no mention of whether he watched the video from the defective disc or what it may have shown of that crucial period between when Lesin was last seen and when he was found dead.

When first asked about the defective disc, the Metropolitan Police Department sent BuzzFeed News to the Dupont Circle Hotel, which, in turn, directed comment back to the police. Pressed twice more by BuzzFeed News, the police department declined to say if it had reviewed the critical hours of footage. Finally, in a phone call on Friday, a spokesperson for the department said she had forwarded the question to the homicide branch, which had declined to comment.

The officers listed in the police files as attempting to watch the footage did not respond to phone and email messages.

The police files — which show that homicide detectives interviewed witnesses as late as August 2016, nine months after Lesin died — include other details. They say that Lesin paid for his room with $1,200 in cash, contradicting FBI agents who previously told BuzzFeed News that the Justice Department had paid for the room. Reached again, the FBI agents, who spoke on condition of anonymity, continued to maintain that the Justice Department had paid for Lesin’s room. The Justice Department did not respond to requests for comment.

Finally, a timeline prepared by the Four Seasons Hotel for the police states that the day before Lesin was found dead, the Secret Service asked for a hotel security officer to be placed outside his room from 1:45 a.m. to 2:30 a.m. so that Lesin “does not leave the room.”

Lesin was not a member of the Russian government at that time, so it is unclear why the US government’s elite security force — which protects the president, vice president, and foreign dignitaries — would have intervened to have him watched. Mason Brayman, a Secret Service spokesperson, did not respond to questions about why the Secret Service apparently offered guidance to hotel security but told BuzzFeed News that Lesin “has never been a protectee of the US Secret Service.”

Liliana Baldasssari, a spokesperson for the Four Seasons, told BuzzFeed News that hotel security contacted a Secret Service agent who was on site protecting a delegation due to arrive. "We did not want this guest wandering around the hotel causing problems when the delegation arrived," Baldasssari said. She declined to identify the delegation, citing privacy, but said once the delegation got to their rooms, the hotel security guard posted outside of Lesin's room was removed. ●
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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