Male Chinese ‘Relatives’ Assigned to Uyghur Homes Co-sleep With Female ‘Hosts’

[Ralin]

At the same time, litigating the rape element is a distraction from the clear underlying point. The Chinese government is so totalitarian in its ambitions to suppress the Uyghur people that they'll literally turn your house into occupied territory in addition to mass internment into re-education camps. How far from decency are we were saying that they're merely forcing into camps and putting men into homes is a defended on the grounds that they aren't mass murdering and raping. The conducted admitted is quite bad enough on its own.

Not at all. Separatism and fundamentalist Islam are dangerous and harmful influences that need to be stamped out. An effective way to do so is to build bridges between ethnic Uyghurs and other Chinese people. It's harder to be radicalized against people you've learned to see as neighbors and friends.

[Elheru Aran]

At the same time, litigating the rape element is a distraction from the clear underlying point. The Chinese government is so totalitarian in its ambitions to suppress the Uyghur people that they'll literally turn your house into occupied territory in addition to mass internment into re-education camps. How far from decency are we were saying that they're merely forcing into camps and putting men into homes is a defended on the grounds that they aren't mass murdering and raping. The conducted admitted is quite bad enough on its own.

Not at all. Separatism and fundamentalist Islam are dangerous and harmful influences that need to be stamped out. An effective way to do so is to build bridges between ethnic Uyghurs and other Chinese people. It's harder to be radicalized against people you've learned to see as neighbors and friends.

...so the correct way to do that is imprisoning men and forcing their families to accept strangers in their house on the regular?

#okaythen

[Coop D'etat]

At the same time, litigating the rape element is a distraction from the clear underlying point. The Chinese government is so totalitarian in its ambitions to suppress the Uyghur people that they'll literally turn your house into occupied territory in addition to mass internment into re-education camps. How far from decency are we were saying that they're merely forcing into camps and putting men into homes is a defended on the grounds that they aren't mass murdering and raping. The conducted admitted is quite bad enough on its own.

Not at all. Separatism and fundamentalist Islam are dangerous and harmful influences that need to be stamped out. An effective way to do so is to build bridges between ethnic Uyghurs and other Chinese people. It's harder to be radicalized against people you've learned to see as neighbors and friends.

That's a fantastic rhetotical sleight of hand you're employing.

Regardless of the merits of the goals, the means are oppressive to the extreme. Think of how badly off you'd be if your government defined your apologia for the Chinese government to be a pernicious social ill that demanded imprisonment to correct. This is about what the state feels entitled to do to you in the name of moving your life like a chess piece towards its goals.

Secondly, it doesn't take much to re-define what you're calling separatism and fundamentalist Islam into being anti-colonialism and free practice of religion in this case. If the people in these regions have sufficient distaste for the Chinese government to seriously want to separate, that isn't a good excuse for regime repression, that's another indictment against the legitimacy of their rule.

[Straha]

At the same time, litigating the rape element is a distraction from the clear underlying point. The Chinese government is so totalitarian in its ambitions to suppress the Uyghur people that they'll literally turn your house into occupied territory in addition to mass internment into re-education camps. How far from decency are we were saying that they're merely forcing into camps and putting men into homes is a defended on the grounds that they aren't mass murdering and raping. The conducted admitted is quite bad enough on its own.

Not at all. Separatism and fundamentalist Islam are dangerous and harmful influences that need to be stamped out. An effective way to do so is to build bridges between ethnic Uyghurs and other Chinese people. It's harder to be radicalized against people you've learned to see as neighbors and friends.

Rape builds bridges and lets you teach people to see you as a neighbor. Good to know.

[Avrjoe]

It is not as if this were occuring in a vacuum either. You start to get a clear image of a pattern of behavior only limited by the expected damage to the reputation of China. The Chinese government has interfered with the succession of the Dalai Lama. The world has not leveled a punishment they were unwilling to pay in trade for erasing Tibetan culture.

They have “edited” the allowed tenets of christianity. They then subverted houses of worship into becoming clearinghouses for party propaganda.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... tion-bible

Like most oppressive governments it is game of “boiling the frog” you get away with as much as you can for a long as you can. If caught you retreat a little and hold on to the greater mass of whichever gains you sought. The tactic is duplicated by regimes of all professed political ideologies. It’s not the Ideology that produces the monster. These monsters are created by greed. A raw unbridled desire for power and the feeling that they can treat people as if they were commodities.

[aerius]

Not at all. Separatism and fundamentalist Islam are dangerous and harmful influences that need to be stamped out. An effective way to do so is to build bridges between ethnic Uyghurs and other Chinese people. It's harder to be radicalized against people you've learned to see as neighbors and friends.

Rape builds bridges and lets you teach people to see you as a neighbor. Good to know.

Where does this rank on a scale of 1 to Shep Solution?
Seriously, this is literally straight out of a Tom Kratman novel. I got no words.

[Alyrium Denryle]

At the same time, litigating the rape element is a distraction from the clear underlying point. The Chinese government is so totalitarian in its ambitions to suppress the Uyghur people that they'll literally turn your house into occupied territory in addition to mass internment into re-education camps. How far from decency are we were saying that they're merely forcing into camps and putting men into homes is a defended on the grounds that they aren't mass murdering and raping. The conducted admitted is quite bad enough on its own.

Not at all. Separatism and fundamentalist Islam are dangerous and harmful influences that need to be stamped out. An effective way to do so is to build bridges between ethnic Uyghurs and other Chinese people. It's harder to be radicalized against people you've learned to see as neighbors and friends.

Are you even a person? Okay. Let's stipulate that there is no rape.

They've still arbitrarily arrested hundreds of thousands if not millions of people, and put them into re-education camps. They have then forcibly quartered party officials in people's homes to spy on them constantly and "build bridges".

These are actual brain-washing techniques. How the fuck is ethnic separatism worse than that? Why the hell shouldn't a historically oppressed group of people want to *gasp* rule themselves?

But you'll apparently apologize for any totalitarian measure you come across.

[Straha]

Not at all. Separatism and fundamentalist Islam are dangerous and harmful influences that need to be stamped out. An effective way to do so is to build bridges between ethnic Uyghurs and other Chinese people. It's harder to be radicalized against people you've learned to see as neighbors and friends.

Rape builds bridges and lets you teach people to see you as a neighbor. Good to know.

Where does this rank on a scale of 1 to Shep Solution?
Seriously, this is literally straight out of a Tom Kratman novel. I got no words.

Shep Solution is simply mass killing under (technically) the rules of war. This is straight up ethnic cleansing. We need a new scale.

[ray245]

Are you even a person? Okay. Let's stipulate that there is no rape.

They've still arbitrarily arrested hundreds of thousands if not millions of people, and put them into re-education camps. They have then forcibly quartered party officials in people's homes to spy on them constantly and "build bridges".

These are actual brain-washing techniques. How the fuck is ethnic separatism worse than that? Why the hell shouldn't a historically oppressed group of people want to *gasp* rule themselves?

But you'll apparently apologize for any totalitarian measure you come across.

If you are someone who see ethnic separatism as leading directly onto fundamentalism, then you are likely to be someone who see any attempts at "building bridges" to be fundamentally better than the alternative.

While the argument that ethnic separatism as leading directly onto fundamentalism is tenacious in my view, it's really hard to say of too many examples in which ethnic separatism has led to a good outcome in the long run.

[Ralin]

That's a fantastic rhetotical sleight of hand you're employing.

Nah. Rhetorical sleight of hand is spending a page decrying the horrible mass genocide rape that the Chinese are supposedly carrying out and then turning around and handwaving it after having holes poked in the idea and it being pointed out that even the article in the OP never claimed that was happening.

Regardless of the merits of the goals, the means are oppressive to the extreme. Think of how badly off you'd be if your government defined your apologia for the Chinese government to be a pernicious social ill that demanded imprisonment to correct. This is about what the state feels entitled to do to you in the name of moving your life like a chess piece towards its goals.

No they aren’t, because ethnic Uyghur Chinese citizens don’t benefit from letting fundamentalist-style Islam take root in their communities or ones around them. Having to deal with bridge-building and education campaigns like this can be intrusive. Having to deal with the prospect of an Islamic fundamentalist style shadow government or militias springing up because the government failed to address the problem…well shit, we’ve all heard enough horror stories about ISIS and other groups like them.

Secondly, it doesn't take much to re-define what you're calling separatism and fundamentalist Islam into being anti-colonialism and free practice of religion in this case. If the people in these regions have sufficient distaste for the Chinese government to seriously want to separate, that isn't a good excuse for regime repression, that's another indictment against the legitimacy of their rule.

You can play all sorts of word games if you want to, but given that Xinjiang province is a part of China and its people are Chinese citizens (who are being helped by programs like these!) any accusations of colonialism fall flat. Under the Chinese constitution people are guaranteed freedom of religious belief. This does not extend to freedom of religious practice, which can and should be curtailed when it harms the well-being of others. The fact that bad elements can get some part of the population to go along with fundamentalist ideas doesn’t reflect on the desires of the Uyghur people as a whole much less the legitimacy of their government, anymore than the existence of neo-Confederates in the US is an ‘indictment’ of American rule.

Are you even a person? Okay. Let's stipulate that there is no rape.

Yes. Let’s pretend you and others weren’t straight up accusing Chinese men of mass rape on the last page right up until Ray and I called bullshit on it and called for someone to back the innuendo up with actual proof. Are you for real?

They've still arbitrarily arrested hundreds of thousands if not millions of people, and put them into re-education camps.

Is ‘arbitrarily’ code for ‘the Chinese government did it?’ Because the government has very specifically set out to temporarily (people are released from these camps once they’ve been judged ready to be reintegrated) detain people because they showed signs being at risk of radicalization. Doing so randomly wouldn’t serve that purpose.

They have then forcibly quartered party officials in people's homes to spy on them constantly and "build bridges".

These are actual brain-washing techniques.

Nowadays we call that multicultural awareness.

How the fuck is ethnic separatism worse than that?

Because fostering a harmonious and secular society makes for a better life, whereas ethnic separatism is harmful and leads to war and terrorism.

Why the hell shouldn't a historically oppressed group of people want to *gasp* rule themselves?

They already do. Through the government of the People’s Republic of China.

Rape builds bridges and lets you teach people to see you as a neighbor. Good to know.

So yeah, if you want to accuse the Chinese men taking part in these programs of mass rape make with the proof instead of lurid "I'm SURE none of them are taking advantage!" innuendo. Because even the article from US State Department backed propaganda group didn't claim that's happening.

[madd0ct0r]

You are a moron Ralin.

Try harder. There are plenty of examples of large devout ethicnic minorities coexisting fine.

1) jews in america
2) Pakistani muslims in uk (and hindus and sikhs)
3) catholics in Vietnam

Want me to go on?

As such the rest of your argument unravels. Even so:

"given that Xinjiang province is a part of China and its people are Chinese citizens (who are being helped by programs like these!)"

"Because fostering a harmonious and secular society makes for a better life, whereas ethnic separatism is harmful and leads to war and terrorism."

If you are born into a muslim family in that province, how is this program helping you?
Is this policy of crushing uighyr identity itself not aggressive ethnic seperatisim? Is the result likely to be more or less integration of the jailed people or bitter families?
Do you think they will be grateful or just replaced with more Han as happened in Tibet?

Question. If an area like Scotland vote for independence, should that vote be respected?

[Ziggy Stardust]

For fuck's sake, we have decades or more of evidence that mass incarceration, repression, and diaspora are PRECISELY the conditions that BREED extremism. You have to be incredibly stupid to think that somehow China is going to do it right this time and everyone will come out of it happy and non-resentful. All this is going to do is create terrorist groups operating out of the various Central Asian states (which is part of why China is working with Russia to expand their influence in that region).

Also, Ralin and mr friendly guy, could you actually provide some examples of news sources that you wouldn't dismiss out of hand? I'm not saying your arguments about Radio Free Asia aren't valid (they certainly are), but in other threads like this it seems like you have a tendency to just dismiss things as being "Western propaganda" without really providing any alternative. And for the love of God, please don't start screeching about burden of proof bullshit, that's not what this is about, this is just a request for a little good faith on your parts. The fact is that there are very very few news sources that actual report on events in Xinjiang, due to the degree to which PRC has made it difficult for any news to come out of that region. I just spent forty-five minutes or so searching and I couldn't find anything that didn't ultimately lead back to either Radio Free Asia or the China Daily, neither of which can exactly be portrayed as an unbiased news source. If you can't provide some examples of agencies reporting on Xinjiang that you consider suitably unbiased than there basically isn't any point having these discussions at all anymore, because then we are all stuck just dismissing propaganda outlets as being unreliable and not having any real evidence to go on, so the threads just devolve into gibberish.

[ray245]

Question. If an area like Scotland vote for independence, should that vote be respected?

I think a more apt comparison will be Catalonia separatism movement, one which did not gain much support from the Western world as a whole.

[ray245]

For fuck's sake, we have decades or more of evidence that mass incarceration, repression, and diaspora are PRECISELY the conditions that BREED extremism. You have to be incredibly stupid to think that somehow China is going to do it right this time and everyone will come out of it happy and non-resentful. All this is going to do is create terrorist groups operating out of the various Central Asian states (which is part of why China is working with Russia to expand their influence in that region).

Also, Ralin and mr friendly guy, could you actually provide some examples of news sources that you wouldn't dismiss out of hand? I'm not saying your arguments about Radio Free Asia aren't valid (they certainly are), but in other threads like this it seems like you have a tendency to just dismiss things as being "Western propaganda" without really providing any alternative. And for the love of God, please don't start screeching about burden of proof bullshit, that's not what this is about, this is just a request for a little good faith on your parts. The fact is that there are very very few news sources that actual report on events in Xinjiang, due to the degree to which PRC has made it difficult for any news to come out of that region. I just spent forty-five minutes or so searching and I couldn't find anything that didn't ultimately lead back to either Radio Free Asia or the China Daily, neither of which can exactly be portrayed as an unbiased news source. If you can't provide some examples of agencies reporting on Xinjiang that you consider suitably unbiased than there basically isn't any point having these discussions at all anymore, because then we are all stuck just dismissing propaganda outlets as being unreliable and not having any real evidence to go on, so the threads just devolve into gibberish.

Read Japanese, Korean or Taiwanese sources. Those are generally less influenced by Chinese political control, while having reporters that can at the very least read Chinese characters.

Take Japantimes for instance, where journalists interviewed the Uighur diaspora in Japan to find out what is going on in Xinjiang. Those are well investigated articles on what is going on without having to rely on some western news sources that simply don't have as much quality control when it comes to any topic on China.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/ ... csZi1f7RPZ

[madd0ct0r]

Question. If an area like Scotland vote for independence, should that vote be respected?

I think a more apt comparison will be Catalonia separatism movement, one which did not gain much support from the Western world as a whole.

Although i dont recall approval of Spanish actions either. "Use force of argument not arhument of force" to paraphrase tusk.

Catalonia vs Scotland is certainly a good example of how effective strong policing and jail is at stamping out a seperatist movement. Its totally calm and peaceful in Barcelona now, while Scotland is a land of violent rebellion.

[ray245]

Although i dont recall approval of Spanish actions either. "Use force of argument not arhument of force" to paraphrase tusk.

No, but note the relative reluctance of most Western leaders to back the Catalonians. The narrative crafted by the Spanish government of viewing the separatists as criminals isn't really challenged by European leaders and a number of news outlets.

Catalonia vs Scotland is certainly a good example of how effective strong policing and jail is at stamping out a seperatist movement. Its totally calm and peaceful in Barcelona now, while Scotland is a land of violent rebellion.

I'm not saying what the Spanish did was the right course of action, but simply bringing it up as a case of Western leadership being more reluctant to condemn what the Spanish did in Barcelona, while being more proactive in condemning separatist movement in China. The issue of which independence movement ought to be seen as legitimate, and which independence movement ought to drop to the backstage ( Kurdish independence) is very often more of a matter of foreign policy and political interest than an genuine effort in supporting independence movements around the world.

The issue of independence movement in geo-politics is still a cold-war era game to be played. One does not have to support the Chinese government's actions in order to critique the idea of how Independence movements around the world is framed differently by western media.

[madd0ct0r]

Mmm.

I think there is rhetorical play here.

I started by asking person to person about the idea of agency of determination of state/nation.
Ie do you think a scottish vote should be respected?

You are suggesting that the personal position is irrelevant as it is the decisions/actions of leaders of existing states / proto-states that determine the on the ground result, not an ideal of agency? Realpolitik trumps all?

And then there you make a second step to talk/critique how the media frames the realpolitik to flatter allies and condemn rivals?
The implication there is that china bashing would occur irregardless of conduct.

All of which i agree with, but dont really see the relevance. I personally, still want to know wether ralin subscribes to a idealised right to political determination and what reasons they can muster to support their position.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Read Japanese, Korean or Taiwanese sources. Those are generally less influenced by Chinese political control, while having reporters that can at the very least read Chinese characters.

Take Japantimes for instance, where journalists interviewed the Uighur diaspora in Japan to find out what is going on in Xinjiang. Those are well investigated articles on what is going on without having to rely on some western news sources that simply don't have as much quality control when it comes to any topic on China.

Much obliged.

[ray245]

Mmm.

I think there is rhetorical play here.

I started by asking person to person about the idea of agency of determination of state/nation.
Ie do you think a scottish vote should be respected?

You are suggesting that the personal position is irrelevant as it is the decisions/actions of leaders of existing states / proto-states that determine the on the ground result, not an ideal of agency? Realpolitik trumps all?

I think the issue of right of self-determination is intertwined with realpolitk that any representation of any independence movement in any media cannot be viewed as being "neutral" in any way. Whether people have the right to do so is often less important than the strategic implication of representing certain independence movement as "legitimate" or "illegitimate".

Whether I think a Scottish vote for independence should be respected is less important than how it is being represented. I think it should be respected, but whether I think it should be respected is not as important as how people arrive at a decision to see whether that movement was legitimate or not.

And then there you make a second step to talk/critique how the media frames the realpolitik to flatter allies and condemn rivals?
The implication there is that china bashing would occur irregardless of conduct.

Of course. I see the root of China bashing not from an outright sense of moral injustice, but whether China represent a geo-political threat to the existing order. As someone from Singapore, I certainly do not like the way China is attempting to craft a Chinese-led global order, but I am also well aware that many of the discussion surrounding China is rooted in geo-political interest.

The human rights issue in India is often downplayed in western media precisely because India does not represent a direct threat to western hegemonic interest.

It is possible for us to acknowledge both the fact that China is not doing the right course of action with regards to the Uighurs while at the same time pointing out that the reason why media tend to report on the Uighurs more often than the Kashmir issue is a matter of geo-political interest as well as special interest groups that can influence Western politics.

For example, Labour in the UK decides to be silent on the issue of Kashmir because they are afraid of losing votes in the upcoming GE.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... age-voters

All of which i agree with, but dont really see the relevance. I personally, still want to know wether ralin subscribes to a idealised right to political determination and what reasons they can muster to support their position.

My point is that one should not discuss the right to political determination in an isolated and idealised context. The right to do so has always been embedded in an global, realpolitik framework. The right exist only when it suit the benefits of certain superpowers to do so. It suited the US and Soviet Union after WW2 because they want to break up the monopolistic imperial state system of the European powers, and not necessarily because they are doing it for some altruistic reasons.

[Broomstick]

It is not as if this were occuring in a vacuum either. You start to get a clear image of a pattern of behavior only limited by the expected damage to the reputation of China. The Chinese government has interfered with the succession of the Dalai Lama. The world has not leveled a punishment they were unwilling to pay in trade for erasing Tibetan culture.

Given the way the common people in Tibet were treated by the old system run by the monasteries I'm not entirely convinced deposing religious dictators was entirely bad. There is at least one old thread on this forum discussing it in detail.

Let's just say that raising the average Tibetan UP to third world standards was a significant improvement in their lot.

So maybe use different examples. Because personally I'd rather live under China's current system with all its flaws than under the old regime of the monks in Tibet. (Not that I'd live in either by choice, that's just if I had to choose between the two of them.)

[mr friendly guy]

For fuck's sake, we have decades or more of evidence that mass incarceration, repression, and diaspora are PRECISELY the conditions that BREED extremism. You have to be incredibly stupid to think that somehow China is going to do it right this time and everyone will come out of it happy and non-resentful. All this is going to do is create terrorist groups operating out of the various Central Asian states (which is part of why China is working with Russia to expand their influence in that region).

Also, Ralin and mr friendly guy, could you actually provide some examples of news sources that you wouldn't dismiss out of hand? I'm not saying your arguments about Radio Free Asia aren't valid (they certainly are), but in other threads like this it seems like you have a tendency to just dismiss things as being "Western propaganda" without really providing any alternative. And for the love of God, please don't start screeching about burden of proof bullshit, that's not what this is about, this is just a request for a little good faith on your parts. The fact is that there are very very few news sources that actual report on events in Xinjiang, due to the degree to which PRC has made it difficult for any news to come out of that region. I just spent forty-five minutes or so searching and I couldn't find anything that didn't ultimately lead back to either Radio Free Asia or the China Daily, neither of which can exactly be portrayed as an unbiased news source. If you can't provide some examples of agencies reporting on Xinjiang that you consider suitably unbiased than there basically isn't any point having these discussions at all anymore, because then we are all stuck just dismissing propaganda outlets as being unreliable and not having any real evidence to go on, so the threads just devolve into gibberish.

I get information from the Diplomat and Foreign policy, although you only get a free number of articles per month unless you subscribe (I don't, I just use their free articles and adjust my cookies if I need to read more), but over the years those sources add nuggets of information I wouldn't find elsewhere. They also do allow Op Eds from people who are China friendly. They do talk about Xinjiang over the years.

Another source less filtered through Western lens, would be Singaporean news. I have used them on China stories, although I don't recall any specifically on Xinjiang.

If you want books, there is Under the Heel of the Dragon by Blaine Kaltman, which as you can tell from the title isn't actually China friendly. He does however make attempts to interview Uyghurs who have moved into the bigger cities of China ie away from Xinjiang and sees how they well or poorly they integrate. The book is a bit dated, since its over 10 years old.

Another one is Invisible China : A journey through ethnic borderlands by Colin Legerton and Jacob Rawson. Again bit dated possibly since its 10 years old, but it does have a section on ethnic minorities living in Xinjiang, not just the Uyghurs. Again not exactly China friendly, but they do seem to make an effort to be fair.

A documentary you might find interesting about Uyghurs and what happens when they try and migrate to other parts of China is "The trail from Xinjiang." Made in 2012 by a private Chinese filmmaker. Not specifically about the Chinese government's policy Xinjiang, but it does showcase the problems of poverty and crime among uyghurs.

[Ziggy Stardust]

I get information from the Diplomat and Foreign policy, although you only get a free number of articles per month unless you subscribe (I don't, I just use their free articles and adjust my cookies if I need to read more), but over the years those sources add nuggets of information I wouldn't find elsewhere. They also do allow Op Eds from people who are China friendly. They do talk about Xinjiang over the years.

Another source less filtered through Western lens, would be Singaporean news. I have used them on China stories, although I don't recall any specifically on Xinjiang.

If you want books, there is Under the Heel of the Dragon by Blaine Kaltman, which as you can tell from the title isn't actually China friendly. He does however make attempts to interview Uyghurs who have moved into the bigger cities of China ie away from Xinjiang and sees how they well or poorly they integrate. The book is a bit dated, since its over 10 years old.

Another one is Invisible China : A journey through ethnic borderlands by Colin Legerton and Jacob Rawson. Again bit dated possibly since its 10 years old, but it does have a section on ethnic minorities living in Xinjiang, not just the Uyghurs. Again not exactly China friendly, but they do seem to make an effort to be fair.

A documentary you might find interesting about Uyghurs and what happens when they try and migrate to other parts of China is "The trail from Xinjiang." Made in 2012 by a private Chinese filmmaker. Not specifically about the Chinese government's policy Xinjiang, but it does showcase the problems of poverty and crime among uyghurs.

Thanks!

[The Romulan Republic]

This is getting to the point where I honestly think that if he's not prepared to start debating honestly, Ralin should be banned for racism/genocide apologism.

Especially in light of the fact that we know he'd be condemning this as loudly as possible and calling everyone who disagreed with him a racist if America did something like this. Which, honestly, he'd be right to do. Its just the utterly shameless double-standard that's so galling.

[ray245]

This is getting to the point where I honestly think that if he's not prepared to start debating honestly, Ralin should be banned for racism/genocide apologism.

Especially in light of the fact that we know he'd be condemning this as loudly as possible and calling everyone who disagreed with him a racist if America did something like this. Which, honestly, he'd be right to do. Its just the utterly shameless double-standard that's so galling.

Just because Ralin is being apologetic about the actions of the Chinese government does not mean he is entirely wrong that certain members do view the whole Chinese issue through a orientalist lens.

If your thought about being accused for having a racist viewpoint is to deny it outright ( rather than trying to reconsider a little how you might do things a little differently), then I don't think one should have a high opinion of you as a person.

Being racist is not merely about saying outright racist views and words, but also how you frame certain issues.

[The Romulan Republic]

This is getting to the point where I honestly think that if he's not prepared to start debating honestly, Ralin should be banned for racism/genocide apologism.

Especially in light of the fact that we know he'd be condemning this as loudly as possible and calling everyone who disagreed with him a racist if America did something like this. Which, honestly, he'd be right to do. Its just the utterly shameless double-standard that's so galling.

Just because Ralin is being apologetic about the actions of the Chinese government does not mean he is entirely wrong that certain members do view the whole Chinese issue through a orientalist lens.

If your thought about being accused for having a racist viewpoint is to deny it outright ( rather than trying to reconsider a little how you might do things a little differently), then I don't think one should have a high opinion of you as a person.

Being racist is not merely about saying outright racist views and words, but also how you frame certain issues.

Ah, so you're going to try to turn this around to "TRR is the REAL racist". Of course.

I think just about everyone is capable of being racist (often unintentionally) because it is so deeply-ingrained in our society. I am no exception to that. But its also pretty fucking rich being accused of being a racist because I criticized a poster who is literally defending textbook ethnic cleansing. Say what you will about me, I have never attempted to defend the deliberate, systematic destruction of a religious or ethnic group.

Take what Ralin is saying, and replace the word "Uyghur" with "Jew", "black", or "Latino", and tell me what the response would be on this board.

Reporting Ralin for racism and genocide apologism.