Worst Mass Shooting in Canadian History

[MKSheppard]

LOLOL:

The Canadian Shooting Sports Association and the Canadian Sporting Arms and Ammunition Association demand the immediate withdrawal of the Liberal's flawed Order in Council.

May 5, 2020

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and Minister Bill Blair looked Canadian gun owners in the eye last Friday and said they would not take guns suitable for hunting away from us.

Mr. Blair is either too inept to comprehend the scope of his new regulations...or he lied to the Government and Canadians.

In the legal opinion of our firearms team - headed by Edward Burlew L.L.B., one of the foremost experts in Canadian firearms law - Bill Blair banned almost every modern 12-gauge and 10-gauge shotgun in Canada with removable chokes because they exceed the maximum bore diameter of 20 mm as defined in SOR/2020-96.

Canada's firearms industry body, the CSAAA, advises retailers to cease sales of many 12-gauge or larger shotguns with removable chokes."

It is estimated there are 1.5 - 2 million of the common hunting firearms in Canada.

As well, many large bore hunting rifles - some over 100 years old and valued over $100,000 have become prohibited. None of these firearms are semi-automatic or "military style." They encompass common bolt-action rifles such as the .460 Weatherby, break-open single and double rifles. These firearms are captured because the powerful cartridges they shoot - designed to humanely dispatch the largest game animals. PURE hunting rifles.

CSAAA also advises retailers to stop sales of "large hunting calibre, non semi-automatic rifles such as the Weatherby Mark V .460 as these rifles exceed the 10,000 Joules energy restriction.

Despite open hunting seasons across much of Canada, lawful firearms owners should refrain from using 12-gauge or larger shotguns with removable chokes or large calibre rifles capable of exceeding the government's energy ceiling.

These firearms are PROHIBITED and may not be used or transported for any reason.

Intentional lies or incompetent mistakes? You decide.

The Canadian Shooting Sports Association (CSSA) and the Canadian Sporting Arms and Ammunition Association (CSAAA) demand the immediate withdrawal of the Liberal's flawed Order in Council and the resignation of Public Safety Minister, Bill Blair.

Legal Opinion on Shotguns

[madd0ct0r]

Are Canadaians plauged by herds of mammoth?
Or is the discussion of elephant guns and museum wall hangers a complete red herring?


On lesser deer fuckers...
Can a 12 gauge with removalable choke be modified such that choke is permanently fixed without rendering the gun unmaintainable?

Is there a study looking at the energy required to fell a moose? Is there any data out thereon what people hunt in Canada? I'd guess ducks and deer more then some thing that might fight back.

[The Romulan Republic]

Are Canadaians plauged by herds of mammoth?
Or is the discussion of elephant guns and museum wall hangers a complete red herring?


On lesser deer fuckers...
Can a 12 gauge with removalable choke be modified such that choke is permanently fixed without rendering the gun unmaintainable?

Is there a study looking at the energy required to fell a moose? Is there any data out thereon what people hunt in Canada? I'd guess ducks and deer more then some thing that might fight back.

Some folks hunt bear, I know (or might be in places where they feel the need to defend themselves against bears). Its certainly not an issue for the vast majority of Canadians, but for some it might be.

[Elheru Aran]

Off my cuff: moose are very large animals and you do require pretty decent firepower to put one down quickly. Bears are probably less of an issue in most of Canada but once you get up into the frontier they're there. The rest of Canadian game, elk aside, aren't exceptional, and you can kill an elk with a deer rifle if you're aiming accurately.

[MKSheppard]

Or is the discussion of elephant guns and museum wall hangers a complete red herring?

It's actually pretty legit discussion, considering how poorly thought out (as usual for gun control bills) the OIC was.

Several actual "assault weapons" weren't banned by this.

[The Romulan Republic]

Off my cuff: moose are very large animals and you do require pretty decent firepower to put one down quickly. Bears are probably less of an issue in most of Canada but once you get up into the frontier they're there. The rest of Canadian game, elk aside, aren't exceptional, and you can kill an elk with a deer rifle if you're aiming accurately.

The other exception that might apply, though it would be very rare and again apply to indigenous groups only, would be whale hunts. First Nations groups in Canada IIRC are allowed to conduct whale hunts for purposes of tradition and subsistence. Not sure what weapons are typically used, but there's a case of an illegal hunt in Washington State employing a 50 cal machine gun to kill a whale:

https://cbsnews.com/news/a-50-caliber-g ... e-hunting/

[MKSheppard]

Linkypoo

'Incoherent' Liberal firearm ban excludes several semi-automatics, potentially outlaws big-game hunting rifles

'Minister Blair is either too inept to comprehend the scope of his regulations… or he lied to the government and Canadians,' a sporting arms association said

OTTAWA — The Liberal government’s “incoherent” firearm ban excludes several rifles that are nearly identical to the so-called “military-style” firearms that Ottawa intends to outlaw, gun retailers say.

The ban, announced late last week, does not include the Chinese-made Norinco Type 97, for example, a semi-automatic version of the standard-issued rifles used by the People’s Liberation Army of China. Nor does it include the Russian-designed SKS rifle, the precursor to the popular AK-47; the Israeli-made Tavor .223, a semi-automatic rifle developed with the aid of the Israeli Defense Force, or the Canadian-made WK180-C, which gun publication CalibreMag said “functions much like an AR-15”, a firearm Justin Trudeau was at pains to highlight.

Meanwhile, the list bans a number of bolt-action hunting rifles used for large game. Some retailers worry the restrictions could also extend to accessorized shotguns used in bird hunts, due to broad language used in the regulations. A spokesperson for Public Safety Minister Bill Blair on Tuesday said the ban would not include shotguns, and was preparing an official statement on the matter as the National Post went to press.

Blair last week banned eleven broadly-defined firearm models, encompassing roughly 1,500 individual firearm variations. The prime minister justified the decision by saying that all firearms included under the ban were designed with an explicit purpose to “kill the largest amount of people in the shortest amount of time.”

“You don’t need an AR-15 to bring down a deer,” Trudeau said.

But retailers and distributors say the prohibition list appears to have been hastily assembled, arbitrarily excluding or including firearms while leaving Canadian companies stuck with millions in unusable inventory. An industry association is now calling on Ottawa to reimburse those firms by as much as $1.1 billion and clarify the apparent discrepancies.

“Minister Blair is either too inept to comprehend the scope of his regulations… or he lied to the government and Canadians,” the Canadian Sporting Arms and Ammunition Association (CSAAA) said in a statement on Tuesday.

Alison de Groot, the managing director at the CSAAA, said some manufacturers are preparing to push back against the regulations, saying they prohibit certain firearms while allowing their competitors — often based in foreign countries — to continue selling in Canada.

“I’m sure they’re going to launch some kind of protest because their firearms are on the list while other firearms with very similar characteristics are not on the list,” she said.

“The list was incoherent.”

The organization is now in regular calls with federal officials in an effort to hammer out various points of confusion. In a phone call last Friday with the federal departments of Public Safety, Global Affairs Canada and others, de Groot said officials were unable to answer technical questions like how shipments of now-prohibited firearms would be handled by authorities.

One distributor, for example, was unsure whether authorities would intercept an incoming shipment that bundled legal firearms together with those that are now illegal. Officials were scrambling for answers in what appeared to be a hasty regulatory change that came as a surprise to both government and retailers.

“They assumed that the shipments would come in separately because they did not understand how the import certificates work,” de Groot said.

“It was quite clear to us that those departments did not know this (ban) was coming, either.”

A spokesperson for Blair said certain semi-automatic rifles were not included in the ban because they did not meet certain thresholds — primarily that they are not considered to be of “modern design” and are not “present in large volumes in the Canadian market,” according to the regulations.

The Tavor .223 is a contemporary-style gun considered to be a modern take on the AR class of firearms, while the Chinese Type 97 has been sold at Cabella’s Canada outdoors box store, among other retailers across Canada.

Manufacturers, distributors and retailers are now preparing to sort through huge volumes of inventory that can no longer be sold.

“I’m stuck with hundreds of thousands of dollars in parts, accessories and firearms that have been made prohibited with the stroke of a pen,” said Matthew Hipwell, president of Manitoba-based retailer Wolverine Supplies.

His initial estimates suggest as much as 25 to 40 per cent of his revenues will be evaporated by the ban.

Many retailers pointed to inconsistencies in the prohibition list. The Liberal ban outlawed the Accuracy International AX, a large-game hunting rifle whose highest calibre comes in .338, which falls below the regulatory threshold prescribed in the Order in Council, according to several people. The new regulations outlaw any firearm with a muzzle energy greater than 10,000 joules.

Meanwhile, some hunting rifles below the .50 calibre, like the Weatherby Mark V .460, have a muzzle energy higher than 10,000 joules, but are not included on the list of banned firearms.

Indigenous people who use .50 calibre rifles to hunt big game will be allowed to continue using the firearms for a two-year period, after which they will have to surrender them, according to a spokesperson for Justice Minister David Lametti. Exemptions from the ban could also be extended to people, both Indigenous and non-Indigenous, who depend on the firearms to sustain their families.

A review of the prohibition list by the CSAAA, led by law firm Edward Burlew, suggested it could include 10-gauge and 12-gauge shotguns equipped with removable chokes, based on new regulations that ban any gun bore that is 20mm or wider. Removable chokes are accessories added to the end of the barrel that widen or narrow a shotgun’s spread.

A spokesperson for Blair said those guns would not be banned under the new regulations.

The Liberal government had promised in its 2015 election campaign to prohibit and buy back a range of semi-automatic rifles, including AR-class rifles widely cited for their use in mass shootings in the U.S.

Retailers and distributors had expected a potential ban on so-called “military style” rifles after the Liberal government passed Bill C-71 through the Senate in May 2019. But Ottawa declined for months to provide details on how and when it might enforce a ban and a buyback program.

Many observers have questioned Ottawa’s definition of “military style” firearms, saying it arbitrarily categorizes them as firearms that “have semi-automatic action with sustained rapid-fire capability… are of modern design, and are present in large volumes in the Canadian market.”

Pro-gun activists say increasing restrictions on gun owners only serves to constrict the rights of law-abiding citizens, while ignoring the smuggling of illegal guns that feeds the majority of gang-related gun violence. The vast majority of gun violence in Canada is not perpetrated by legal gun owners.

Gabriel Wortman, the gunman who killed 22 people in Nova Scotia last month as part of a 14-hour rampage, is not believed to have been a licenced gun owner, according to the RCMP. Police are investigating where Wortman acquired the firearms used in the killing spree.

The AR-15 has never been used in a mass shooting in Canada. The Liberal ban does prohibit other rifles used in mass shootings in Canada in the past, including the 1989 shooting at l’École Polytechnique in Quebec and the 2006 shooting at Dawson College, among others.

[MKSheppard]

LOL WAT:

Indigenous people who use .50 calibre rifles to hunt big game will be allowed to continue using the firearms for a two-year period, after which they will have to surrender them, according to a spokesperson for Justice Minister David Lametti. Exemptions from the ban could also be extended to people, both Indigenous and non-Indigenous, who depend on the firearms to sustain their families.

I went and looked and found this (American Indian not Canadian Indian):

https://iwc.int/makah-tribe

Description of the USA Aboriginal Subsistence Hunt:
Makah Tribe

...

The Tribe’s hunt includes measures that will ensure that the hunt is conducted in the most humane manner practicable consistent with the Tribe’s goal of providing opportunities for a traditional ceremonial and subsistence hunt. To achieve this objective of blending traditional and modern methods, the whaling crew will approach the whale in a cedar canoe led by a whaling captain, and all whales will be harpooned with a toggle-point harpoon with floats attached before being dispatched with a .50 or larger caliber rifle shot to the central nervous system (brain and upper spinal cord).

So you CAN use .50 BMG to hunt....whales that is.

[MKSheppard]

So in Canada, the ARMALYTE 15 is banned (along with tonnes of other things like the M-14), but... this is legal:

The Type 97 is the civilian export version of the QBZ-97 rifle, which in turn is the export version of the 5.8x42mm QBZ-95. It is chambered in 5.56x45mm and takes STANAG magazines.

The Norinco T97 (or Type 97) has been a 4 year process. Canada Ammo originally attempted to import them in bulk, but was stymied by a very late process RCMP review that found it was too easily converted to fully automatic. A renewed effort by North Sylva redesigned the trigger mechanism to eliminate this issue and they were successful in getting an FRT for their redesigned T97NSR and are importing the rifles into Canada at a roughly $750 price point as of September, 2017. Now that the wait is finally over, how’s the rifle? There are a pile of photos below, so if you want to know about a particular piece of the rifle, check out the gallery below.

Same crazy situation exists in Maryland where:

FN-FAL, HK G-3, M-14 are illegal and banned, along with the Steyr AUG

but

you can buy AR-10s all day long and you can buy Maryland compliant Tavors.

[MKSheppard]

So on a Canadian Gun Forum, someone posted this; and it's started floating around the internets:

Basically, the OIC was to keep people from flooding the gun stores and buying soon to be banned weapons, many of which are "non registered" in the Canadian system of gun regulations:

LINK

May 7 2020

So...I have seen and been read various memos and policy notes on the coming firearms legislation. I do not know what version of those notes and memos they are and I am avoiding specific verbatim quotes lest the persons who have been providing them are identified as being the source. You don't have to read this and I personally don't care if you "believe" it or not. Thats for you. For those that are interested this is what I have been able to distill.

The OIC prohibitions last week are an interim measure and the coming legislation will not only encompass the OIC particulars but be structured in such a way that legislatively make the law a "living" administrative tool. We sometimes refer to these policies or regulations as "Evergreen" meaning that action can be taken without the need to go through a critical process. In government this is the type of thing dictators and tyrants use...although they don't need a democratic process to do it. You saw the Liberal governments attempt to seize unregulated power in the form of an unlimited spending proposal a month ago. You then saw the Liberals use executive power in the OIC cloaked in the false veil of public safety.

The new legislation will target and ban or restrict all semi auto rifles, anything resembling a "black type" rifle and anything modifiable such as stocks, VFG's etc etc.

From more than one document this would also appear to target rimfire firearms for restrictions on what can done. For example no aftermarket tactical stocks or pistol grips etc. For example your 10/22 will only remain a non restricted rifle as long as you don't have a pistol grip or flash hider or anything to stimulate a mentality that could be considered fostering a tactical "fantasy". Thats s weirdly repeated Liberal talking point and it appears they recognize that people with mental health issues are stimulated in various ways but refuse to deal with mental health. For some reason they think taking away a firearm is a substitute for mental health treatment.

The fallout from this legislation will be much broader than most people realize. The Liberals DO recognize the fallout and in fact have targeted the businesses of firearms retailers specifically through the collateral attack of prohibitions. They know they they are wiping out an industry of retailers, sporting events and related products business by doing this. Most of the gun dealers and gun shops you all know will not survive this ban. The Liberals know it and they consider that part of their plan. One staffer joked with someone i talk to that "all the unemployed gun store idiots are complicit in the gun deaths in this country and that when they are unemployed the can retrain to work in renewable energy."

The US is watching. Outfitters and hunting operators will feel the fallout as American tourists stay away from Canada in protest. Unlike many people...Americans will boycott over gun issues. While the Liberals seem very aware of some of the collateral damage and destruction targeting specific guns will cause they seem oblivious or in some cases in denial about others.

Make no mistake. The Liberals do NOT believe for a second that these new laws and prohibitions will in anyway impact organized or street violence. The know that it will continue. They plan on capitalizing on the continue gun violence as a way to push for further restrictions and prohibitions.

They are fuelled to do what they are doing because of polling. This is political and they want power. While their popularity is slipping they are very away that the CPC is hampered by the PPC and the PQ. They believe that should they lose power that the CPC will only win a minority government and could not undo the legislation around firearms. They are also aware that a majority CPC government would be expected to not only undo that which has been done through the OIC's but the coming legislation. This is why they are moving the legislation through in a way that they are planning to be able to block any change in a minority CPC government.

The Liberal Party makes money from gun bans. They pass laws that they grandstand on and then campaign for donations. Politics is a business and the Liberal Party has weaponized this business against the democracy that Canada used to be.

You will all have to make a decision on how to challenge the politics of what they have done. Until there is one voice...one party on the Right along with a determined stance....the Liberals will execute their plan.

[Jub]

So on a Canadian Gun Forum, someone posted this; and it's started floating around the internets:

Basically, the OIC was to keep people from flooding the gun stores and buying soon to be banned weapons, many of which are "non registered" in the Canadian system of gun regulations:

LINK

May 7 2020

So...I have seen and been read various memos and policy notes on the coming firearms legislation. I do not know what version of those notes and memos they are and I am avoiding specific verbatim quotes lest the persons who have been providing them are identified as being the source. You don't have to read this and I personally don't care if you "believe" it or not. Thats for you. For those that are interested this is what I have been able to distill.

The OIC prohibitions last week are an interim measure and the coming legislation will not only encompass the OIC particulars but be structured in such a way that legislatively make the law a "living" administrative tool. We sometimes refer to these policies or regulations as "Evergreen" meaning that action can be taken without the need to go through a critical process. In government this is the type of thing dictators and tyrants use...although they don't need a democratic process to do it. You saw the Liberal governments attempt to seize unregulated power in the form of an unlimited spending proposal a month ago. You then saw the Liberals use executive power in the OIC cloaked in the false veil of public safety.

The new legislation will target and ban or restrict all semi auto rifles, anything resembling a "black type" rifle and anything modifiable such as stocks, VFG's etc etc.

From more than one document this would also appear to target rimfire firearms for restrictions on what can done. For example no aftermarket tactical stocks or pistol grips etc. For example your 10/22 will only remain a non restricted rifle as long as you don't have a pistol grip or flash hider or anything to stimulate a mentality that could be considered fostering a tactical "fantasy". Thats s weirdly repeated Liberal talking point and it appears they recognize that people with mental health issues are stimulated in various ways but refuse to deal with mental health. For some reason they think taking away a firearm is a substitute for mental health treatment.

The fallout from this legislation will be much broader than most people realize. The Liberals DO recognize the fallout and in fact have targeted the businesses of firearms retailers specifically through the collateral attack of prohibitions. They know they they are wiping out an industry of retailers, sporting events and related products business by doing this. Most of the gun dealers and gun shops you all know will not survive this ban. The Liberals know it and they consider that part of their plan. One staffer joked with someone i talk to that "all the unemployed gun store idiots are complicit in the gun deaths in this country and that when they are unemployed the can retrain to work in renewable energy."

The US is watching. Outfitters and hunting operators will feel the fallout as American tourists stay away from Canada in protest. Unlike many people...Americans will boycott over gun issues. While the Liberals seem very aware of some of the collateral damage and destruction targeting specific guns will cause they seem oblivious or in some cases in denial about others.

Make no mistake. The Liberals do NOT believe for a second that these new laws and prohibitions will in anyway impact organized or street violence. The know that it will continue. They plan on capitalizing on the continue gun violence as a way to push for further restrictions and prohibitions.

They are fuelled to do what they are doing because of polling. This is political and they want power. While their popularity is slipping they are very away that the CPC is hampered by the PPC and the PQ. They believe that should they lose power that the CPC will only win a minority government and could not undo the legislation around firearms. They are also aware that a majority CPC government would be expected to not only undo that which has been done through the OIC's but the coming legislation. This is why they are moving the legislation through in a way that they are planning to be able to block any change in a minority CPC government.

The Liberal Party makes money from gun bans. They pass laws that they grandstand on and then campaign for donations. Politics is a business and the Liberal Party has weaponized this business against the democracy that Canada used to be.

You will all have to make a decision on how to challenge the politics of what they have done. Until there is one voice...one party on the Right along with a determined stance....the Liberals will execute their plan.

Are you able to provide proof for any of these claims?