Alec Baldwin 'heartbroken' and cooperating with police after fatal onset shooting of Halyna Hutchins

[Formless]

If true, that would muddy the waters considerably...

Of course that's what their lawyers are going to say. Its perfectly plausible, and at the very least would lower their culpability in the shooting and probably dodge criminal charges outright for their client. You can't badger a witness into confessing like in Perry Mason, but trying to redirect the blame onto someone else is a tried and true legal tactic.

Obviously someone brought live bullets onto the production when they weren't supposed to. The question is why. It might not have been out of malice, but someone fooling around with weapons that belonged to the production and not themselves. Or it might have been someone looking to cause injury. There is just no way of knowing yet, and I'm sure the police are looking into that angle. But don't take the lawyers' word for it.

Even if its true, someone could still be sued for improperly checking the gun for ammo. I mean, they weren't actually filming, so I don't know why Baldwin's gun needed to be loaded with anything.

[Ralin]

Oh wow... So I guess you'd be happy if we went back to the days of the military shooting miners for going on strike over deadly working conditions. After all, why should the rich have to give a single fuck if the lower classes live a few extra years, they can just hire more.

Nah, I want to avoid going back to the days when Vinny the Squid could go up to a business and start muscling the owner around.

It should be. The goal of society should be wealth for all, not for the ruthless few.

The goal of society should be to uphold the rights and welfare of its citizens. Not to enable extortionists.

So greed is good if you already have money but is bad if you're poor...

Protecting what’s yours is good. Thinking you’re entitled to dictate someone else’s business just because they hire people in the same field as you is bad.

They may also have had fewer problems if they didn't mock employees for requesting accommodation which didn't require 4-extra hours of round trip driving that other parts of the crew didn't have to endure.

Who knows, but it sure didn’t help.

Either way, there’s nothing wrong with hiring unapproved (by what amounts to a private professional club) employees to work for your business and it’s pretty fucking ghoulish to latch onto something like this to rant about it.

But hey, I've never run a production company that has killed somebody due to my being cheap and worthless so what could I possibly know about anything...

Pretty sure you’ve never run much of anything.

[Soontir C'boath]

*snip*

Please get off your high horse. The only person making a mountain over a mole hill about the word scab, is you and now you've taken this thread off course with that.

Why the fuck should I even bother giving a shit about the scabs when they were just there for a few hours after the union workers walked out? So please, stop looking for something that's not there.

[Ralin]

Please get off your high horse. The only person making a mountain over a mole hill about the word scab, is you and now you've taken this thread off course with that.

It went off course because you kept tossing around slurs for the replacement employees until someone finally called you on it and another entitled MF-er took the bait and started posturing.

Why the fuck should I even bother giving a shit about the scabs when they were just there for a few hours after the union workers walked out? So please, stop looking for something that's not there.

Presumably you had a reason for bringing it up.

[Soontir C'boath]

If scab is a slur here, then SDN has turned to shit.

And in case anyone haven't noticed, but unions are forming across the country and existing unions are striking more than ever before for better working conditions so sod off with that anti-union shit.

[Ralin]

If scab is a slur here, then SDN has turned to shit.

Yes yes, an insult isn't a slur if you want to use it.

And in case anyone haven't noticed, but unions are forming across the country and existing unions are striking more than ever before for better working conditions so sod off with that anti-union shit.

"Fuck you for derailing the thread with this pointless tangent but also how dare you say bad things about my entitled homies who are totally going to take what they want whether you like it or not!!!"

[Soontir C'boath]

Wow, what a fucking joke. Living in a time where working conditions and pay have become utter shit with scabs not helping with that at all, but yea unions are to blame.

It is the very lack of unionization that has cause our current predicament across the country and the lack of listening to the union workers in this goddamn movie set that has led to someone's death, but yea sure. Fuck unions!

Go work for Amazon and piss in a bottle or wear a diaper. Fuck yea, fuck unions!

[bilateralrope]

Yeah, they are, because people of means shouldn't have to deal with what amounts to extortion from people they hired to perform services deciding that they should be the ones in charge.

Which piece of "extortion" do you object to:
- The union people wanting the production to honor the agreement for local hotels
- The union people wanting the local hotels because that let them avoid a 1 hour commute, each way, on top of long days working.
- The union people walking off the set because production didn't care about the safety of the people working there

Or do you object to some extortion that didn't happen on this set ?

I know that unions are more complicated in the US than elsewhere. But I also notice that, had this production not been able to hire scab cameramen, production would have halted before the fatal shot.

[Formless]

Why are we having this argument, other than principled dick measuring? The union walkout has yet to be directly connected to the shooting. It is at best a correlation, and a sign of bad business and management practices. But the walkout may simply be a symptom of a larger problem that lead to those events, or it may be completely unconnected since at this point there is still no word on what live bullets were doing on set in the first place or who brought them there. Even the lawyers claiming this was caused by intentional sabotage fall short of accusing anyone specific. As lawyers, they of course know better.

[Soontir C'boath]

Because one of the reasons they cited for walking out was that a gun had misfired on the set before.
https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-a ... ed-off-set

[Formless]

And there are rumors that some idiots were firing the guns at beer cans just for fun, and if true for all we know it was union employees doing that shit. I've heard no evidence that they are any better trained for gun safety than non-union employees, and we all know stupidity is a common denominator of the human species. Your point missed the mark. I'm trying to remind everyone that until the investigation is done, we don't know what actually lead to two people getting shot on that set. All we know for sure is that at least 3 people had to fuck up a routine safety check on a gun that shouldn't have had live rounds anywhere near it to begin with.

[Soontir C'boath]

And there are rumors that some idiots were firing the guns at beer cans just for fun, and if true for all we know it was union employees doing that shit. I've heard no evidence that they are any better trained for gun safety than non-union employees, and we all know stupidity is a common denominator of the human species. Your point missed the mark. I'm trying to remind everyone that until the investigation is done, we don't know what actually lead to two people getting shot on that set. All we know for sure is that at least 3 people had to fuck up a routine safety check on a gun that shouldn't have had live rounds anywhere near it to begin with.

Um, what exactly is YOUR point?

Because I don't understand your beef. If it turned out that the gun simply had the wrong round chambered, then yea sure blame the armorer and the idiots who were suppose to check the gun. But when there were complaints of safety issues with the handling of the weapons before hand already and nothing was done. That's on the producers' heads. They can't claim ignorance. They can't blame that it was just an accident. It was an accident WAITING TO HAPPEN. It was a matter of when, not if.

Also, it's funny how you're talking as if I give a shit on whether it was union employee involved or not. The only point that I have kept making in regards to them is the fact that they had brought up the issue of safety around the handling of the weapons on set as stated in the LA Times article. I'm not talking about anything else in regards to whatever else may have happened.

[Soontir C'boath]

Why are we having this argument, other than principled dick measuring? The union walkout has yet to be directly connected to the shooting.

Let me go back to this. WHY THE FUCK WOULD THE WALKOUT BE DIRECTLY CONNECTED TO THE SHOOTING? WHY WOULD YOU EVEN THINK THIS IS WHAT I/WE MEAN?

Jesus, my brain fucking hurts.

[Formless]

Um, what exactly is YOUR point?

That this whole argument about union employees VS scabs IS a fucking tangent, as its treating speculation as fact for the purpose of making this about union politics and not the actual events as we understand them right now. And its just bloody annoying to everyone who doesn't care about the union politics. That's my point.

Because I don't understand your beef. If it turned out that the gun simply had the wrong round chambered, then yea sure blame the armorer and the idiots who were suppose to check the gun. But when there were complaints of safety issues with the handling of the weapons before hand already and nothing was done. That's on the producers' heads. They can't claim ignorance. They can't blame that it was just an accident. It was an accident WAITING TO HAPPEN. It was a matter of when, not if.

You forget one thing. There should never have been live ammo anywhere near the armory if the gun going to be used as a movie prop. Only if its to be used as the weapon it was designed to be. That was safety violation number 1, and they are right to be investigating the possibility that someone did that maliciously. ESPECIALLY when there was a labor dispute going on. In this regard I think Broomstick was right to point out that Unions have been known to do illegal shit like rough up non-union employees during strikes. All it would take is one angry employee leaving a bullet in the wrong box to create a workplace danger. But everyone is assuming it had to be the fault of the production company, when we don't know how the live ammo got there. Its definitely the production company's fault that the gun was improperly checked, but the presence of live rounds may not be. Or maybe it is, who knows at this point?

"Businessmen bad" is the easy take. The wider range of possibilities is apparently uncomfortable for some people here to think about.

Also, it's funny how you're talking as if I give a shit on whether it was union employee involved or not. The only point that I have kept making in regards to them is the fact that they had brought up the issue of safety around the handling of the weapons on set as stated in the LA Times article. I'm not talking about anything else in regards to whatever else may have happened.

Who knows at this point whether they are being honest? Someone got shot, and everyone involved in the production could very well be looking to cover their own ass over it in order to dodge a murder charge. Let the investigators do their job, is all I'm saying.

Let me go back to this. WHY THE FUCK WOULD THE WALKOUT BE DIRECTLY CONNECTED TO THE SHOOTING?

First, don't go all-caps on me. Sit back, relax, and remember that someone being wrong on the internet doesn't bloody matter. Second, it seems implied by everyone talking about "scabs" taking over that they think this directly contributed to the shooting taking place. Like they are even less trained on safety issues than union employees. But we don't really know that, and we don't really know who is responsible for the ultimate cause of the shooting-- the presence of live ammo on set.

[Soontir C'boath]

Um, what exactly is YOUR point?

That this whole argument about union employees VS scabs IS a fucking tangent, as its treating speculation as fact for the purpose of making this about union politics and not the actual events as we understand them right now. And its just bloody annoying to everyone who doesn't care about the union politics. That's my point.

Blame Broomstick for that.

You forget one thing. There should never have been live ammo anywhere near the armory if the gun going to be used as a movie prop. Only if its to be used as the weapon it was designed to be. That was safety violation number 1, and they are right to be investigating the possibility that someone did that maliciously. ESPECIALLY when there was a labor dispute going on. In this regard I think Broomstick was right to point out that Unions have been known to do illegal shit like rough up non-union employees during strikes. All it would take is one angry employee leaving a bullet in the wrong box to create a workplace danger. But everyone is assuming it had to be the fault of the production company, when we don't know how the live ammo got there. Its definitely the production company's fault that the gun was improperly checked, but the presence of live rounds may not be. Or maybe it is, who knows at this point?

"Businessmen bad" is the easy take. The wider range of possibilities is apparently uncomfortable for some people here to think about.

Buddy, you just admitted it's the company's fault.

Also, I don't know if you realized, but if you check the gun as you rightfully blame the company didn't do, they would've seen if it had a live round chambered.

Who knows at this point whether they are being honest? Someone got shot, and everyone involved in the production could very well be looking to cover their own ass over it in order to dodge a murder charge. Let the investigators do their job, is all I'm saying.

Ok and? You've already admitted the production company is at fault, so I'll take that. Anything else beyond this point is just whether more people belong in prison or not.

Let me go back to this. WHY THE FUCK WOULD THE WALKOUT BE DIRECTLY CONNECTED TO THE SHOOTING?

First, don't go all-caps on me. Sit back, relax, and remember that someone being wrong on the internet doesn't bloody matter. Second, it seems implied by everyone talking about "scabs" taking over that they think this directly contributed to the shooting taking place. Like they are even less trained on safety issues than union employees. But we don't really know that, and we don't really know who is responsible for the ultimate cause of the shooting-- the presence of live ammo on set.

Reading comprehension is hard I know, but if you read that, ''the union workers walked out due to safety issues on set'' as ''the union workers walking out directly caused someone to die'', I really don't know what to tell you.

[Soontir C'boath]

Uproxx

A Veteran Prop Master Says He Turned Down A Job On ‘Rust’ Due To ‘Massive Red Flags’
JENNIFER WOOD
OCTOBER 26, 2021

On Thursday, October 21st, cinematographer Halyna Hutchins was tragically killed while filming the new Western Rust near Santa Fe, New Mexico, when she struck and killed by a bullet from a gun fired by Alec Baldwin. As the incident continues to be probed by authorities and the Hollywood unions that oversee movie set safety protocols, new information is emerging about the production. As The Wrap reports, veteran property master Neal W. Zoromski came forward to say that he was in discussions about coming aboard as Rust’s property master, but ultimately passed on the job after getting a “bad feeling.”

Zoromski—who has more than 30 years of experience as a prop master and has worked on a number of well-known film and TV productions, including Criminal Minds, Scandal, Grace and Frankie, and Snowfall—spoke with the Los Angeles Times about how excited he initially was at the prospect of working on the project, as he has never filmed a Western. But that after spending four days speaking with Rust’s filmmakers, Zoromski passed on the project as “there were massive red flags.” According to the Times:

“He said he felt that Rust was too much of a slapdash production, one with an overriding focus on saving money instead of a concern for people’s safety. Production managers didn’t seem to value experience and were brushing off his questions, he said.”

“After I pressed ‘send’ on that last email, I felt, in the pit of my stomach: ‘That is an accident waiting to happen,’” Zoromski told the Times. But now, he’s reportedly questioning whether he made the right decision to pass on the project, as “he believes that had he accepted the Rust job, things would have turned out differently.”

“I take my job incredibly seriously,” Zoromski said. “As the prop master, you have to be concerned about safety. I’m the guy who hands the guns to the people on set.”

Among the concerns that led to Zoromski saying “no” to the project was the fact that he was initially contacted on September 20th, just two weeks before production was set to begin, whereas often a prop master is brought in months ahead of time. He also claimed that the producers were “evasive” when he was asking about the specifics of the job, including the list of props he’d need to gather and oversee.

“In the movies, the prep is everything,” Zoromski said. “You also need time to clean, inspect and repair guns. You need time to fix old clocks. In period films, you are sometimes using antiques. But here, there was absolutely no time to prepare, and that gave me a bad feeling.”

The “deal breaker,” according to the Times:

Zoromski said he initially asked for a department of five technicians. He was told that “Rust” was a low-budget production and that plans were to use items from a local prop house. He modified his request to have at least two experienced crew members: one to serve as an assistant prop master and the other as an armorer, or gun wrangler, dedicated to making sure the weapons were safe, oiled and functioning properly.

But the “Rust” producers insisted that only one person was needed to handle both tasks.

“You never have a prop assistant double as the armorer,” Zoromski said. “Those are two really big jobs.”

The job of “property key assistant/armorer” ultimately went to Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, a 24-year-old with just two other credits to her name—one as a costume assistant and the other as head armorer on The Old Way, which is set to be released in 2022. That lack of experience is part of what’s now being questioned, with the Los Angeles Times writing that:

“According to search warrants, [Gutierrez-Reed] left three weapons on a rolling cart outside the church setting at midday Thursday. [Joel] Souza, the film’s director, told a Santa Fe County Sheriff’s Office investigator that multiple people had been handling the guns and that he wasn’t sure whether anyone had checked them for safety after the group came back from lunch.”

(Via Los Angeles Times)

[Formless]

One thing that I think is easy to forget here: the gun can misfire all day long and not really be a significant hazard. Why? Because if its firing blanks, nothing is coming out the barrel except smoke and noise. Things that don't kill people at long range. It only becomes a hazard if either a projectile is loaded into the barrel (a live round, or perhaps a barrel obstruction like a rock), or the gun explodes because of a barrel obstruction. Most of the time when we say a gun misfired, we mean it didn't go off at all. Like, the hammer dropped and it didn't go boom. Usually its actually a problem with the ammo, but it could be an issue with the hammer or firing pin. Most of the more dangerous forms of misfire relate to the weapon going off out of battery or delayed ignition. But with no actual projectile in the gun, the only way its going to kill someone is if it explodes or you stupidly put it right up against your head. That has happened before, it should be said.

So people leaving the set over safety concerns probably never thought someone could be killed-- unless they knew about the live ammo that was on set. Or they just don't know much about guns.

Buddy, you just admitted it's the company's fault.

I only said they are (likely) at fault for the safety check failure. Hell, the saying among shooting enthusiasts is that there is no such thing as an accidental shooting, only negligence, because guns don't go off on their own. The real question is whether the producers knew about the live ammo that was on set. If they didn't know, they are less responsible for what happened than if they did. If someone sabotaged the set, as alleged by the armorer's lawyer, then that person should absolutely be facing criminal charges, not Baldwin or his colleagues.

Also, I don't know if you realized, but if you check the gun as you rightfully blame the company didn't do, they would've seen if it had a live round chambered.

How easy do you think it is to distinguish between a live round and a blank when its in the chamber of a revolver? All you can see is the back end of the cartridge, not the part of it that's supposed to go flying out the barrel. If it were a semi-automatic gun, you can look at the magazine and see the whole cartridge, but those are from a different time. And if none of the three people who last handled the gun knew there were real bullets on set, they probably didn't think that there could be anything but blanks in the gun. Granted that as I've talked about, blanks can still be hazardous and need to be respected, but they are used for a reason. I can't count how many movies and TV shows a year manage to use blanks on set without people getting hurt.

Reading comprehension is hard I know, but if you read that, ''the union workers walked out due to safety issues on set'' as ''the union workers walking out directly caused someone to die'', I really don't know what to tell you.

And what part of "don't trust anyone who was on that set to tell the truth" is hard for you to understand?

[Soontir C'boath]

Wow, absolutely, wow. Any excuse you can make to let them off the hook. Just wow.

Look, I know you want to suck Baldwin's dick, but this ain't worth it.

[Formless]

What the fuck? Are you even paying attention? I'm not here to lionize anyone. But I'm not here to demonize anyone either. My whole point this entire time has been to point out how biased you stupid pricks are being on both sides of the equation. I've already said Baldwin is responsible for his failure to check his weapon, but that isn't good enough? No one else could also be responsible for this as well, it has to be the producers and production company? That's the bias I'm seeing here. The possibility of someone else committing a crime is truly something you don't want to contemplate, and I understand. Businessmen bad. I get it. I'm a socialist too. But the world isn't so simplistic that Union employees are hyper competent saints who know which end of a gun the bullets even come out of.

TL:DR You aren't the cops investigating the case, and thank god for that.

[Soontir C'boath]

The simple answer is yes. At the end of the day, the producers and company are at fault, because it is their responsibility to ensure a safe working environment on set and they did not provide that given the details given at hand. The Captain/s goes down with the ship, as they say.

Even if someone maliciously brought on set live ammunition, it is still their fault. Why? Because the armorer (who is inexperienced) is responsible for the gun and its load. Who hired the armorer? The producers.

This is not hard to understand.

[Crazedwraith]

You guys seem to be aggressively agreeing with each other now.

[bilateralrope]

Why are we having this argument, other than principled dick measuring? The union walkout has yet to be directly connected to the shooting. It is at best a correlation, and a sign of bad business and management practices. But the walkout may simply be a symptom of a larger problem that lead to those events, or it may be completely unconnected since at this point there is still no word on what live bullets were doing on set in the first place or who brought them there. Even the lawyers claiming this was caused by intentional sabotage fall short of accusing anyone specific. As lawyers, they of course know better.

What I see in the union walkout is that the people who left were the only ones who were thinking about anyone's safety. Production breaking the agreement about hotel rooms was one health and safety issue. The accidental discharges were another.

Unfortunately, all they could do was warn the producers about the accidental discharges. Then get themselves out of the line of fire when that message was ignored.

One thing that I think is easy to forget here: the gun can misfire all day long and not really be a significant hazard. Why?

Lets quote the specific complaints they had:

Safety protocols standard in the industry, including gun inspections, were not strictly followed on the “Rust” set near Santa Fe, the sources said. They said at least one of the camera operators complained last weekend to a production manager about gun safety on the set.

Hollywood has procedures for gun safety that were not being followed. Safety procedures written because people have died in the past.

Three crew members who were present at the Bonanza Creek Ranch set on Saturday said they were particularly concerned about two accidental prop gun discharges.

Baldwin’s stunt double accidentally fired two rounds Saturday after being told that the gun was “cold” — lingo for a weapon that doesn’t have any ammunition, including blanks — two crew members who witnessed the episode told the Los Angeles Times.

Two discharges from a "cold" gun. Not misfires where the gun doesn't go off. Discharges. From a gun that was supposed to be empty.

At that point it should have been obvious that someone wasn't doing their job. Someone was skipping checks of the gun and lying about it. When people start skipping and lying about health and safety procedures, people die.

How easy do you think it is to distinguish between a live round and a blank when its in the chamber of a revolver?

Wrong comparison. The gun should have been empty. So the question is one of telling the difference between a loaded and unloaded gun.

Even if someone maliciously brought on set live ammunition, it is still their fault. Why? Because the armorer (who is inexperienced) is responsible for the gun and its load. Who hired the armorer? The producers.

Don't forget about her being overworked from working two roles that should have been separate. That's a bit hard to pin on anyone except the producers, especially after that veteran prop master turned down the role for exactly that reason.

[Soontir C'boath]

You guys seem to be aggressively agreeing with each other now.

Not really. Maybe a little bit? Seems the only thing Formless is harping on is that we shouldn't be jumping to conclusions. Taking the given accounts of the incident with a grain of salt and wants to wait for the investigation to be completed to find out who's really at fault, but given what's been laid out so far, that doesn't really matter at this point? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[LadyTevar]

ENOUGH!

JUB, Ralin, Go to your corners and ignore each other. THREAD CLOSED