General North Korea thread

[Lonestar]

My int. History of the Cold War had a bit of a nasty take on the summit

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story ... mit-218672

The Hole at the Heart of the North Korea Summit

Everyone’s forgetting what Kim Jong Un really says he’s prepared to do.

By JAMES G. HERSHBERG

June 11, 2018

Discussion of the summit between President Donald Trump and North Korean leader Kim Jong Un to discuss “denuclearization” appears confused—or, for the most part, nonexistent—on one potentially key issue that could pose a major roadblock to any real deal, and may constitute a sort of cognitive dissonance between the two sides.

When Trump and other senior U.S. officials, such as Vice President Mike Pence, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and national security adviser John Bolton, speak of their aims for the summit (and, presumably, ensuing negotiations to hammer out the details of any accord in principle), they talk about an accord to permanently, verifiably and irreversibly “denuclearize” North Korea, which has built a substantial arsenal of nuclear weapons, both bombs and missiles to deliver them, since detonating its first atomic blast in October 2006.

Naturally, they say, since the North Koreans have repeatedly lied in the past and can hardly be trusted, any acceptable agreement must include Pyongyang’s acceptance of intrusive inspections to verify its full compliance—a requirement that would, presumably, be at least as stern as the 2015 Iran nuclear accord, brokered by the Obama administration with five other countries. Trump fulminated against that deal during his campaign and has now abandoned it, claiming it wasn’t tough enough. Given that, unlike Iran, North Korea has already built nuclear weapons and a significant scientific/industrial complex to develop and maintain them, any system of intrusive verification would have to be stringent enough to guard against the danger of secret hiding places for weapons, facilities, or other prohibited activities or items—including the right to conduct unlimited, surprise inspections of military bases and other state-run properties (and by competent nuclear technical experts, not just non-expert observers, like the foreign journalists North Korea allowed to witness from a distance the May 24 “destruction” of its mostly underground Punggye-ri nuclear test site).

As many specialists note, it’s extremely unlikely the historically reclusive North Korean regime, regardless of the economic incentives (i.e., bribes) it was offered, would ever permit a system of pervasive, permanent snooping, that would pry open its tightly closed society. It’s even a less plausible prospect than Saddam Hussein swallowing the sort of inspections that the George W. Bush administration demanded to forage for weapons of mass destruction in the run-up to its 2003 invasion. (As brutal dictatorships go, Saddam’s Iraq was a paragon of openness compared with North Korea.)

But there’s another problem. While Trump & Co. talk of denuclearizing North Korea, Kim has only agreed (in his April 27 joint statement with South Korean President Moon Jae-in, reaffirmed when they met again on Saturday May 26) to the “complete denuclearization” of the Korean Peninsula. That very different idea means that even in the remote scenario that Kim agreed to intrusive inspections inside North Korea, he would insist, inevitably and at a minimum, on reciprocal rights to inspect comparable locations in South Korea — for example, all U.S. military bases (where around 30,000 troops are currently stationed) and probably South Korean ones as well, plus any and all U.S. warships or aircraft capable of carrying nuclear weapons that enter South Korea’s waters or airspace. After all, they can argue, how else can the denuclearization of the entire peninsula be assured unless North Korean inspectors are allowed to snoop around all possible hiding places in South Korea, and the Americans withdraw and/or dismantle their bases or equipment capable of storing or using nuclear warheads—such as any dual-use (able to use conventional or nuclear) weapons that the U.S. has deployed in South Korea for decades?

These considerations, by the way, are familiar to anyone with even a passing knowledge of the history of the U.S.-Soviet nuclear arms race. Moscow’s objections to on-site inspections long doomed efforts at nuclear arms control, from the Truman administration’s 1946 Baruch Plan for international control of atomic energy, to Dwight Eisenhower’s “Open Skies” proposal at the 1955 Geneva summit, to John F. Kennedy’s efforts to achieve a comprehensive ban on nuclear tests (he settled instead for the 1963 Limited Test Ban treaty, which forbid explosions above ground, in the atmosphere or at sea, reducing radioactive fallout, but let underground tests continue). Only when Mikhail Gorbachev reversed four decades of Soviet policy in 1986 to allow mutual inspections (and satisfy Ronald Reagan’s endlessly repeated “Doveryai, no proveryai” [“Trust But Verify”] slogan) did dramatic progress become possible to slash both sides’ nuclear arsenals, starting with the near-breakthrough at the October 1986 Reykjavik Reagan-Gorbachev summit and then the 1987 Intermediate Nuclear Forces (INF) treaty, presaging further accords.

It is, frankly, hard to imagine the Pentagon or White House allowing North Korean inspectors to poke their noses inside every U.S. military facility or vehicle in South Korea—or any actions that might threaten to denude South Korea of on-site U.S. military protection or nuclear deterrence—as the price to be paid for obtaining comparable rights inside North Korea. Would it be a worthwhile bargain? Is it even conceivable to hash out a workable, credible program? Might Washington and Seoul disagree if Pyongyang genuinely seemed ready to cooperate? Many complicated aspects of the issue require careful, informed consideration. The question is whether Trump, in his headlong, half-baked, helter-skelter rush to secure a Nobel Peace Prize, has even started to think about them. If the U.S. wants a serious discussion of “denuclearization” with North Korea, it should. Observers have noticed that “reciprocity” is one of Trump’s favorite words. He often repeats it lovingly, syllable by syllable, like a middle-schooler proud of mastering a vocabulary word for the PSATs, especially when discussing trade. He may not like the sound so much when the North Koreans utter the same word.

[houser2112]

It's rather like people in the US who want to argue that to Korean War wasn't a war for the US, it was a "police action". No, it was a fucking war. Euphemism doesn't change that.

While I think it is silly (and disrespectful to those who fought in it) to reduce the Korean War to a "police action", it is not a war (legally speaking, from the US perspective, at least) because Congress didn't declare war, it was a UN-sanctioned military engagement.

I've always wondered why Congress has not declared war since WWII, given that the US has done a lot of things that look a whole lot like war to me (Korea, Vietnam, Persian Gulf, Bosnia, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc). The apparent answer:

In addition, international law (which is very much part of the Constitution) has changed during the last 115 years. The notion of a "declaration of war" is now both obsolete and meaningless. Under both the Kellogg-Briand Pact of 1928 and the United Nations Charter (1945), war is no longer a lawful tool of national policy. With few exceptions, states may use military force only in self-defense, or with the permission of the U.N. Security Council. Insisting that Congress "declare war" is not just simple-minded, but self-defeating: It is asking the nation to solemnly declare itself to be an international outlaw.

[Ralin]

But wow, you made it one and half posts into this discussion before trying to imply that I'm just a Western Imperialist. I'm impressed. I mean, I specified that I supported denuclearization for all countries, not just those outside the USA/Russia-approved club that you referred to. But I should have known that it would make no difference.

Oh for fuck’s sake, who do you think has pushed denuclearization/non-proliferation? George W Bush with his weapons of mass destruction crap is the most prominent advocate of stopping the spread of nuclear weapons and ‘eliminating them’ from countries that already have them in the past generation. Are you really surprised that you get lumped in with that when you spout off about the same thing?

"We" being humanity, or rather those of us who want human civilization to survive and thrive.

Humanity doesn’t want to get rid of nuclear weapons, and the parts of human civilization threatened by larger, stronger countries tend to be high on the list of people who want to acquire them.

And no, there is no need for weapons that can blow up cities.

Yeah, there absolutely is. Imagine how much better the world would be if Saddam had been able to hurl a couple nukes at Bush’s Willing Executioners when Iraq was invaded.

Waging war does not require genociding the entire civilian populace of a country.

Genocide generally requires way more than just blowing up one or two cities.

Nuclear weapons are kept as a deterrent, not meant to be used.

That is using nuclear weapons, dumbass. And it is very much a necessity for countries threatened by the War on Terror or whatever the fuck Trump decides to do tomorrow.

And frankly, if my country was going to be conquered, I would rather be conquered, and hope that we could overthrow our oppressors later, than for my country's last act to be burning the world in an act of genocidal spite. The only possible exception to this would be if we were being overrun by someone who we knew was going to commit genocide anyway, in which case crippling them might be worth our own mutual destruction.

I don't know, I just don't see much appeal in the "If I'm going down, I'm taking everyone else with me" attitude.

Spoken like someone who doesn’t have to worry about being conquered.

[Ralin]

Neglected to address this in my last post:

But surely he could have avoided catastrophe without giving Kim Jong Un fucking everything for nothing in return.

He gave Kim the time of day, a bunch of vacuous compliments and the solemn word of Donald Trump to stop doing America and South Korea’s annual joint muscle-flexing ritual.

There's a difference between diplomacy, and being best buds with someone. Trump not only gave Kim Jong Un a massive propaganda victory, and put him on a level with the United States as he has so long craved (albeit more by degrading America's standing than by elevating Kim's)-

If you don’t want to be compared to Dubya or lumped in with imperialists you should probably stop talking about how there are ‘levels’ for countries and how desperately the Kim dynasty has wanted to be granted the honor of being equal to the United States. As opposed to that being something all countries and governments have because there is no higher authority above individual states.

Hell, he basically used the North Korean line that they are a provocation.

They are. Not a military man and I don’t know how much practical benefit the joint exercises have in terms of keeping everyone’s skills trained and sharp, but given that they’re at least partially a dry run for a future invasion of North Korea I can’t say that I disagree with the North Korean government’s line on this.

These are tremendous wins for Kim Jong Un.

They’re a mild step forward to people who want to defuse the situation and normalize relations between North and South Korea.

[The Romulan Republic]

Oh for fuck’s sake, who do you think has pushed denuclearization/non-proliferation? George W Bush with his weapons of mass destruction crap is the most prominent advocate of stopping the spread of nuclear weapons and ‘eliminating them’ from countries that already have them in the past generation. Are you really surprised that you get lumped in with that when you spout off about the same thing?

This has got to be some kind of logical fallacy, though I can't recall the name. You're not arguing against the merits of nuclear proliferation: you're arguing that because a bad man used the position hypocritically to justify bad things, that automatically invalidates the argument and that anyone who uses it can now be lumped in with George W. Bush.

Problem is, you can do that with literally any position. Secularism? Some people use it to justify banning Muslim refugees, so clearly if you believe in the separation of Church and State, you're a xenophobic neo-Nazi. Universal Health Care? That's Socialized Medicine, so anyone who supports it is a Marxist. Criticizing American Imperialism? Osama Bin Laden did, so anyone who does so must be a jihadi terrorist.

Humanity doesn’t want to get rid of nuclear weapons, and the parts of human civilization threatened by larger, stronger countries tend to be high on the list of people who want to acquire them.

That's a hell of a broad generalization you're asserting. Have you got a statistical survey of the level of support for nuclear arms world-wide that you'd like to show me?

Yeah, there absolutely is. Imagine how much better the world would be if Saddam had been able to hurl a couple nukes at Bush’s Willing Executioners when Iraq was invaded.

Yes, because possibly stopping that one invasion justifies greatly increasing the risk that the entire world will burn.

Genocide generally requires way more than just blowing up one or two cities.

You think it would stop there, and not escalate further?

So you're not pro-genocide, just pro-war crimes with a side of incredibly naïve.

That is using nuclear weapons, dumbass. And it is very much a necessity for countries threatened by the War on Terror or whatever the fuck Trump decides to do tomorrow.

You know what I meant, its obvious what I meant, and you are nitpicking my wording to pretend I'm too stupid to understand the concept of deterrence so that you can substitute mockery for actually addressing my points in full.

Spoken like someone who doesn’t have to worry about being conquered.

I'll acknowledge my experiences are obviously not the same as those of someone in, say, Iraq, but the mere fact of my nationality does not render my position automatically invalid. That is ad hominem- attacking the speaker rather than the argument.

And actually, yes, I do worry about being conquered. Not from without, so much (unless you count Russian election interference, though the possibility of a US invasion of Canada no longer seems as unthinkable as it once did), but definitely being conquered from within, by white nationalism and authoritarianism. Which is actually harder to defend against in some ways than an external aggressor, and something nukes won't really help with.

So in summary, your argument is that:

a) "Anyone who opposes nuclear weapons can be assumed to be like George W. Bush."

b) "Everyone wants nukes, because I say so."

c) "Wouldn't it be wonderful if Saddam could have nuked a bunch of Americans?"

d) "If nukes are used, it will only be to blow up a couple cities (because that's no big deal, right?), and it won't possibly escalate, despite the entire history of MAD doctrine saying otherwise. Because I say so."

e) "TRR is too stupid to understand the uses of nuclear weapons, because I say so. Even though I'm the one who apparently doesn't understand the concept of escalation."

f) "Anyone who doesn't prefer mutual extermination to conquest is just a privileged westerner."

Since none of these constitute actual logical or valid arguments, I'm not sure what the point of this is.

Neglected to address this in my last post:

He gave Kim the time of day, a bunch of vacuous compliments and the solemn word of Donald Trump to stop doing America and South Korea’s annual joint muscle-flexing ritual.

Words matter, especially in politics and diplomacy.

Do you really see nothing wrong with Trump effectively endorsing and repeating North Korean propaganda, and Kim's leadership as a mass murdering despot, while praising the "loyalty" of his "hard working" people slaves?

If you don’t want to be compared to Dubya or lumped in with imperialists you should probably stop talking about how there are ‘levels’ for countries and how desperately the Kim dynasty has wanted to be granted the honor of being equal to the United States. As opposed to that being something all countries and governments have because there is no higher authority above individual states.

Because unbridled nationalism worked so well for the world in the '30s and '40s.

Let's be clear: I do not hate or condemn the people of any country, nor consider them collectively my inferiors. But I can and will criticize a government which routinely engages in the mass incarceration and murder of entire families, and treats its populace as more akin to a slave labour camp on a national scale. Morally, all people may be equal, but not all governments are. You can and will try to brand me as an Imperialist for actually daring to suggest that there is such a thing as right and wrong in the world, but I hold NK to the same standard that I do my own country. If Trump were doing the things Kim Jong Un does (which seems increasingly likely), I would want him deposed.

Trump condoning Kim's atrocities is a bad thing. If you would consider it a bad thing for people to defend American atrocities, you should consider it a bad thing for people to defend North Korean atrocities.

They are. Not a military man and I don’t know how much practical benefit the joint exercises have in terms of keeping everyone’s skills trained and sharp, but given that they’re at least partially a dry run for a future invasion of North Korea I can’t say that I disagree with the North Korean government’s line on this.

Every military engages in exercises. North Korea has military exercises. Moreover, its not Trump's decision to unilaterally withdraw from a bilateral agreement with SK.

They’re a mild step forward to people who want to defuse the situation and normalize relations between North and South Korea.

You really don't get the difference between "negotiating" and "endorsement/pandering"? Well, neither does the POTUS, apparently.

[Gandalf]

North and South Korean soldiers shake hands, exchange cigarettes during DMZ inspections

Dozens of North and South Korean soldiers exchanged cigarettes and chatted after crossing over the world's most heavily armed border on Wednesday.

The troops were inspecting the sites of their rival's frontline guard posts to verify they had been removed, as part of inter-Korean engagement efforts that come amid stalled US-North Korea nuclear disarmament talks.

Soldiers from the two Koreas inspected the dismantlement or disarmament of 22 guard posts — 11 from each country — inside the Demilitarised Zone (DMZ) that forms their 248-kilometre-long, four-kilometre-wide border.

The inspections were mostly symbolic — the removals will leave South Korea with about 50 other DMZ posts and North Korea with 150, according to defence experts in South Korea. But they mark an extraordinary change in ties from last year, when North Korea tested a series of increasingly powerful weapons and threatened Seoul and Washington with war.

A small group of journalists was allowed to enter the zone to watch a South Korean team leave for a North Korean guard post in the morning and a North Korean team come to a South Korean guard post later in the day.

Seven helmeted South Korean soldiers wearing backpacks, one carrying a camera and another a camcorder, approached the line separating the northern and southern sides of the DMZ.

North Korean troops then walked in a row down a hill to meet them.

The soldiers from the rival Koreas exchanged handshakes before moving up the hill together to go to the dismantled North Korean guard post.

Other groups of South Korean soldiers simultaneously visited 10 other North Korean guard posts.

They check to see if the guard posts and any underground structures have been completely dismantled and whether all troops, weapons and other equipment have been withdrawn, according to Seoul's Defence Ministry.

Hours later, seven North Korean soldiers clad in olive-green uniforms crossed the same borderline and were then escorted by South Korean troops to the concrete and steel debris of a destroyed South Korean post.

North Korean teams also visited 10 other South Korean sites.

Engagement 'unimaginable in the past'

South Korea's liberal President, Moon Jae-in, the driving force behind the current engagement effort, watched parts of the verification broadcast live at an underground bunker in Seoul.

Mr Moon called the work "a new milestone" in inter-Korean history that was "unimaginable in the past", according to his office.

North Korean soldiers allowed South Korean soldiers to use stethoscope-like equipment to inspect whether there were any underground tunnels below the site, South Korean presidential spokesman Kim Eui-kyeom told reporters.

The Demilitarised Zone was originally created as a buffer between the countries at the end of the 1950-53 Korean War.

But contrary to its name, the DMZ has become the world's most heavily fortified frontier after the rival Koreas planted an estimated two million mines, deployed combat troops and heavy weapons and set up layers of barbed wire fences.

When the leaders of the Koreas met in Pyongyang in September, they agreed to lower military tensions along their border, including the withdrawal of some DMZ guard posts, halting live-fire exercises near the border, demilitarising their shared border village of Panmunjom and removing mines at a DMZ area to launch joint searches for Korean War dead.

Conservatives in South Korea have criticised the deals, saying Seoul should not have agreed to such conventional arms reduction programs because North Korea's nuclear threat remains unchanged.

US-led nuclear diplomacy aimed at stripping North Korea of its nuclear program has reported little progress since North Korean leader Kim Jong-un and US President Donald Trump met for a summit in Singapore in June.

North Korea has made a vague disarmament pledge, and some experts say the North's turn to diplomacy after last year's string of weapons tests is aimed at weakening US-led sanctions.

So that's something.

[The Romulan Republic]

Little steps in the right direction.

[Exonerate]

Talks at Hanoi broken off early by Trump. DPRK offered to dismantle nuclear complex at Yongbyon under U.S. observation in exchange for partial UN sanctions relief. U.S. wants more (secret sites, delivery vehicles, inventory), walks out and skips the scheduled afternoon session. Trump expresses openness to continuing dialogue, DPRK holds presser insisting it's their final offer.

IMO, take the fucking deal because it's a good beginning and incremental step to what each party ultimately wants. There is not going to be a reduction in existing DPRK capabilities until they believe there is no need for a nuclear deterrent, which is a long way off. Frankly, time is working against the U.S, as the DPRK increases its arsenal - I don't see any benefit in holding out. Any more public statements by U.S that misrepresent state of negotiations and the DPRK will probably start doubting Trump's sanity/competence/sincerity, if they haven't already.

[Gandalf]

I liked this article, and that it deals with some of the things that shit me about a lot of dialogue around the DPRK.

Kim Jong-un isn't crazy, he's a smooth political operator and don't forget it
By global affairs analyst Stan Grant

There are many things you can call North Korea: a rogue regime. A hermit kingdom. Odious, untrustworthy, brutal, secretive, sinister, oppressive and dangerous. But don't call it unpredictable.

Yet, here we are at another nuclear summit with no shortage of pundits and reporters constantly referring to "the unpredictable North Korea".

It is as though they are locked in an endless loop of some Hollywood spoof: the zany haircuts, the wacky clothes.
The joke is on us

Yes North Korean leaders are easy to lampoon. Team America was a funny film, but it is a joke that has worn thin. It has become lazy shorthand for an inability to truly understand what North Korea is really about.

A regime does not survive for more than half a century in a still-declared state of war with the most powerful nation on the planet — the US — if it is loony.

A country does not endure some of the toughest economic sanctions imposed anywhere on Earth if it is wacko.

A nation ringed by American firepower does not manage to successfully develop a nuclear weapons arsenal if it is run by crackpots. Building nukes is hard. Just ask Iran, Iraq or Libya.

One family does not maintain a rigid hold on power passed down through three generations like the Kim family, if they are nothing more than idiotic Hollywood characters with bad hair.

The Kim regime has been calculating, shrewd, ruthless, cruel — and entirely predictable.

Keeping up with the Kims

In the west, the Kim family has been a source of mockery, but this family is too easily underestimated. Writer and Korea watcher Gavin Jacobson says, "No regime survives for 70 years — isolated and in dire financial straits — without a hardened backbone of logic supporting it".

North Korea has negotiated many times before; it has mastered the art of "bait and switch", offering concessions, doing a deal then walking away. Each twist and turn buying more time to build its nuclear arsenal. It has signposted every move it has made and fulfilled every one of its stated ambitions.

By 2005 it announced it had "produced nuclear weapons". The bomb has given North Korea a seat at the table; it is what separates North Korea from other rogue states. Kim has always known this, it is a lesson he learned from his father Kim Jong-il who learned it from his father before him, the eternal President, Kim Il-sung.

American Korea watcher Victor Cha has recounted a conversation with a North Korean envoy during nuclear negotiations a decade ago. The envoy reportedly said:

"The reason you attacked Afghanistan is because they didn't have nukes. And look what happened to Libya. That is why we will never give up ours."

When Kim Jong-un took power he set his sights on finishing his father's work. First would come the muscle then the money. It was a two-pronged strategy to win respect, recognition and survival.

There is nothing new or unpredictable here, Kim has told the world exactly what he wants. Presidents have come and gone: Clinton, Bush, Obama and now Trump. Despite warnings of collapse, enduring famine, economic sanctions, the Kim regime is still standing.

The endgame is survival

It has a million-man army and more firepower than at any time in its history. To Mr Kim, the endgame is survival, and thus far he has played his hand very well.

At the first summit in Singapore, Kim Jong-un achieved what he wanted, he stood shoulder-to-shoulder with an American president; the North Korean and US flags flew side-by-side.

For that legitimacy he gave up very little. North Korea is no closer to denuclearisation and in fact it is unclear exactly what denuclearisation even means. Entering the Hanoi summit, Donald Trump has said he is content if North Korea continues its halt on nuclear testing. That doesn't set the bar very high, why would Mr Kim need more tests, he already has the bomb?

Mr Kim wants what he has always wanted: a peace treaty to end the war, a non-aggression pact, sanctions lifted and survival.

No one suggests he will give up his weapons, how many he has and exactly where they are stored is a mystery likely beyond any inspections program.

What's in this for President Trump?

He already boasts that by meeting Kim he has averted war. He has rolled the dice on developing a close relationship with Kim, that he believes will yield results where other presidents have failed.

Donald Trump who hates the Obama negotiated Iran nuclear deal — relaxing sanctions in return for ceasing and opening up for inspections its weapons program — now wants to cut his own deal with North Korea.

The unpredictable one here is Donald Trump, not Kim Jong-un.

[LaCroix]

Aaand reports are that NK is rebuilding the 'dismantled' test sites with bigger structures...

Seems they sold the wrecking stage of the necessary modernisations to Trump as dismantling, and now use the excuse of the failed talks to start the new construction phase.

Surprisingly, there was at least one really good poker player sitting at these table, and no surprise, it wasn't Trump...

[mr friendly guy]

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/preside ... d=61871503

President Trump cancels new sanctions targeting North Korea in stunning tweet that overrides his Treasury Dept.
The White House cited Trump's personal friendship with Kim Jong Un.

President Donald Trump made the surprise announcement Friday that he was cancelling a new round of sanctions intended to target North Korea announced only 24 hours earlier by his own administration.

"It was announced today by the U.S. Treasury that additional large scale Sanctions would be added to those already existing Sanctions on North Korea," Trump tweeted after arriving at his Mar a Lago club in Florida. "I have today ordered the withdrawal of those additional Sanctions!"

I have also read, people are scrambling and saying he is referring to future sanctions instead of the sanctions just put out. What a clusterfuck.

[The Romulan Republic]

Man, if Trump isn't conspiring with hostile foreign powers, he sure does a damn good impression of it.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

North Korea has carried out a successful test of a hypersonic missile in a launch attended by leader Kim Jong Un, the country's state media has reported.

A missile is launched during what state media said was a hypersonic missile test in North Korea© Reuters A missile is launched during what state media said was a hypersonic missile test in North Korea
The suspected launch was detected by authorities in South Korea and Japan on Tuesday, leading to condemnation from officials in Washington and Tokyo, and concern from the UN.

After its release from a rocket booster, a hypersonic glide vehicle made a 600km (375 mile) "glide jump flight" and then 240km of "corkscrew manoeuvring" before hitting a target in the sea 1,000km (621 miles) away, North Korea's state news agency KCNA said.

The country's leader Kim Jong Un reportedly attended the launch
The launch was the second reported hypersonic missile test in less than a week.

And South Korea said it appeared to show improved performance, with the weapon travelling more than 700km (435 miles) at a maximum height of 60km (37 miles) and reaching a top speed up to 10 times the speed of sound (7,673mph), although Seoul did not comment on its manoeuvrability.

Unlike ballistic missiles that fly into outer space before returning on steep trajectories, hypersonic weapons head towards targets at lower altitudes.

It was the first time Mr Kim had officially attended a missile launch since March 2020.
And it underscored his New Year's vow to bolster the military with cutting-edge technology at a time when talks with South Korea and the US have stalled.

"The test fire was aimed at the final verification of overall technical specifications of the developed hypersonic weapon system," KCNA reported.

The agency added that "the superior manoeuvrability of the hypersonic glide vehicle was more strikingly verified through the final test fire".

Mr Kim has urged scientists to further 'build up the country's strategic military muscle'.
KCNA also reported that Mr Kim has urged military scientists to "further accelerate the efforts to steadily build up the country's strategic military muscle both in quality and quantity and further modernise the army".

UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres said he was "very concerned" by the latest launch.

And the European Union urged the secretive state to "respond constructively" to US readiness for diplomacy.

Japan also condemned the missile test, saying it undermines peace and security in the region, according to Japanese chief cabinet secretary Hirokazu Matsuno.

"North Korea's actions pose a threat to the peace and security of our country, the broader region, and the entire international community. We strongly condemn such actions," he said at a briefing, News24 reported.

Although North Korea has not tested nuclear bombs or long-range intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs) since 2017, in recent years the country has developed and launched a range of more manoeuvrable missiles.

Hypersonic weapons are considered the next generation of arms that aim to rob enemies of reaction time and traditional defeat mechanisms.

President Joe Biden's administration has said it is open to talking to North Korea, but Pyongyang has said American overtures are empty rhetoric without more substantive changes to "hostile policies" such as military drills and sanctions.

North Korea carries out 'successful test' of hypersonic missile in launch attended by Kim

[Ralin]

Good. I don't know how much of a difference this will make in practical terms, but with the sick man of democracy desperate for a scapegoat to distract from domestic problems any added deterrence on North Korea's part can only be a positive.

[LadyTevar]

Good. I don't know how much of a difference this will make in practical terms, but with the sick man of democracy desperate for a scapegoat to distract from domestic problems any added deterrence on North Korea's part can only be a positive.

BBC Analysts are quoting South Korea sources, which are saying that NORK is once again suffering Starvation, on top of the Covid that "doesn't exist in their country". There's going to be a point where North Korea is going to be unable to hide the collapse, and it's going to be the USSR breakup all over again. The UN is going to try to push "Humanitarian Aid" once that happens, and South Korea is going to be expected to pick up the pieces for a "Unified Korea".

Somehow I doubt any Korean Reunification is going to work. We saw what happened when Germany reunited. North Korea is in even worse shape, with millions of people brainwashed to the point Defectors have tried to return North because South Korea is too big a Culture Shock. There's also been suggestions that some defectors get 'lost' in South Korea's systems, and wind up dissolute and suicidal because they don't have the support to help them overcome the transition.

The question is really "How Long Can Kim Hold It Together". IIRC before Covid there were rumors of a "Purge" of high-ranking members who might cause trouble for Kim, similar to ones back when Kim was first consolidating his power. Kim's not his dad, nor his granddad. There will be a breaking point, and plague atop of starvation is a very nasty hammer.

[Ralin]

BBC Analysts are quoting South Korea sources, which are saying that NORK is once again suffering Starvation, on top of the Covid that "doesn't exist in their country". There's going to be a point where North Korea is going to be unable to hide the collapse, and it's going to be the USSR breakup all over again. The UN is going to try to push "Humanitarian Aid" once that happens, and South Korea is going to be expected to pick up the pieces for a "Unified Korea".

The question is really "How Long Can Kim Hold It Together". IIRC before Covid there were rumors of a "Purge" of high-ranking members who might cause trouble for Kim, similar to ones back when Kim was first consolidating his power. Kim's not his dad, nor his granddad. There will be a breaking point, and plague atop of starvation is a very nasty hammer.

I'll believe it when I see it. The Kim dynasty has no shortage of problems, but if they didn't collapse in the 90s when the actual USSR broke up and they were having cannibalism levels of mass starvation I'm not going to bet on it happening now.

North Korea is in even worse shape, with millions of people brainwashed to the point Defectors have tried to return North because South Korea is too big a Culture Shock. There's also been suggestions that some defectors get 'lost' in South Korea's systems, and wind up dissolute and suicidal because they don't have the support to help them overcome the transition.

Yeah I've heard that too, only less that the North Koreans were/are brainwashed and more that they're people used to a communal worldview where everyone is expected to watch out for their family and neighbors jumping head first into a hyper-capitalist society with little to no safety net that routinely fucks over its own young people, much less foreign asylum seekers with no money, no contacts and nowhere else to go.

Something to bear in mind with defector stories is that the defectors telling them generally aren't stupid and quickly pick up on the fact that people want to hear lurid stories about how horrible life back home was, and that performing that narrative helps their chances of receiving sympathy and support. Coupled with the fact that they're already self-selected to be some of the most dissatisfied people in North Korean since they defected in the first place, which you don't do without a lot of motivation.

This doesn't mean that they shouldn't be listened to or that life was actually great in North Korea, but it's reason to take it all with a grain of salt and bear in mind that they have biases and there are pressures on them to say the right thing.

[Ralin]

Also, I think the part you're missing is that in a North Korean collapse scenario the political and business powers that be in South Korea won't be looking at those millions of North Koreans as citizens to be reintegrated a la Germany. They'll be looking at them as a huge pool of cheap, desperate, easy to mistreat labor waiting to be exploited.

[LadyTevar]

Also, I think the part you're missing is that in a North Korean collapse scenario the political and business powers that be in South Korea won't be looking at those millions of North Koreans as citizens to be reintegrated a la Germany. They'll be looking at them as a huge pool of cheap, desperate, easy to mistreat labor waiting to be exploited.

Shit. I hate that you're right.

[Ralin]

Shit. I hate that you're right.

They'd be doing it now (if they aren't already, I dunno) with some of the limited cross-border enterprises if politics didn't keep getting in the way.

[Broomstick]

It's a bit of a necro but definitely related to this thread. The BBC apparently was able to recently communicate with some people inside North Korea and apparently it's even more of a shit-show than it was pre-covid. Of course, take it with a grain of salt as you should any information about such a closed society, but it does paint a nasty picture:

link

[LadyTevar]

They're going to have another Famine. At this point there's probably no stopping it.

Even then, there won't be a rebellion unless the Military triggers it, and the Kim family has rid the military of anyone with even the slightest chance of overthrowing the dynasty.

The sad part is it might be another 50yrs before it finally crashes down.

[Broomstick]

Hell, the rulers might even be happy to have a famine that reduces the number of mouths to feed.

Pretty sure they're already in a famine.

[LadyTevar]

Hell, the rulers might even be happy to have a famine that reduces the number of mouths to feed.

Pretty sure they're already in a famine.

They'll care when there's no one to farm the food, and no one to dig the coal to run the power plants, and no one to wait on them hand-and-foot.

[Ralin]

I know they've tightened their borders up in the past few years, but have the actual aid organizations confirmed that they stopped accepting food and medicine shipments (other than vaccines, apparently)? Because I gotta say I'm skeptical that Kim Jong-un has rolled the clock back to the cannibalism famines due to a combination of fear of COVID (which is worse than mass starvation?) and pure megalomaniacal evilness. Especially when the article ends with a quote about how much one of their sources (and by implication other North Koreans) would love it if the international community invaded.