UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

[LadyTevar]

Who wants to point out that we are now at the point where people are using Ukraines apologia for fascist war criminals as apologia for other fascist war criminals?

Yep. It's getting deep in here.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I mean there must've been lots of Nazi style death camps and gas chambers and millions of dead, right?

Yes. ~30,000 and ~1.6 million, respectively.

[Zwinmar]

Meanwhile Kids are disappearing from Ukraine into Russia even Russia admits it . The Russian apologies is getting really deep and are full of shit, as usual.

[wautd]

Meanwhile Kids are disappearing from Ukraine into Russia even Russia admits it . The Russian apologies is getting really deep and are full of shit, as usual.

Abducting children by the thousands is horrible enough as it is. That they get "patriotic re-education" where they are taught to hate their own country and receive military training makes it even more perverse. Imagine if Putin would ever get hold of the whole country. A new, large population pool to fight his future imperialist wars of aggression

[The Sisko]

So wait, Stalin wasn't a murderous autocrat and the Soviet Union did nothing wrong? I'd love a thread about this.

[Gandalf]

So wait, Stalin wasn't a murderous autocrat and the Soviet Union did nothing wrong? I'd love a thread about this.

No, but apparently saying that A isn't as bad as B is the same as saying that they're flawless.

[vakundok]

Reading the last few pages, I feel I have to admit that I liked to play Panzer General and sometimes I name my space battleship Bismarc. We all know what that means.

If I would try to summarize these pages, it would look like:
Those Ukrainian nacis are sending the Africa Corps expeditionary force to secure the natural resources of Africa.
I am the only authority to declare who is naci, who is not, and due to my intellectual superiority I can do it from here, I do not need to check meanings and reasons. Your only luck is that, unlike the Russian government, I can not declare this as a hidden termination clause in signed treaties, or a validation to send in an army to liberate the rest from the presence of these declared nacis.

Ukrainians are nacis (let's skip the how it is concluded). Then what? Does it justify an invasion? Does it vilify supporting them fighting against said invasion? Or is it an independent thing, used as a propaganda stunt, to divert attention by raising emotions (if you are asking "then what" then you are supporting the nacis, so let's talk about you)? Not even a new one (including the "humanitarian aid" cover), albeit at the time of the war against Finland this part was more credible.

[Vympel]

I mean there must've been lots of Nazi style death camps and gas chambers and millions of dead, right?

Yes. ~30,000 and ~1.6 million, respectively.

A fucking labor camp isn't a the same thing as a fucking extermination camp, and pretending they're the same is actually a form of Holocaust denial. It's amazing the kind of insane Nazi apologist shit you people are spreading in here. Absolutely brain poisoned by anti-communist rot so hard you're doing implicit Nazi apologetics by minimising the character, scale and intended scope of their crimes. Do you get that?

Yeah if you're going to deny Stalin's atrocities and mass murders, his murderous Gulag system and brush label criticism against Stalinism as anti communist propaganda or some shit then there will be no middle ground between us and further arguing about it is a waste of time. In my eyes you're a negationist who sounds little different than a holocaust denier.

You're the Holocaust denier here. You're wilfully equating the crimes of an expressly genocidal regime which constructed an industrialised system of mass murder of entire ethnic groups it despised with the crimes of a regime which as a matter of objective fact, simply didn't do anything of the kind. This is not subject to debate, you don't even try to debate it, and your seeking to equate a system of forced labor camps with the deliberate industrailsied murder of millions is repulsive in the extreme and highly offensive. No serious scholar - anywhere - would so beclown themselves as to attempt to call the gulag system the equivalent of extermination camps.

What's even more absurd is that you admit that the Nazis killed and would have killed more people than Stalin ever did if they hadn't been destroyed, but absurdly insist - with no reasoning to explain yourself whatsoever- that this somehow doesn't lead one to the conclusion that one was worse than the other!

To top it off you unapologetically cling to an expressly ideological and discredited propaganda pamphlet (the so-called "Black Book of Communism") because its necessary for your world view.

And yeah, Churchil was a POS too. But unlike Stalin, at least he never collaborated with the Nazis.

Oh please, as if you actually care about people collaborating with the Nazis. When confronted with the Ukrainians doing hero worship for actual Nazi collaborators in Ukraine your first and only instinct is to do whataboutism. Stalin's 'collaboration' with the Nazis with Molotov-Ribbentrop is a well known black mark on his diplomatic record. It also took place in the context of literally every single major European power making nice with and entering pacts with Hitler because they thought he would help destroy the USSR for them. Luckily it didn't work out that way for anyone.

Oh, I almost forgot about this gem

Were you talking about the Ukrainian Insurgent Army or the NKVD following Stalin's orders during the Katyn massacre? Because both answers would be correct

Again, absolutely endless whataboutism. Even a country as reactionary and revisionist as Russia acknowledges the crime and condemned Stalin for the massacre over a decade ago, picking up from the USSR's own admissions in the final years of the USSR. By contrast, Ukraine to this day denies the lot. I'm not surprised someone engaging in Holocaust denial and steeped in absurd anti-communist propaganda such as yourself has no stated problem with Ukraine engaging in official hero worship for a guy who willingly fought for the Nazis and to this day denies any and all of his crimes but is instead busying themselves casting about for things to 'whatabout' with.

[Vympel]

I am the only authority to declare who is naci, who is not, and due to my intellectual superiority I can do it from here, I do not need to check meanings and reasons.

Please explain what 'meanings and reasons' make it ok for a state to engage in official Holocaust denial, Nazi collaborator apologetics and glorification, and the establishment and glorification of units adorning themselves in the iconography of the SS?

Identification and condemnation of Nazi shit is literally one of the easiest fucking tasks in public discourse, but I guess we all have to be subjected to fake nuance mongering and "its complicated" mewling because *hand waves* poor Ukraine. Fuck that.

Ukrainians are nacis (let's skip the how it is concluded). Then what? Does it justify an invasion? Does it vilify supporting them fighting against said invasion?

Literally noone said "Ukrainians are Nazis" nor did they say it "justified an invasion", for fuck's sake. The question was asked whether - like last time (May 2023) - the units attacking over the Ukrainian border into Russia were a Nazi unit. They were (partially).

The justification for them was then offered that Ukraine couldn't afford to be choosy as to who fights for them - which as I said previously - is a justifiable argument. However, it was also noted that what this didn't mean was that they needed to establish expressly Nazi-coded units in Nazi regalia and officially glorify them.

Which observation then prompted a wave of whataboutism, anti-communist bullshit and outright Holocaust minimisation from certain posters which is still going.

Nazi apologists have literally always sought to justify and explain away their crimes by appealing to the supposed greater evil of communism. It was one of the chief motivators for the Holocaust - Soviet communism was considered explicitly Jewish in character. The centrality of the idea that the USSR was somehow run by Jews was central to Nazism and the eastern european Nazi collaborators in particular gleefully conniving in the Holocaust, and when their crimes were exposed, they kept it up by insisting that sure, they might've fought for a genocidal regime that gleefully killed millions in service of creating a racially pure ethnostate - but the Judeo Bolsheviks were just as bad! Look at this propaganda some genocidal anti-semite fascist lunatic did that says so! So its all a wash!

And people are still unironically falling for this shit 80 years later, repeating the same brand of lunatic talking points.

[Zaune]

My last word on this particular topic will be this: If anyone deserves a bit of slack for taking the position that there's got to be a strictly limited number of ways the invading forces of Nazism could be any worse than what they already have to put up with, it's someone who lived through the Holodomor. At least in the late 30s to early 40s when there was still reasonable doubt about just how bad it was going to get.

[Vympel]

My last word on this particular topic will be this: If anyone deserves a bit of slack for taking the position that there's got to be a strictly limited number of ways the invading forces of Nazism could be any worse than what they already have to put up with, it's someone who lived through the Holodomor. At least in the late 30s to early 40s when there was still reasonable doubt about just how bad it was going to get.

That's just a Nazi collaborator talking point, and complete bullshit to boot. The overwhelming majority of the Ukrainians (and Russians, and Kazakhs) who suffered through the Soviet famines fought against the Nazis and for the Red Army. Ukrainian Nazi collaborator leaders came from places that were in Poland during the famines (i.e. Galicia). They were never under Soviet rule until 1939.

No. These maniacs fought for the Nazis because they were racist genocidaires who wanted to create a pure Ukrainian ethnostate free of Poles, Jews and Russians, and slaughtered those ethnicities accordingly. They believed that shit before the USSR came and they kept believing it after. They made common cause with the Nazis because they were ideological compatriots. The idea that they were motivated to connive in Nazi genocides and war crimes because they "lived through the Holodomor" is just ahistorical revisionism and completely misunderstands the nature of Ukrainian Nazi collaboration and the ideology of those Ukrainian ultra-nationalists.

[Dominus Atheos]

Nazi's aren't bad because they wear Nazi symbols you lunatic. Nazi's are bad because they advocate for, and previously have committed, mass killings of millions of people deliberately or through other malfeasance. (Ann Frank's death was part of a genocide when she technically died of typhus, as I'm sure no one will dispute.)

No one is buying your shit when you call groups or nations who don't advocate for mass killings Nazis and then in the same post defend groups or nations who have committed similar mass killings.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I mean there must've been lots of Nazi style death camps and gas chambers and millions of dead, right?

Yes. ~30,000 and ~1.6 million, respectively.

A fucking labor camp isn't a the same thing as a fucking extermination camp, and pretending they're the same is actually a form of Holocaust denial. It's amazing the kind of insane Nazi apologist shit you people are spreading in here. Absolutely brain poisoned by anti-communist rot so hard you're doing implicit Nazi apologetics by minimising the character, scale and intended scope of their crimes. Do you get that?

No, it isn't. To qualify as "holocaust denial" it has to contain one or more of the following:

• Nazi Germany's "Final Solution" was aimed only at deporting Jews from the territory of the Third Reich and did not include their extermination.
• Nazi authorities did not use extermination camps and gas chambers for the mass murder of Jews.
• The actual number of Jews murdered is significantly lower than the accepted figure of approximately six million.
• The Holocaust is a hoax perpetrated by the Allies, Jews, or the Soviet Union.

And because there is an absence of such, your claim that it's a form of holocaust denial is complete horseshit. You're the one who is doing the minimising, only it's in relation to the Great Purge instead.

[Gandalf]

To qualify as "holocaust denial" it has to contain one or more of the following:

• Nazi Germany's "Final Solution" was aimed only at deporting Jews from the territory of the Third Reich and did not include their extermination.
• Nazi authorities did not use extermination camps and gas chambers for the mass murder of Jews.
• The actual number of Jews murdered is significantly lower than the accepted figure of approximately six million.
• The Holocaust is a hoax perpetrated by the Allies, Jews, or the Soviet Union.

And because there is an absence of such, your claim that it's a form of holocaust denial is complete horseshit. You're the one who is doing the minimising, only it's in relation to the Great Purge instead.

What's your source there?

[EnterpriseSovereign]

To qualify as "holocaust denial" it has to contain one or more of the following:

• Nazi Germany's "Final Solution" was aimed only at deporting Jews from the territory of the Third Reich and did not include their extermination.
• Nazi authorities did not use extermination camps and gas chambers for the mass murder of Jews.
• The actual number of Jews murdered is significantly lower than the accepted figure of approximately six million.
• The Holocaust is a hoax perpetrated by the Allies, Jews, or the Soviet Union.

And because there is an absence of such, your claim that it's a form of holocaust denial is complete horseshit. You're the one who is doing the minimising, only it's in relation to the Great Purge instead.

What's your source there?

Here, because although it's common knowledge what the Nazis did I couldn't express it any better myself.

[Gandalf]

Here, because although it's common knowledge what the Nazis did I couldn't express it any better myself.

If you're going to cite glorious Wikipedia on the subject, scroll down to the part where the page mentions "soft core" denial by likening it to other historical atrocities.

I wouldn't even be inclined to put the British Empire's various Imperial atrocities against my people as being near the Holocaust.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Here, because although it's common knowledge what the Nazis did I couldn't express it any better myself.

If you're going to cite glorious Wikipedia on the subject, scroll down to the part where the page mentions "soft core" denial by likening it to other historical atrocities.

I wouldn't even be inclined to put the British Empire's various Imperial atrocities against my people as being near the Holocaust.

You mean this?

In "Secondary Anti-Semitism: From Hard-Core to Soft-Core Denial of the Shoah", Clemens Heni [de] writes:

Contrary to the hard-core version, soft-core denial is often not easily identifiable. Often it is tolerated, or even encouraged and reproduced in the mainstream, not only in Germany. Scholars have only recently begun to unravel this disturbing phenomenon. Manfred Gerstenfeld discusses Holocaust trivialization in an article published in 2008. In Germany in 2007 two scholars, Thorsten Eitz and Georg Stötzel, published a voluminous dictionary of German language and discourse regarding National Socialism and the Holocaust. It includes chapters on Holocaust trivialization and contrived comparisons, such as the infamous "atomic Holocaust", "Babycaust", "Holocaust of abortion", "red Holocaust" or "biological Holocaust"

But even that is needlessly complicated, the very first line in the article states that "Holocaust denial is an antisemitic conspiracy theory that asserts that the Nazi genocide of Jews, known as the Holocaust, is a fabrication or exaggeration". And since I made no such assertions, the idea that it is somehow holocaust denial is nothing but a massive strawman.

Going any further is going to devolve into a comparison of Nazism and Stalinism.

[Vympel]

Nazi's aren't bad because they wear Nazi symbols you lunatic. Nazi's are bad because they advocate for, and previously have committed, mass killings of millions of people deliberately or through other malfeasance. (Ann Frank's death was part of a genocide when she technically died of typhus, as I'm sure no one will dispute.)

No one is buying your shit when you call groups or nations who don't advocate for mass killings Nazis and then in the same post defend groups or nations who have committed similar mass killings.

Trying to imagine what it’s like to assert with a straight face that proudly wearing Nazi symbols and glorifying Nazi collaboration says nothing about whether they agree with Nazi ideology. Amazing stuff.

We are at a level of Nazi apologia where western liberals are like “sure they adorn themselves with Nazi symbols and glorify Nazi collaborators but they’re not so bad because unlike their heroes they haven’t yet had the opportunity to conduct genocide against all the ethnic groups they hate!”

Fucking amazing stuff.

The reality is you’re so ignorant about Nazi ideology in Ukraine that it’s embarrassing. That they’re white supremacist anti semites who call for the ethnic cleansing of Ukraine and race war is well recorded, not that anyone should need to be told this because that’s what groups who adorn themselves in Nazi shit always fucking believe!

And another thing, the way you and your ilk consistently flatten what I’ve actually said - that Ukraine has a pretty obvious Nazi problem - with the absurd strawman that “Ukrainians are Nazis” - is an implicit admission that you have to hide behind absurd distortions because you’d rather spout inane pieties knocking down this strawman than reckon with the actual reality of the situation.

[Dominus Atheos]

The "white supremacist anti semites" who take orders from a country led by a jewish person and who allegedly want to genocide russians, who are white? Those "white supremacist anti semites"?

No one is buying you shit when you say "Ukraine has a pretty obvious Nazi problem" when you can't actually point to any of the nazis calling for genocide since the jewish person was elected in the country.

[Dominus Atheos]

Also, you were talking about the holodomor and the soviet genocides of Poles and others being just incomparable to the Holocaust. Like you were getting the dithers that anyone could bring them up in the same thought.

On the Nazi scale of 1-10, 10 being Hitler: Stalin was like an 8, maybe a 9. The "Nazis in Ukraine" are like a 3 or 4.

[madd0c0t0r2]

I should probably stop pushing Vymple's buttons, even if the talking point reactions are a good insight into the storyline on the Russian side of the minefield

[Vympel]

The "white supremacist anti semites" who take orders from a country led by a jewish person-

You sound absolutely ridiculous. Next thing you're going to tell me that the US has no issues with systemic racism because they elected Obama.

Just a total denial of the systems and mechanisms of power in the state in favour of childish pablum centered on personalities. Jesus Fucking Christ.

I literally just posted a tweet of the former President of Ukraine - Zelensky's immediate predecessor - doing hagiography for one of Ukraine's most notrious Nazi collaborators and you're sitting here telling me that there's no issue. The just dismissed former CIC of their armed forces has been signalling openly to Ukraine's far right for months, and I showed that too. But yeah, no issue.

The race of the President doesn't mean anything. Nazis aren't all so fucking stupid that they wouldn't willingly use a government that is quite obviously too foolish and cowardly to take steps to marginalise them in order to strengthen themselves, and that is exactly what Zelensky and his predecessors have been indulging for a decade at this point.

Here's just one example. The Azov Battalion is led by Andriy Biletsky. What kind of man is he? Let's see:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28329329

Andriy Biletsky is also the leader of a Ukrainian organisation called the Social National Assembly. Its aims are stated in one of their online publications:

"to prepare Ukraine for further expansion and to struggle for the liberation of the entire White Race from the domination of the internationalist speculative capital"

"to punish severely sexual perversions and any interracial contacts that lead to the extinction of the white man"

This, according to experts, is a typical neo-Nazi narrative.

Spoiler alert: you absoutely do not need to be an expert in neo-Nazis to know this is Nazi shit.

And here he is today, paling around with the current head of Ukraine's armed forces.

https://twitter.com/mossrobeson__/statu ... 7630585015



And here is with Zelensky himself:



If you do not understand how insanely dangerous this is, you are delusional.

I grow tired of explaining this to incurious rah-rah Ukraine western liberals who apparently have no idea how systems of power work, but for the last time - the reason a neo-Nazi scumbag like this gets to visibly pal around with the highest commanders and politicians in the country - the reason why the government persistently engages in neo-Nazi and Nazi glorification - is really very simple. These scum have power within the system. The government kowtows to them and legitimises them and gives them their own special units etc because to deny them is politically and personally inexpedient for them.

That's what you call a big-ass Nazi problem.

and who allegedly want to genocide russians, who are white?

Oh my god dude. Why are you presuming to talk about this stuff at all when you clearly don't know anything about Ukrainian nazi ideology?

Russians are not whites to Ukrainian Nazis. Their psychotic race science deems them asiatics and 'Finno-Urgic' mongoloids. You'd know this if you had literally any idea what you're talking about before presuming to argue a point.

No one is buying you shit when you say "Ukraine has a pretty obvious Nazi problem" when you can't actually point to any of the nazis calling for genocide-

ROFLMAO what an amazing evidentiary standard. "If you can't point to any of the Nazis calling for genocide loudly enough for me to perosnally hear, there's no Nazi problem!"

You're quite literally saying you see no issue with Nazis so long as you're not aware of them loudly calling for genocide. It's batshit. By that standard you'd have been fine with the Nazis in Germany in the 1930s!

And sorry, but who's "no one" here? You? You are at this point well established to know nothing about anything to do with Ukrainian Nazis. You have given it absolutely no thought whatsoever. You are so clearly not the standard. Ukraine's Nazi problem has been a widely reported problem in the mainstream media for years at this point. Nothing I'm saying is the least bit controversial or new. You just don't like hearing it because it complicates whatever manichean moral story you apparently need to hear to oppose a war of aggression.

You could just be normal and condemn the normalisation of Nazism while still opposing an unjustified war of aggression. It'd be a hell of a lot easier than whatever the hell is going on here.

https://t.co/bV56Svn1l2

Ukraine celebrates Nazi Collaborator, bans book critical of pogrom leader:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ukraine-c ... ms-leader/

The literal NATO-aligned Atlantic Council, on Ukraine's government funding a neo-Nazi group directly to educate kids:

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/u ... -headline/

It sounds like the stuff of Kremlin propaganda, but it's not. Last week Hromadske Radio revealed that Ukraine's Ministry of Youth and Sports is funding the neo-Nazi group C14 to promote "national patriotic education projects" in the country.

https://forward.com/opinion/401518/viol ... -standing/

A wave of anti-Semitism has swept over Ukraine. In the past three weeks alone, a far-right leader publicly called for cleansing Ukraine of zhidi (a slur equivalent to "kike"); a Holocaust memorial in Ternopil was bombed; hundreds marched through Lviv, in honor of an SS unit, complete with Nazi salutes; "Death to Zhidi" graffiti was scrawled in two cities; a revered rabbi's tomb was vandalized; a Romani camp in Kiev was attacked and burned by far-right nationalists, and hundreds rocked out at a neo-Nazi concert clad in swastikas and throwing up Nazi salutes.

The Nation, on the rise of far-right nationalism:

https://www.thenation.com/article/polit ... t-ukraine/

Today, increasing reports of far-right violence, ultranationalism, and erosion of basic freedoms are giving the lie to the West's initial euphoria. There are neo-Nazi pogroms against the Roma, rampant attacks on feminists and LGBT groups, book bans, and state-sponsored glorification of Nazi collaborators.

These stories of Ukraine's dark nationalism aren't coming out of Moscow; they're being filed by Western media, including US-funded Radio Free Europe (RFE); Jewish organizations such as the World Jewish Congress and the Simon Wiesenthal Center; and watchdogs like Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and Freedom House, which issued a joint report warning that Kiev is losing the monopoly on the use of force in the country as far-right gangs operate with impunity.

Times of Israel, on glorification of holocaust deniers

https://www.timesofisrael.com/jerusalem ... t-deniers/

NBC News on Ukraine's Nazi problem:

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/u ... cna1290946

In another ominous development, Ukraine has in recent years erected a glut of statues honoring Ukrainian nationalists whose legacies are tainted by their indisputable record as Nazi proxies. The Forward newspaper cataloged some of these deplorables, including Stepan Bandera, leader of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN), whose followers acted as local militia members for the SS and German army. "Ukraine has several dozen monuments and scores of street names glorifying this Nazi collaborator, enough to require two separate Wikipedia pages," the Forward wrote.

Another frequent honoree is Roman Shukhevych, revered as a Ukrainian freedom fighter but also the leader of a feared Nazi auxiliary police unit that the Forward notes was "responsible for butchering thousands of Jews and … Poles." Statues have also been raised for Yaroslav Stetsko, a one-time chair of the OUN, who wrote "I insist on the extermination of the Jews in Ukraine."

Then from inside Ukraine, the Ukrainian Jewish Committee has been cataloguing this shit at all levels etc. for years:

https://x.com/edolinsky/status/1397872989174042629?s=20

https://twitter.com/edolinsky/status/14 ... L-lqNp4yHQ

https://twitter.com/edolinsky/status/14 ... L-lqNp4yHQ

https://twitter.com/edolinsky/status/14 ... L-lqNp4yHQ

https://twitter.com/edolinsky/status/14 ... L-lqNp4yHQ

https://twitter.com/edolinsky/status/14 ... L-lqNp4yHQ

https://twitter.com/edolinsky/status/14 ... L-lqNp4yHQ

https://twitter.com/edolinsky/status/14 ... L-lqNp4yHQ

https://twitter.com/edolinsky/status/14 ... L-lqNp4yHQ

https://x.com/edolinsky/status/1764558601148862536?s=20

https://x.com/edolinsky/status/1755200753763774601?s=20

It goes on and on and on and on and on.

Also, you were talking about the holodomor and the soviet genocides of Poles and others being just incomparable to the Holocaust. Like you were getting the dithers that anyone could bring them up in the same thought.

Yeah, because that's quite obviously idiotic. Not hard, this stuff.

But even that is needlessly complicated, the very first line in the article states that "Holocaust denial is an antisemitic conspiracy theory that asserts that the Nazi genocide of Jews, known as the Holocaust, is a fabrication or exaggeration". And since I made no such assertions, the idea that it is somehow holocaust denial is nothing but a massive strawman.

Going any further is going to devolve into a comparison of Nazism and Stalinism.

It's amazing watching someone deny they are engaging in Holocaust denial becuase of the first line of an entry on wikipedia. Trivialising and equivocating the events of the Holocaust to objectively less severe crimes is an act of denial*. There is no equivalence between 'Nazism' and 'Stalinsim' and I've already exhaustively explained why, you're just so steeped in anti-communist propaganda you simply don't see anything wrong with asserting that the expressly genocidal state which, had it won, would've exterminated 100 million people in eastern europe and Russia is somehow the same as the state which did literally nothing of the kind.

*If you doubt this, here's an idea, go tell a Jewish Holocaust survivor that his experience in Aushcwitz is identical to the experience of a Japanese man in a US internment camp, see how well that goes over for you.

[Dominus Atheos]

You sound absolutely ridiculous. Next thing you're going to tell me that the US has no issues with systemic racism because they elected Obama.

Well at least there aren't any openly nazi groups operating officially under the us military calling for genocide since they elected Obama. Something the US and ukraine after zelensky have in common.

Oh my god dude. Why are you presuming to talk about this stuff at all when you clearly don't know anything about Ukrainian nazi ideology?

So it's different from hitlerite nazi ideology but you swear that they are still nazis? Fancy that.

And here he is today, paling around with the current head of Ukraine's armed forces.

Today being 10 years later. Has he called for genocide or unjust violence since Zelensky was elected? If they haven't, then Zelensky the jew has fixed Ukraine's nazi problem, hasn't he?

You're quite literally saying you see no issue with Nazis so long as you're not aware of them loudly calling for genocide. It's batshit. By that standard you'd have been fine with the Nazis in Germany in the 1930s!

Remind me when the world decided hitler needed to be stopped? It was when they started killing people. Violence is the defining feature of Nazism.

Then from inside Ukraine, the Ukrainian Jewish Committee has been cataloguing this shit at all levels etc. for years:

None of those links work. Anyway, are they calling for violence except to defend themselves from Putins invasion? They are only the bad dangerous kind of nazi if they advocate unjust violence. You can call all the others nazis all you want, but no one in this thread or anyone else is buying it when you say "Ukraine has a pretty obvious Nazi problem". No one here but you believe that.

*If you doubt this, here's an idea, go tell a Jewish Holocaust survivor that his experience in Aushcwitz is identical to the experience of a Japanese man in a US internment camp, see how well that goes over for you.

I think the best people to compare would be one of the 400,000 polish survivors of Siberia out of 1.7 million poles who were sent there.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2007/a ... s.filmnews

In 1992 she bought a camera, taught herself the craft and started recording the testimonies of the dwindling witnesses to the Siberian genocide. Around 20% of those deported were Jewish; of the 1.7 million total, it is estimated that around 400,000 survived. Jagna teamed up with a fellow Pole, Aneta Naszynska, a professional editor, and working for two years in their spare time with no financial or professional backers, they produced a harrowing documentary.

Said Documentary:



1.3 million dead poles would seem to be a nazi style genocide to me.

[Vympel]

Well at least there aren't any openly nazi groups operating officially under the us military calling for genocide since they elected Obama. Something the US and ukraine after zelensky have in common.

Does the US have open neo-Nazi units in Ukraine? Did Obama pal around with notorious neo-Nazis?

So it's different from hitlerite nazi ideology but you swear that they are still nazis? Fancy that.

Are you fucking out of your mind? The fucking original Nazis didn't consider the Russians whites either! That's was their justification for trying to exterminate them! Jesus fucking christ, you're not only ignorant of Ukrainian Nazis, you're ignorant of Nazis, period.

That's before we even talk about your insane attempt to argue what any serious expert will and does call a Ukrainian nazi as somehow not a Nazi because of the particular brand of race science they believe, lmao.

I've got to hand it to you, this is the first time I've ever seen someone presented with Nazis who not only hold expressly, explicit, Nazi beliefs, glorify historical Nazis and openly adorn themselves with historical Nazi symbols who then nontheless has the sheer bravery to then assert they do not have a "hitlerite nazi ideology" and are not Nazis at all.

Today being 10 years later. Has he called for genocide or unjust violence since Zelensky was elected? If they haven't, then Zelensky the jew has fixed Ukraine's nazi problem, hasn't he?

... Jesus Fucking Christ you are beyond help. What, you think an avowed neo-Nazi spouting avowed neo-Nazi rhetoric and who right now is leading a unit filled with hardcore neo-Nazis changed?

Did the election of Zelensky inspire him? Did he hear The West Wing theme song when it happened and turn over a new leaf?

I explained at length the obvious fact that Nazis in positions of power will use their proximity to power to strengthen themselves and the clear willingness of power centers to legitimise and indulge them - as opposed to exclude them from power - is obviously extremely dangerous.

You have no answer to that, instead you state that the mere existence of "Zelensky the jew" fixed Nazism.

You can't possibly be serious. At best, you're just digging in your heels and acting the great fool with churlish arguments because you find that preferable to conceding you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

At worst, you are genuinely so clueless you cannot conceive of where the toleration, legitimisation and glorification of an armed cadre of Nazis could end up going. Even though we have historical precedent.

Remind me when the world decided hitler needed to be stopped? It was when they started killing people. Violence is the defining feature of Nazism.

...Do you think it was good that the world decided Hitler needed to be stopped after he started genociding people? You don't think maybe someone should've pointed out people with insanely racist exterminationist beliefs being in positions of power might be bad ... before hand?

You're literally apologising for Ukrainian nazis by implicitly arguing that EVEN NAZI GERMANY DIDN'T HAVE A NAZI PROBLEM UNTIL THEY STARTED KILLING PEOPLE.

If you had lived during the 1930s, by this standard you'd have said Nazi Germany didn't have a Nazi problem even as they were fucking burning books and shutting Jews out of public life. You sound fucking insane.

None of those links work.

They work just fine. It's called having a twitter account.

Anyway, are they calling for violence except to defend themselves from Putins invasion? They are only the bad dangerous kind of nazi if they advocate unjust violence

WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!

Every fucking Nazi is a "bad dangerous kind of nazi". Its inherent in the ideology. It is by definition both genocidal and violent.

And I'm literally providing you with links from the Ukrainian Jewish Committee documenting virulent antisemitism and glorification of Nazis and you're like "ummmm but are they calling for violence? They're only bad Nazis if they're calling for violence!"

Nothing wrong with a society that treats Nazis as the heroes, nope. It only becomes a problem if they 'call for unjust violence'. Otherwise, do carry on with your tolerance for antisemitic conspiracy theories, race science, and hatred of minorities.

Check your insanely high level of privilege and ask yourself if just maybe, living in a society which tolerates open Nazism might be bad for the people living in it.

You know, like happened in the past?

I mean for example, I just showed you a link about a Ukrainian government minsitry enlisting Nazis to teach kids, but you know. Ignore that

You can call all the others nazis all you want, but no one in this thread or anyone else is buying it when you say "Ukraine has a pretty obvious Nazi problem". No one here but you believe that.

That must be why I just posted fucking umpteen links about Ukraine's Nazi problem from the mainstream media going back years. Because "no one in this thread or anyone else" is buying it.

If you're gonna be so insistent on buttressing your ridiculous bullshit by self-consciously and robotically declaring over and over what "people in this thread" are buying, I'm actually pretty confident in fact that your decent into open Nazi minimisation is not going to find a lot of agreement here.

Even the types who prefer to deflect to whataboutism have never stooped to trying to divide Nazis into 'safe' and 'dangerous' categories like you've just done.

1.3 million dead poles would seem to be a nazi style genocide to me.

Of course you would say that, because you're more interested in engaging in the trivialisation of the Holocaust by trying to equate Nazi and Soviet crimes (that's before we even get to the fact that this '1,700,000' figure is attested to absolutely nowhere else I can see but in blurbs for this amateur documentary) than engaging in a remotely honest accounting of the difference between an expressly genocidal regime which expressly planned to wipe out nigh on 100 million people from Poland to the Urals and a regime which didn't plan - nor did - anything of the kind.

[Ralin]

No one is buying you shit when you say "Ukraine has a pretty obvious Nazi problem" when you can't actually point to any of the nazis calling for genocide since the jewish person was elected in the country.

Being a Nazi is calling for genocide. That's very much the point of Nazism. Barring some weird fringe offshoot of self-declared Nazis who occupy themselves entirely with providing good nutrition, medicine and prenatal care for white babies or something which I guess could theoretically happen.

Anyway it's unfortunate that apparently some of the Russians taking up arms against Putin are Nazis but it's good that they aren't all Nazis. I hope the Ukrainian military leadership is keeping an eye on them. Though as Vympel says, obviously they have a lot on their collective plate right now.