Terrorist attack in Riyadh

[Col. Crackpot]

Actually, the way to really terrorize America, in my opinion, is to NOT do something in New York or a big city. That doesn't scare people really. After all, Columbine only really terrified people, despite school shootings happening in big cities for decades, because most of America in rural and suburban areas never thought it would happen to them. When it did, the outcry and sheer bullshit policies it generated was huge. Suddenly, people realized that it wasn't something that just happened in big cities a thousand miles away, but could happen to them.

So what I would do is I'd go to a moderately wealthy suburban/rural community, wait for a big football game or something, bomb it, and make it really obvious that Islamic terrorists did it. Then a week later, do it again in another state. And again and again. Attacking the heartland of America would be perfect for causing terror, since small towns and communities everywhere would think that if it could happen to them, it could happen to us! I would have half the country running around in circles crying chicken little. After all, if it happens in New York City, people in Podunk USA are mad, but they expect it to happen. If Podunk USA gets bombed, all the other Podunks get terrified.

true, it would terrorize, but goddamnit the reprecussions would be earth shattering. every soccer mom and joe sixpack would be screaming bloody murder and demanding firey vengance. The psycology of the average suburban and rural dweller is far different from that of the urbanite. They are far more conservative and accustomed to the safety and security that they have grown acusstomed to in their rural/suburban lifestyle. There would be a volcanic eruption of anger and no diplomat or politician wold be able to calm the masses without anything short of war.

[Next of Kin]

I thought that by taking out Hussein that the U.S. would deal a death blow to Al-Qaeda

[Col. Crackpot]

I thought that by taking out Hussein that the U.S. would deal a death blow to Al-Qaeda

no one ever made that claim...and if they did not only are they are foolish, but they did not speak on behlaf of the Bush Administration. However i do belive that elininating terrorist training camps in northern iraq did help to further cripple Al Qae'da's abilities. A few hundred operatives were rounded up and their weapons destroyed. The Iraq campaign most certainly cut off a large flow of money to Palostinian suicide bombers.

[Darth Wong]

I thought that by taking out Hussein that the U.S. would deal a death blow to Al-Qaeda

no one ever made that claim...and if they did not only are they are foolish, but they did not speak on behlaf of the Bush Administration. However i do belive that elininating terrorist training camps in northern iraq did help to further cripple Al Qae'da's abilities.

I seriously doubt that any of the major Al-Quaeda operations were co-ordinated from those camps.

A few hundred operatives were rounded up and their weapons destroyed. The Iraq campaign most certainly cut off a large flow of money to Palostinian suicide bombers.

And what do Palestinian suicide bombers have to do with Al-Quaeda? I wasn't aware that the war in Iraq was conducted for Israel's benefit.

Saudi Arabia has always been the primary source of Al-Quaeda's power and money. That has not changed.

[Axis Kast]

Remember Wong, many people – including myself – are still fervent believers in the notion that al-Qaeda is made more dangerous by continued access to strong periphery groups such as Hamas, the Islamic Jihad, and Hizbollah. While the leadership of those organizations have been understandably wont to identify their goals directly with those of Osama Bin Laden (preferring to not yet embrace the ‘global’ concepts of the al-Qaeda network), it is believed that hundreds if not thousands of Palestinians sympathize with and could become willing converts to anti-American Islamofascism. There are significant fears that bombers and technicians trained in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, or Bekka Valley will flock to al-Qaeda’s banner unofficially, swelling Bin Laden’s ranks and bringing with them a gamut of skills first acquired in the war on Zionism.

Now where does Saddam Hussein fit in? He was a clear advocate of Palestinian liberation from the beginning. Until 1991, a string of camps throughout Iraq were designed to train terrorist operatives. There is similarly strong evidence that al-Qaeda operatives communicated heavily with Iraq even after the Gulf War, specifically in an effort to cultivate lasting ties with Hussein’s regime. Certainly the elimination of the Ba’ath dictatorship eliminates one of Palestinian liberation groups’ most important figureheads – as well as a likely source of weapons, money, and intelligence.

Nobody denies that Saudi Arabia is a supporter of terrorism. But it’s also a red herring (or is it non-sequiter?) to shout, “Saudi Arabia first!” every time the question of Iraqi links to al-Qaeda arise. We can deal with both at once, you realize.

[Next of Kin]

The Iraq campaign most certainly cut off a large flow of money to Palostinian suicide bombers.

So you have proof that Saddam was an Al-Qaeda sugar daddy?

[Darth Wong]

While the leadership of those organizations have been understandably wont to identify their goals directly with those of Osama Bin Laden (preferring to not yet embrace the ‘global’ concepts of the al-Qaeda network), it is believed that hundreds if not thousands of Palestinians sympathize with and could become willing converts to anti-American Islamofascism.

Not surprising, since America unabashedly sends arms to their principal enemies. What does this have to do with Al-Quaeda? Are you seriously suggesting that Al-Quaeda is the cause of anti-American sentiment in Palestine? Surely you're joking.

Now where does Saddam Hussein fit in? He was a clear advocate of Palestinian liberation from the beginning.

So is Noam Chomsky. So what?

Nobody denies that Saudi Arabia is a supporter of terrorism. But it’s also a red herring (or is it non-sequiter?) to shout, “Saudi Arabia first!” every time the question of Iraqi links to al-Qaeda arise. We can deal with both at once, you realize.

And how does this answer the question "what do Palestinian suicide bombers have to do with Al-Quaeda?", posed in my last post? How much support did Al-Quaeda really get from Iraq as opposed to any other nation
in that area?

[Axis Kast]

So you have proof that Saddam was an Al-Qaeda sugar daddy?

It’s come down to opinion. Some believe Saddam was guilty, and others do not. Looking at the history, I’d say the Colonel is correct. Saddam was almost certainly an al-Qaeda “sugar daddy” after the scare in 1998, even if indirectly – i.e. through Palestinian channels. We also know that he sought to develop ties to the organization in the recent past, of course.

Not surprising, since America unabashedly sends arms to their principal enemies. What does this have to do with Al-Quaeda? Are you seriously suggesting that Al-Quaeda is the cause of anti-American sentiment in Palestine? Surely you're joking.

“Principle enemies” being defined as … ?

If you’re referring to Iran, Iraq, and Afghanistan, then that statement should read: “… since American unabashedly sends arms to what usually become their principal enemies.” That does not imply that assistance rendered Hussein in ’81, the Shah in ’78, or the Mudjaheen throughout that era were blunders or missteps. At all times, the arms transfers served American purposes.

Did you actually read the damn reply, Wong, or are you just talking out of your ass again? What does this have to do with al-Qaeda? It means that supporters of Palestinian terrorism are inadvertently arming the next generation of Osama Bin Laden’s fanatics, culled from the ranks of groups with already lengthy histories of violence themselves.

So is Noam Chomsky. So what?

“So what?” Saddam Hussein financed terrorist training centers until 1991, that’s what. His intelligence community sought to develop lasting ties to the al-Qaeda network, that’s what.

And how does this answer the question "what do Palestinian suicide bombers have to do with Al-Quaeda?", posed in my last post? How much support did Al-Quaeda really get from Iraq as opposed to any other nation in that area?

For a second time, I’m going to ask whether you read what I wrote before spouting the usual torrent of criticism. “What do Palestinian suicide bombers have to do with al-Qaeda?” Palestinian terrorists routinely sympathize with and are sometimes moved to join al-Qaeda. Stamping on the one inevitably hurts the other.

How much support did al-Qaeda get from others? Red herring. The question is whether or not they got support from Iraq. The answer looks to be yes.

Since when is there a universal law demanding that only the largest and most visible or strongest state sponsors of terrorism must be our first targets? Who says we can’t go for the easier and more attractive (albeit smaller) sponsors first?

Are you suggesting you’d have supported an invasion of Saudi Arabia any more than an invasion of Iraq?

[Next of Kin]

It’s come down to opinion. Some believe Saddam was guilty, and others do not. Looking at the history, I’d say the Colonel is correct. Saddam was almost certainly an al-Qaeda “sugar daddy” after the scare in 1998, even if indirectly – i.e. through Palestinian channels. We also know that he sought to develop ties to the organization in the recent past, of course.

That's great that you have an opinion Axis but it doesn't make it any more true. Can you serve up a dollar amount? Why bother? You haven't been able to do so before.

[Axis Kast]

Geopolitics is grounded in educated assumptions.

While my evidence is admittadly circumstantial, it certainly paints a very damning - and ultimately convincing from my government's point of view - picture of events in the Middle East.

A dollar amount? Of course not. I doubt that even the intelligence community would do something such as that.

Don't forget that you're bucking history here. We know that Saddam sought to strengthen ties to al-Qaeda. We know Israel is arresting Palestinian terrorists and charging them with dual ties to both HAMAS and Hizbollah as well as al-Qaeda. We know that Hussein ran numerous camps - in the open - for Palestinian terrorists to 1991.

[Striderteen]

I think we need to rethink our entire Middle East strategy. The present strategy of sending Israel billions of dollars worth of military and economic aid and being hammered by fanatical Islamic terrorists has gone on long enough; it's long since past time we stepped back and took a serious look at who we are supporting and for what reasons.

A public referendum on whether or not we should be involved at all in the Middle East, and if so whether or not we should be supporting Israel, would be a good first step. Personally, I believe we should be involved in trying to end the conflict, but we should NOT support Israel. I believe we should play the role of a NEUTRAL mediator.

[Axis Kast]

think we need to rethink our entire Middle East strategy. The present strategy of sending Israel billions of dollars worth of military and economic aid and being hammered by fanatical Islamic terrorists has gone on long enough; it's long since past time we stepped back and took a serious look at who we are supporting and for what reasons.

A public referendum on whether or not we should be involved at all in the Middle East, and if so whether or not we should be supporting Israel, would be a good first step. Personally, I believe we should be involved in trying to end the conflict, but we should NOT support Israel. I believe we should play the role of a NEUTRAL mediator.

Palestinians naturally dislike the United States on the basis of our support for Israel, but never make the mistake of assuming that Osama Bin Laden’s al-Qaeda organization has predicated its global Islamofascist doctrine solely upon the objective of Palestinian liberation.

Israel, for all the criticism of our government’s position, is indeed a valuable ally. Not only does the Israeli Defense Force provide an effective means of intimidating others in the region, but Tel Aviv is a major technological contributor to the United States armed forces. The relationship works both ways; often, it is Israeli soldiers that test weaponry destined for deployment with the United States. That’s also exclusive of the massive boon of Mossad’s assistance and cooperation. As one of the most effective intelligence agencies on the planet, Israel’s is important to keep as a major ally.

[Sea Skimmer]

Israel, for all the criticism of our government’s position, is indeed a valuable ally. Not only does the Israeli Defense Force provide an effective means of intimidating others in the region, but Tel Aviv is a major technological contributor to the United States armed forces. The relationship works both ways; often, it is Israeli soldiers that test weaponry destined for deployment with the United States. That’s also exclusive of the massive boon of Mossad’s assistance and cooperation. As one of the most effective intelligence agencies on the planet, Israel’s is important to keep as a major ally.

Israel also conducted rather extensive training of the USMC for MOUT before the invasion of Iraq and also now has allowed the US to preposition equipment on its soil, though what type and amount has not been released.

[Col. Crackpot]

The Iraq campaign most certainly cut off a large flow of money to Palostinian suicide bombers.

So you have proof that Saddam was an Al-Qaeda sugar daddy?

no, but i will say two things. he permitted terrorist training camps to fester in the northwest, and he sent $20,000 to every palistinian suicide bomber.

[Vympel]

no, but i will say two things. he permitted terrorist training camps to fester in the northwest, and he sent $20,000 to every palistinian suicide bomber.

He sent money to the *families* of dead suicide bombers, and also to those wounded and killed (no bombs involved).

And who are we kidding here? How much fucking money do you need to blow some brainwashed islamic fundie to smithereens? 500 bucks?

[Col. Crackpot]

no, but i will say two things. he permitted terrorist training camps to fester in the northwest, and he sent $20,000 to every palistinian suicide bomber.

He sent money to the *families* of dead suicide bombers, and also to those wounded and killed (no bombs involved).

And who are we kidding here? How much fucking money do you need to blow some brainwashed islamic fundie to smithereens? 500 bucks?

the people doing the bombings are all HAMAS and Al-Askqa radical militants, and so are the families. do you honestly think for a second that this money is going to buy schools and food and clothes? bullshit! if you're telling me you belive that you are either lying to cling to a political point or painfull naieve.

[Vympel]

the people doing the bombings are all HAMAS and Al-Askqa radical militants, and so are the families.

That's fucking insane, stereotypical bullshit- they're ALL militants I guess. You'd make great IDF recruiting material. We all know why Saddam was doing it, and that was because it was great PR for his regime among the Arabs. The Saudis also do it, as do a few others.

do you honestly think for a second that this money is going to buy schools and food and clothes? bullshit!

Care to explain how the Palestinian authority builds all its infrastructure, then?- before Israel destroys it in the latest raid, I mean. Foreign aid.

if you're telling me you belive that you are either lying to cling to a political point or painfull naieve.

Answer the question. You think it costs millions in dollars in aid to blow up brainwashed kids with nothing to live for? The Palestinian militant groups are the most poorly armed, unsuccsful insurgent group ever. If *half* the money you claimed was going into their evil terrorist militant coffers, they'd be blowing up Israeli tanks every other day- with RPGs and ATGMs, rather than rocks and the occasional makeshift mine.

[Col. Crackpot]

the people doing the bombings are all HAMAS and Al-Askqa radical militants, and so are the families.

That's fucking insane, stereotypical bullshit- they're ALL militants I guess. You'd make great IDF recruiting material. We all know why Saddam was doing it, and that was because it was great PR for his regime among the Arabs. The Saudis also do it, as do a few others.

do you honestly think for a second that this money is going to buy schools and food and clothes? bullshit!

Care to explain how the Palestinian authority builds all its infrastructure, then?- before Israel destroys it in the latest raid, I mean. Foreign aid.

if you're telling me you belive that you are either lying to cling to a political point or painfull naieve.

Answer the question. You think it costs millions in dollars in aid to blow up brainwashed kids with nothing to live for? The Palestinian militant groups are the most poorly armed, unsuccsful insurgent group ever. If *half* the money you claimed was going into their evil terrorist militant coffers, they'd be blowing up Israeli tanks every other day- with RPGs and ATGMs, rather than rocks and the occasional makeshift mine.

you know what, this is disintegrating into an israel vs palestine thread...hijacked by a fucking mod no less. a point before you lock the israel vs palestine debate you steered us into:

they are the radicals because they are the ones blowing themselves up! it isn't sterotyping! you can't honestly fucking tell me that that money that goes to the families of suicede bombers ( the most radical of the radicals doesn't go strat to fucking hamas to build more bombs!

[Darth Wong]

you know what, this is disintegrating into an israel vs palestine thread...hijacked by a fucking mod no less. a point before you lock the israel vs palestine debate you steered us into:

Don't be silly, Crackpot. This thread was steered into I/P territory because somebody had the bright idea of tying the terrorist attack in Saudi Arabia to Palestine. It wasn't Vympel's fault, so don't throw stones from a glass house.

they are the radicals because they are the ones blowing themselves up! it isn't sterotyping!

It is when you assume that their families are also radicals. Was Tim McVeigh's family described as "anti-American violent radicals" after what HE did?

you can't honestly fucking tell me that that money that goes to the families of suicede bombers ( the most radical of the radicals doesn't go strat to fucking hamas to build more bombs!

Since those families are impoverished, I would be rather surprised that they're so eager to give away this money.

[Col. Crackpot]

*sigh* the only thing i am trying to say is that it is naieve to think that this $20,000 dollar payment is being used for ligitimate purposes. How does this money get to these familes? Saddam sure as hell didn't just use western union. To pay for the Hamas and Al-Asqa suicide bombers is it not logical to conclude that the money gets channeled through Al Asqa and Hamas? And after that do you think the families would say that they never got the money if it never made it to them? Of course not, because Hamas and Al-Asqa would just kill them if they did.

[Vympel]

*sigh* the only thing i am trying to say is that it is naieve to think that this $20,000 dollar payment is being used for ligitimate purposes. How does this money get to these familes?

If you ever read articles written about it, they either go straight to the families doors and given them a cheque, or they call them to a meeting at the town hall and call out names.

Saddam sure as hell didn't just use western union.

No, they used cheques.

To pay for the Hamas and Al-Asqa suicide bombers is it not logical to conclude that the money gets channeled through Al Asqa and Hamas?

Obviously not, considering the fact of the matter is that they're handed a cheque.

And after that do you think the families would say that they never got the money if it never made it to them? Of course not, because Hamas and Al-Asqa would just kill them if they did.

Western reporters have personally seen and reported the payment procedures with their own eyes. Depending on whether you were personally wounded, had a family member killed, etc, you get paid.