Chinese F-16's?

Tom_Aurum · Post by **Tom_Aurum** » 2003-05-29 04:59pm

Just figured I'd ask since I heard sort of a rumour the other day that china had somehow gotten the plans for the F-16 and has been observed making them. Is this true, or is it just a myth?

RadiO · Post by **RadiO** » 2003-05-29 05:11pm

It's been rumoured that China received a single F-16 from Pakistan. The rumour alledges that the Chinese wanted the aircraft so they could study its fly-by-wire control system to inform thier own research in this area, rather than spawn an outright copy.
Of course, for this aim China wouldn't necessarily need a flyable aircraft; and since Pakistan has a very limited fleet of F-16s, this was probably a transfer of a written-off airframe with its controls and other systems intact or in a repairable state, or just the systems themselves. If, of course, any of this is true; I never really saw a reliable cite for it, but it does make some sense.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-05-29 06:43pm

I've never seen a single thing to suggest that happened. China is roared to have gotten everything from dud Tomahawks in Afghanistan to an Iranian Phantom to a dud ALARM pulled up of a Serbian swamp to a pair of Mk48 torpedoes that where supposedly stolen from the San Diego Naval yard during the 1993 super bowl.

RadiO · Post by **RadiO** » 2003-05-29 07:13pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:I've never seen a single thing to suggest that happened. China is roared to have gotten everything from dud Tomahawks in Afghanistan to an Iranian Phantom to a dud ALARM pulled up of a Serbian swamp to a pair of Mk48 torpedoes that where supposedly stolen from the San Diego Naval yard during the 1993 super bowl.

Yeah. IIRC, one version of the F-16 rumour connected the supply of the aircraft to discounts on Pakistan's purchases of Chinese military equipment.
It is completely unsustantiated; but it doesn't seem too outlandish. Every nation has at one time "accquired" examples of the opposition's aircraft for study; Pakistan has some connections with China, was at the time increasingly purchasing equipment from that nation (including the long-running FC-1/Super 7 saga) and was flying one of the US and Taiwan's main combat aircraft. I'd be surprised if Chinese technicians and aircrew hadn't at least examined Pakistan's Vipers in-situ. But, granted, that's still a long way from China actually possessing a ex-Pakistani F-16.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-05-30 02:09am

Pakistan's F-16s suck. No match for even an export-version MiG-29. Even if China did have a sample- not to worry.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-05-30 08:25am

Vympel wrote:Pakistan's F-16s suck. No match for even an export-version MiG-29. Even if China did have a sample- not to worry.

The fly by wire system was still first class. Though today it is very outdated. The radar and bombing computers are equal to somthing like block 15.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-05-30 09:08am

Sea Skimmer wrote: The fly by wire system was still first class. Though today it is very outdated. The radar and bombing computers are equal to somthing like block 15.

True, they're a pretty standard F-16A model, a maneuverable little WVR-only fighter, but without any BVR capability- leaves em at a disadvantage against the MiG-29 and hell even the MiG-23 (though it's BVR capability wasn't that impressive, practically speaking).

Tom_Aurum · Post by **Tom_Aurum** » 2003-05-30 04:57pm

Thanks, you guys are useful for once. Anyways, me and a freind of mine were coming up with scenarios for ways that China could be a non-nuclear threat. Sort of seeing how paranoid is really paranoid, only nation besides north korea that the U.S. realistically needed to worry about before the whole Iraqi invasion farce. Anyways, he was saying that (hypothetically, off the wall like) if china had a method for manufacturing them in large amounts, that their air force could be a match for ours.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-05-30 05:27pm

China is a considerable threat now. However in terms of actually defeating US combat power, we've got a couple decades to wait.

The Albino Raven · Post by **The Albino Raven** » 2003-05-30 07:30pm

China is a considerable threat now. However in terms of actually defeating US combat power, we've got a couple decades to wait.

Yeah, Economically, they will surpass us within a decade or so, but they are still trying to close the technology gap between our armies, and that will take much longer

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-05-31 04:05am

Fremen_Muhadib wrote: Yeah, Economically, they will surpass us within a decade or so,

No, they won't.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-05-31 06:25am

Fremen_Muhadib wrote: Yeah, Economically, they will surpass us within a decade or so, but they are still trying to close the technology gap between our armies, and that will take much longer

Most of China's military is hopelessly, irrevocably obsolete. At the force levels they're at, any competent military reformer would simply cut/scrap their masses of obsolete, uncessessary shit to free up resources for modernization of a smaller force. Same thing I would've done had I been Yeltsin (god forbid- fat, ineffectual piss-pot that he was) the moment I was in.

Unfortunately, there are probably entrenched 'big conscript military' interests in the ranks of the PLA, just as there are in the Russian Army. They need to be purged, both of them.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-05-31 01:11pm

The Chinese have made some major cuts to the force structure of there army, the air force still wants its F-6's, but they've still got something like 50 active divisions. Its quite hopeless with the current leadership. Hell the PLAN was still building Ming's until a few years ago.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-05-31 09:36pm

This ignores the fact that in the next decades, most of the Chinese budget will be going to megaprojects to deal with their water shortages and with other projects to cope with shortages in food production. China's military has reasons to be important, but really cannot be all that to important--unless they decide to get their water from Siberia. Seriously, the continuing shortages are only going to grow more acute, and the three massive water-transport canals from the Yangtze to the Yellow can only be the beginning of coping with the problem, and doesn't deal with the problem repairing farmland already lost.

China can either come out of the next half-century well-placed to rise to considerable strength, or fail miserably. Either way, that male-slanted demographic is hardly going to help them stability-wise. But they're not going to be overtaking the USA economically any time, and they certainly shouldn't be frittering needed money away on military projects. Conscript armies, at least, do make for very good labour battalions.

Ypoknons · Post by **Ypoknons** » 2003-06-01 04:08am

As a Chinese, albiet a Hong Kong Chinese, I have to agree with the Duchess. Fruthermore, I don't think the Chinese have the capability to duplicate the system of the F-16; if I remember from the SU-27 reports I read a few years back, they don't even make those locally. Plus, having F-16's don't make any air force the equal of the US. They won't the AWACs capability or even the training to take advantage of it.

Plus, talk of war between the US and China scares me. Western educated, it's a bit like when Shep says he can't fight other Marylanders. Still, there's no need to be scared of China the way some Americans are for a long time. Try going back to the mainland [China] and then going to the US; it's incredible backward and many people are still living at the subsidence level outside the cities. Other here, at least, war with the US is current unthinkable.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-06-01 04:23am

Ypoknons wrote:As a Chinese, albiet a Hong Kong Chinese, I have to agree with the Duchess. Fruthermore, I don't think the Chinese have the capability to duplicate the system of the F-16; if I remember from the SU-27 reports I read a few years back, they don't even make those locally.

The first batch of Su-27SK and Su-27UBK aircraft for China were produced in Russia. China's first batch of the same were horrendously built- they had to be returned to Russia for a complete rebuild.

However, that's not the case now- China has a license production contract for some 200 Su-27s for the PLAAF, which it is building to a satisfactory standard.

The more advanced Su-30MKK series that is steadily entereing service, however, is still being built by Russia, if I remember correctly.

China doesn't have the domestic capabilities to do anywhere near what the Russians have been doing since the late 1970s. On the J-10, their new 'F-16' type aircraft, the avionics are Russian, the radar is Russian, and the engines are Russian. The only thing Chinese is the airframe- a delta canard design.

Plus, having F-16's don't make any air force the equal of the US. They won't the AWACs capability or even the training to take advantage of it.

Yup.

Plus, talk of war between the US and China scares me. Western educated, it's a bit like when Shep says he can't fight other Marylanders. Still, there's no need to be scared of China the way some Americans are for a long time. Try going back to the mainland [China] and then going to the US; it's incredible backward and many people are still living at the subsidence level outside the cities. Other here, at least, war with the US is current unthinkable.

It is just paranoia- I don't think China would ever resort to force to reunify with Taiwan either.

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-06-01 03:30pm

As near as I can tell, although I am by no means a scholar on Chinese subjects, it has always seemed to me that China is more interested in its own region than in any sort of global projection of power. While true they have exported Maoist ideology to a number of groups in the past, I think they have lost ground in a number of areas such as Africa where Islamic fanaticism has taken firmer hold.

I think China could, if they really decided to get their act together, present a serious, qualitative threat to the US but it would require such a radical shift in thought and implementation of ideas that it is safe to say that it won't happen in our lifetimes.

And even if they did become a threat, I'd say that historically Siberia (Russia), Japan, Vietnam and the Koreas have more to fear (Taiwan being in a sort of seperate category). But the costs of maintaining a massive consript army, combined with immediate food and water problems, will preclude any major military ventures for the time being.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-01 04:59pm

Vympel wrote:
The more advanced Su-30MKK series that is steadily entereing service, however, is still being built by Russia, if I remember correctly.

The initial batch is Russian built, but as I recall the Chinese wanted to build around half the order locally.

China doesn't have the domestic capabilities to do anywhere near what the Russians have been doing since the late 1970s. On the J-10, their new 'F-16' type aircraft, the avionics are Russian, the radar is Russian, and the engines are Russian. The only thing Chinese is the airframe- a delta canard design.

Which in turn is only a modification of an Israeli/US design.

It is just paranoia- I don't think China would ever resort to force to reunify with Taiwan either.

They'd never resort to an invasion, even if they had the capability. But they'd certainly be willing to use the threat of force to get concessions out of the country and keep it from declaring independence. You never know when a sub might go missing...

That all makes a strong ROC military very important.