Going to vote now...

Post by **Zaia** » 2003-04-04 11:11am

MKSheppard wrote:
Zaia wrote:RESPOND TO MY QUESTION, PLEASE.
Who? Me, or Falk, or whatever?

My question was for Falk. Feel free to answer too, Shep, if you support his views. Since I'm a music teacher, I want to know if I fit into the generalizations.

Next of Kin · Post by **Next of Kin** » 2003-04-04 11:36am

Darth Wong wrote:
PS. The education system would be a lot better if there were some feedback mechanism. I have run into great teachers and absolutely shitty teachers, and there is one problem here: they both get paid the same.

Mike, In Ontario I think there is a bit of waste at the administration level when the provinvial government has to fund both the Public and the Catholic system. [Not that it matters but I went through the seperate system] We have two identical sets of admin when it could be streamed into one. However, I don't believe that any Ontario gov't will touch this issue with a ten foot pole

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-04-04 03:24pm

Next of Kin wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: PS. The education system would be a lot better if there were some feedback mechanism. I have run into great teachers and absolutely shitty teachers, and there is one problem here: they both get paid the same.
Mike, In Ontario I think there is a bit of waste at the administration level when the provinvial government has to fund both the Public and the Catholic system. [Not that it matters but I went through the seperate system] We have two identical sets of admin when it could be streamed into one. However, I don't believe that any Ontario gov't will touch this issue with a ten foot pole

Agreed. That piece-of-shit altar-boy buggering secondary school board should be dissolved immediately and the resulting tax savings used to improve school facilities and hire more teachers.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-04-04 03:35pm

Next of Kin wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
PS. The education system would be a lot better if there were some feedback mechanism. I have run into great teachers and absolutely shitty teachers, and there is one problem here: they both get paid the same.
Mike, In Ontario I think there is a bit of waste at the administration level when the provinvial government has to fund both the Public and the Catholic system. [Not that it matters but I went through the seperate system] We have two identical sets of admin when it could be streamed into one. However, I don't believe that any Ontario gov't will touch this issue with a ten foot pole

Ontario funds religious schools? I don't know anything about Ontario's constitutional law, but surely you have something mandating the separation of church and state?

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2003-04-04 03:42pm

Durran Korr wrote: Ontario funds religious schools? I don't know anything about Ontario's constitutional law, but surely you have something mandating the separation of church and state?

I don't think so.

In Quebec there were two school boards: protestant and catholic, with the catholic ones being mainly french (I was in a protestant school). Each year you got a manditory MRE (Moral and Religious Education) class as part of the circulem. My final year of high school, they finally instituted a M.E. class (Moral Education) without the religious aspect. This was 1992. I think they've since changed to English/French school boards. I'm not sure of the status of the MRE classes.

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2003-04-04 03:43pm

Zoink wrote: circulem.

er, that's "curriculum"

Next of Kin · Post by **Next of Kin** » 2003-04-04 04:38pm

Durran Korr wrote: Ontario funds religious schools?

Just the Catholic school board. I guess with the new system of tax credits for parent's who send their child to a private school (could be religious based) the government is somewhat subsidising religious schools. However, the Catholic school boards receive direct funding from the government. Too many boards chasing too few $$. I don't know anything about the situation of catholic schools in the States but in Hamilton, ON. All the catholic high schools are new, shopping mall like buildings with grand facades, atriums, and such.

Next of Kin · Post by **Next of Kin** » 2003-04-04 04:57pm

Durran Korr wrote: Ontario funds religious schools? I don't know anything about Ontario's constitutional law, but surely you have something mandating the separation of church and state?

It's in section 93 of the BNA act (the constitution).

Post by **Zaia** » 2003-04-04 10:47pm

*twiddles thumbs and waits*

Anytime, boys....

Post by **haas mark** » 2003-04-04 10:48pm

'Tis incredibly nice to be ignored...

David · Post by **David** » 2003-04-05 12:07am

Since the last five pages appear to be nothing but flames and rants I'm not going to read them, instead I'll reply to Falk's original post.

In my mind it all comes down to the fact that there is never enough of anything to go around, most especially money. Therefore the question of which programs get cut or expanded boils down to which is more necessary. Appreciation classes that have to do with Art, Drama, and Music have less real world value than than academic courses or shop classes. Taking an advanced academic course as opposed to a appreciation course allows a student entering college to make better grades than on who has not ( assuming a equal level of study time and intelligence) and start on a higher course level. Taking shop classes or vocational courses in high school allow non college bound students to immediately enter into a decent paying job without getting stuck in the misery of a non-benefit minimum wage job. And it is my experience that students that have not had appreciation courses in high school can do just as well as students who have had these courses when they take similar courses in college.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-04-05 12:10am

Durran Korr wrote:Ontario funds religious schools? I don't know anything about Ontario's constitutional law, but surely you have something mandating the separation of church and state?

Yes we do. We also have this fucking piece of shit called the "notwithstanding" clause, which says that it's OK to violate any and all constitutional rights at the provincial level (as opposed to the federal level) if it is deemed necessary to maintain any individual province's cultural uniqueness.

Naturally, this clause was inserted at the behest of Quebec, which insists on retaining the right to ignore human-rights laws in its treatment of natives and language minorities. As always, everything that I hate about my own country is because of that fucking whiner-shithole Quebec.

Queeb Salaron · Post by **Queeb Salaron** » 2003-04-05 10:00pm

David wrote:Appreciation classes that have to do with Art, Drama, and Music have less real world value than than academic courses or shop classes.

Who are you to determine the value of an academic department? Who is anyone to determine a department's value, for that matter? It is apparent that the people who argue against the academic value of the Arts have never taken a music theory course, art history class, or theatre workshop. Music theory is more akin to math than anything. Because art is a reflection of culture, art history provides a more in-depth look at previous societies than any history text. And the plays discussed in theater workshops are stories that relate to the common state of mind at any given point in history. There is as much academic value in these classes as there is any math, science, history, or English class.

Taking an advanced academic course as opposed to a appreciation course allows a student entering college to make better grades than on who has not ( assuming a equal level of study time and intelligence) and start on a higher course level.

Well, yes. But now you're advocating for monochromaticism in scholastics. More precisely, you're arguing that people should do one thing and do it very well rather than opening themselves up to a broad variety of subjects (academic and "non-academic" alike). Were the latter a bit more widely accepted, it would be much easier to solve problems in the context of a variety of other factors rather than from one highly-developed point of view. I'd argue that open-mindedness is the brainchild of a diverse education.

And it is my experience that students that have not had appreciation courses in high school can do just as well as students who have had these courses when they take similar courses in college.

Probably not true. You'd have to know the basics of music theory, for example, to be able to take a college-level music appreciation course. Same goes for Art and Theater.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-06-05 07:01am

Queeb Salaron wrote:I try to give Neo-nazis a chance to speak their minds. They have that right as well as the next man.

*Chokes on coffee and it escapes through nose*

This must be recitfied at once, to the law-mobile! Come Litigious-boy!

"Jumping jury duty, District-Attourney Man!"

*speeds off to the local court-house*

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-06-05 07:09am

Whoa, shite, didn't notice this thread was so bloody ancient.
Sorry for the necromancy.

Saurencaerthai · Post by **Saurencaerthai** » 2003-06-05 07:31pm

I am proud to say that when I was at that school I never took one single Music, Drama, or Home Ec class, and I wouldn't want my kids to take any either

Blood warming....blood warming.........BLOOD BOILING.....

NapoleonGH · Post by **NapoleonGH** » 2003-06-05 10:22pm

its ok, the guy is a stupid shit, do we need to know anything else.

Specialization is for insects, men should be able to be jacks of all trades while a master of one (or two or three depending on the person). We should know a little bit about everything while learning alot about whatever field we will be in.

Homeec teaches probably the most real world applicable skills out of all classes/departments in high schools.

Art and music and the like are what define a culture, and demonstrate the prevailing thoughts and histories of the culture as well. ohh did I mention that creativeity is something that is essential for all advancement of any kind in any area, if we dont encourage people to be creative, we are doomed to stagnation.

I think that all math teachers are assholes and all history teachers are facists dickwads, maybe we shouldnt teach kids math or history, becuase you know i never used European history in the "real world" and I never needed calculus either in my job in the meat packing industry, so of course that means that they are totally unnecessary for me, the typical worker drone to know, so instead lets teach me only the things that worker drones need to know so that i can never be anything BUT a worker drone and will always be limited to being at the lower end of society and the lower end of any buisiness structure. Good reasoning

finally, i find the blatant "im not rich so im going to hate anyone who actually is an economic success rather than a burden on the economy" attitude by falk to be repulsive to the Nth degree, yes there will always be haves and have nots, and too damn bad you are a have not deal with it. Music education in your school allows you and others like you to actually have a shot to be a musician, get rid of it from school and only those who can afford to pay for private tutors will be able to produce music from now on in your area. So by attempting to oppose something that you dont like because it is "for the rich" in actuality you are limiting the options of the poor while creating less competition for the rich. Good job.

(yes i realize most of this thread is old, but the kind of rediculously stupid reasoning expressed in the first post of this thread has me in such a rage that I must post this)