Robert E. Lee: Traitor or Hero?

[Perinquus]

What really pisses me off is that most of same people who say Lee wasnt a traitor to the US and that secession was a legal thing, have no problem with calling anyone who disagrees with the US government today a traitor.

Nice blanket generalization there bub. Now let's see you back it up. Why don't you find some previous quote on this board by a person now defending Lee, suggesting that anyone who disagrees with the U.S. government today is a traitor. I know you won't find any such quote of mine, and I very much doubt you'll find one from anyone else either.

[Stuart Mackey]

He was an American citizen who took up arms against the United States. He killed thousand of US troops and led assualt into the United States. That fits to the t.

Only by a very simplistic reading of the matter. Legally, he was not a citizen of the United States when Virginia ceased to be part of the Federal union and he subsequently resigned his commission and followed his state. His actions and those of the Confederate officer corps were of a whole different character, legally and morally, than those of John Brown —who did promulgate a lawless insurrection against the constituted authorities of the state of Virginia and the United States while still a citizen in 1856.

Again, read the history. Please.

"With all my devotion to the Union and the feeling of loyalty and duty of an American citizen, I have not been able to make up my mind to raise my hand against my relatives, my children, my home. I have therefore resigned my commission in the Army, and save in defense of my native State, with the sincere hope that my poor services may never be needed, I hope I may never be called on to draw my sword....." Lee in a letter to his sister, April 20, 1861

[Robert Treder]

... Legally, he was not a citizen of the United States when Virginia ceased to be part of the Federal union and he subsequently resigned his commission and followed his state...

Did the Union actually declare the rebels to have given up their citizenship? That sounds self-defeating to me.

The way I see Lee is that he is both a traitor and a great leader. Whether or not you like the guy, one must admit that he was a traitor, technically. This does not, of course, make him any less a brilliant general and leader of men.
I don't know much about his personal life, so I can't judge whether or not he was a good person in that respect. Even if he was a really great guy, that doesn't make him not a traitor.
I have a lot of respect for his abilities and accomplishments, but I can't say I approve of his decision. Holding yourself loyal to your individual state is beyond silly in my opinion; it only serves to promote disunity.

[phongn]

... Legally, he was not a citizen of the United States when Virginia ceased to be part of the Federal union and he subsequently resigned his commission and followed his state...

Did the Union actually declare the rebels to have given up their citizenship? That sounds self-defeating to me.

It was a gray area. They weren't all considered traitors but weren't exactly considered citizens of the CSA either.

[Pablo Sanchez]

You have to weigh the outcome of Lee's decision to turn coat.

If he had stayed in the Union, I'm sure most people would agree that the civil war would not have gone on very long. With such a brilliant general officer, the war shouldn't have lasted more than a year or so, and wouldn't have been as harrowing for either side.

This would have the effect of preventing untold casualties and forestalling the economic destruction of the south. It would also have allowed slavery to continue, because that didn't become a real war aim until after Antietam. Also, if the South remained productive instead of the undeveloped region it became (and still is, to an extent) it might still have been able to maintain the "States' Rights" fight in a form outside the imaginations of reactionaries, or at the least to continue the USA's dualism into the 20th century.

P.S.:

Sir Sirius, I would point out to you the fact that the American Civil War is the defining moment in the USA's development as the nation it is today, as much so as the American Revolution. That's why it is still an important topic.

[Perinquus]

I have a lot of respect for his abilities and accomplishments, but I can't say I approve of his decision. Holding yourself loyal to your individual state is beyond silly in my opinion; it only serves to promote disunity.

To many southerners of the time, unity with northern states, which had different economies and different interests seemed overrated.

People throughout history have entertained all sorts of ideas, many of which seem incredibly absurd to us nowadays. Once again, let me remind you that what seems natural and obvious to us today was not necessarily so at all to people in past times. I've already explained some of the reasons that many men gave their first loyalty to their state. Whether we approve of those reasons or not, they seemed real and compelling to those men. Different attitudes prevailed in the mid nineteenth century, different ideas were common and respectable back then.

[irishmick79]

... Legally, he was not a tizen of the United States when Virginia ceased to be part of the Federal union and he subsequently resigned his commission and followed his state...

Did the Union actually declare the rebels to have given up their citizenship? That sounds self-defeating to me.

No, the Union never actually came out and stated that as a part of the war effort. Lincoln only stated that the southern states were in rebellion, and he was very careful not to go much farther. That way, he could still claim the citizens of the south as citizens of the United States, making it more difficult for foreign countries to recognize the South as an independant nation. Consequently, it'd difficult to assume that the administration would have supported efforts to completely strip the southerners of the rights as US citizens.

Union General Benjamin Butler actually stirred some controversy on the issue when he flat out stated that contraband slaves would not be returned to their masters in his district, because the Fugitive Slave Act no longer applied to Virginia. There was quite a debate within the administration as to wheather or not Butler was correct in his application of US law, and in the end the Administration decided to back Butler's position.

So while the Union did not completely remove citizenship from the southern populace, it certainly placed limits on it while the war lasted.

[Iceberg]

U.S. Army Commissioned Officer Oath

I, (state your name), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of Second Lieutenant, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of The United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter. So help me God.

Emphasis mine

Thank you. The CSA made themselves a domestic enemy of the Constitution by writing their own which explicitly changed the U.S. Constitution on several matters, turning the federal union into a loose and disunified confederacy.

Therefore, Lee violated his oath to defend the Constitution from "all enemies, foreign and domestic."

[Perinquus]

Thank you. The CSA made themselves a domestic enemy of the Constitution by writing their own which explicitly changed the U.S. Constitution on several matters, turning the federal union into a loose and disunified confederacy.

Therefore, Lee violated his oath to defend the Constitution from "all enemies, foreign and domestic."

That's stretching the point quite a bit. They did not seek to supplant the U.S. Constitution with another; they did not seek the overthrow of the United States government; they did not seek to terminate the Union, or to change it into a looser confederation of states. They merely wished to take themselves out of the Union. Just because someone does not wish to be a part of your organization does not automatically make them your enemy. And indeed, the Confederates always maintained that they were quite willing to coexist peacefully as neighbors, but the North invaded and tried to drag them back into a Union of which they no longer wished to be a part.

Evidently this would have been part of Davis defense had the U.S. government gone ahead with a treason trial, and that, plus other arguments he would have offered in his defense were compelling enough that the U.S. government feared it could very likely lose the case, and thus give an air of legitimacy to the Southern cause.

In other words: it's just not as simple as you make it out.

[NapoleonGH]

What really pisses me off is that most of same people who say Lee wasnt a traitor to the US and that secession was a legal thing, have no problem with calling anyone who disagrees with the US government today a traitor.

Nice blanket generalization there bub. Now let's see you back it up. Why don't you find some previous quote on this board by a person now defending Lee, suggesting that anyone who disagrees with the U.S. government today is a traitor. I know you won't find any such quote of mine, and I very much doubt you'll find one from anyone else either.

Am i necessarily talking about this board?

[Stuart Mackey]

Therefore, Lee violated his oath to defend the Constitution from "all enemies, foreign and domestic."

False, Lee resigned from the US army and could no longer be held to this oath.

"With all my devotion to the Union and the feeling of loyalty and duty of an American citizen, I have not been able to make up my mind to raise my hand against my relatives, my children, my home. I have therefore resigned my commission in the Army, and save in defense of my native State, with the sincere hope that my poor services may never be needed, I hope I may never be called on to draw my sword....." Lee in a letter to his sister, April 20, 1861