New racist Israeli law passed (mixed couples)

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-08-01 08:02pm

Can you people not understand

RED HERRING?!

It doesn't matter if the fucking Arab countries around Isreal are the Devil's Soldiers from Hell, or God's Helping Angels. This is a racist law.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-08-01 08:24pm

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:This is a racist law.

How so?

100% of all suicide bombings are carried out by Arabs.

Until that statistic changes, I'll stand by this law as an efficient means
of preventing suicide bombings, etc

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-08-01 08:26pm

Whether or not the law is an efficient means of preventing suicide bombings does not alter the fact that it is inherently racist, Shep. I tend to favor Israel in the Middle East, but it does have its flaws.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-08-01 08:34pm

Durran Korr wrote:Whether or not the law is an efficient means of preventing suicide bombings does not alter the fact that it is inherently racist, Shep.

Sounds suspicously like liberal whining about Racial profiling, despite the
fact that the majority of crimes in urban areas are committed by a certain
racial minority....

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-08-01 08:37pm

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Can you people not understand

RED HERRING?!

It doesn't matter if the fucking Arab countries around Isreal are the Devil's Soldiers from Hell, or God's Helping Angels. This is a racist law.

Okay, and it is not equally racist to say "we should bomb Israel"? Am I not allowed to point out my own indignity at what I perceive to be an equally racist and one-sided hammering of Israel while totally ignoring the very obvious barbarities of those that are attacking Israel?

A nation and its entire people are being attacked for something that is called 'deplorable' for racist reasons-- while brushing under the carpet things that should be equally deplorable to all you peace-and-justice loving people? And then you squash any attempt to address another side of the debate? Between this thread and the one comparing the security fence to the Warsaw Ghetto Wall of the Nazis, I find it odd that the so-called "moratorium" on IvP threads seems to allow for any condemnation of one side while pulling the wool over your eyes for the other.

Is 'deplorable racism' only a crime of one side here?

Or am I disturbing the "hate Israel" circle-wank that goes perpetuated on and on and on and on and on and on.... There are two sides to this issue and while I have admitted many times that the Arabs have a good point and deserve to be listened to, I find myself having to swallow loads of dogmatist racist shit about Israel and the Israeli people-- and I bet most if not all of you have never been there or made any effort to truly get involved and understand what goes on there.

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-08-01 09:32pm

And again, I must say - its ironic how the wheel turns.

I wonder if in about 50 years the Palestinian people will be holding the "holocaust" over the worlds heads following the crimes perpetrated by the Israeli's.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-08-01 09:58pm

weemadando wrote:And again, I must say - its ironic how the wheel turns.

I wonder if in about 50 years the Palestinian people will be holding the "holocaust" over the worlds heads following the crimes perpetrated by the Israeli's.

It might be Holocaust if the "victims" weren't a bunch of racist, religion-addled, terrorist who insist on regularly blowing themselves to bit on crowded busses. It's funny how easy it is for people to ignore that part of it.

Yes, Israel needs to clean up it's act in some ways. But they're not deliberately slaughtering innocents and that puts them light years ahead the Palestinians.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-08-01 10:10pm

Coyote wrote: Okay, and it is not equally racist to say "we should bomb Israel"?

No more so than it is to say "we should bomb Japan". Israel is a sovereign nation in its own right, responsible for its actions. The primary religion or race of its population is immaterial.

Am I not allowed to point out my own indignity at what I perceive to be an equally racist and one-sided hammering of Israel while totally ignoring the very obvious barbarities of those that are attacking Israel?

By all means, explain how criticism of legislation is "racist"

A nation and its entire people are being attacked for something that is called 'deplorable' for racist reasons-- while brushing under the carpet things that should be equally deplorable to all you peace-and-justice loving people?

Stop trying to change the subject. We are talking about one particular Israeli law.

And then you squash any attempt to address another side of the debate?

This isn't a debate about the good and bad points of the Isreali and Palestinian sides. This is a debate about one particular law.

Between this thread and the one comparing the security fence to the Warsaw Ghetto Wall of the Nazis, I find it odd that the so-called "moratorium" on IvP threads seems to allow for any condemnation of one side while pulling the wool over your eyes for the other.

You and I are in agreement on this point.

Is 'deplorable racism' only a crime of one side here?

Maybe you should get it through your thick fucking head that we aren't talking about Palestinians at all in this thread. We are talking about a fucking Israeli law.

Or am I disturbing the "hate Israel" circle-wank that goes perpetuated on and on and on and on and on and on.... There are two sides to this issue and while I have admitted many times that the Arabs have a good point and deserve to be listened to, I find myself having to swallow loads of dogmatist racist shit about Israel and the Israeli people--

So are you saying that this law is justified?

and I bet most if not all of you have never been there or made any effort to truly get involved and understand what goes on there.

I don't need to go to Israel and see both sides of the entire IvP issue in order to determine that this law is of questionable equity with respect to different demographics of the Israeli population.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-08-01 11:36pm

weemadando wrote:And again, I must say - its ironic how the wheel turns.

I wonder if in about 50 years the Palestinian people will be holding the "holocaust" over the worlds heads following the crimes perpetrated by the Israeli's.

Good lord, get off of it. I cannot that you actually typed that. You know goddamned fucking well that what has been done to the Palestinians does not even come close to approaching what happened to the Jews in Nazi Germany nor is there any possibility of it escalating to be that serious. Israel may have its flaws, but that does not justify you trying to draw some sort of moral equivalence between Nazi Germany and Israel.

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-08-01 11:45pm

Durran Korr wrote:
Good lord, get off of it. I cannot that you actually typed that. You know goddamned fucking well that what has been done to the Palestinians does not even come close to approaching what happened to the Jews in Nazi Germany nor is there any possibility of it escalating to be that serious. Israel may have its flaws, but that does not justify you trying to draw some sort of moral equivalence between Nazi Germany and Israel.

My point is that I find it somehow strange that while on the one hand they can rant about how ever the holocaust was all they want, yet on the other, they are doing stuff straight out of the National Socialist textbook for segregation and seperation of inferior races.

Yes, there is a "reason" for doing all this, but be damned if I think its a good one, the only reason the Palestinians are using suicide bombings is because Israel and much of the west over the past 50 years has removed every other option from them.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-08-02 12:12am

My point is that I find it somehow strange that while on the one hand they can rant about how ever the holocaust was all they want, yet on the other, they are doing stuff straight out of the National Socialist textbook for segregation and seperation of inferior race.

Strange, I don't seem to recall the Israelis clamping down on any ethnic group other than the Arabs. Perhaps there is an element of racism here; perhaps also the Israelis are simply doing what they believe necessary to control a minority whose hostility is well-established and whose leaders (the real problem here; what the Arab world needs is leadership not consisting of desert sheiks whose thinking is still in the Dark Ages) have scarcely toned down their hateful rhetoric since the 1940s when they were ready to throw the Jews into the sea. Granted, it would be nice if the Israelis could refrain from passing such inherently discriminatory law, but it would also be nice if the Palestinian leadership took a little more initiative to end suicide bombing.

Yes, there is a "reason" for doing all this, but be damned if I think its a good one, the only reason the Palestinians are using suicide bombings is because Israel and much of the west over the past 50 years has removed every other option from them.

You want options? OK, how about the Palestinian refugees are resettled peacefully in an Arab country after the 1948 war, leaving both groups in peace and the issue mostly resolved? Oh, that's right, the Arab world steadfastly refused to that; couldn't just give up the most potent weapon in their political arsenal, the suffering and plight of the Palestinians, after all.

But I digress. Desperation is no excuse for suicide bombing; if you'll recall, a man named Gandhi managed to secure justice for his people without killing a single person. If the Palestinians really want Israel to treat them as something other than the hostile minority that for all intents and purposes they appear to be, then they need to start taking a more active stance against suicide bombing.

Saurencaerthai · Post by **Saurencaerthai** » 2003-08-02 12:38am

I'm not even going to bother trying to jump into this debate here. Too many shades of gray.

Instead, I will just give my opinion of the law: I am pro Israel. I do not support this law. Yes, I there are probably ways marrying an Israeli could strategically be exploited, but this still is ridiculous, in my opinion.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-08-02 01:49am

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Can you people not understand

It doesn't matter if the fucking Arab countries around Isreal are the Devil's Soldiers from Hell, or God's Helping Angels. This is a racist law.

No it isn't.

The law is: Not written to be racist (conceded by Edi).

The law is: Designed to prevent civilian casualties in a military conflict (stated aim of creators).

Neither of these things is racist, capiche? You people are bitching that the result of the law might be racist anyway. Well, hell, if it is, the Israelis can just not extend it when it EXPIRES IN A YEAR. Condemn them if they extend it anyway.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-08-02 03:30am

Does that mean that Ms. Portman's Parent's are not married legally anymore?

Since her dad's an american and an Athiest of Jewish ancestry, and her mom's an Isreali....

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-08-02 03:35am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: No it isn't.

The law is: Not written to be racist (conceded by Edi).

The law is: Designed to prevent civilian casualties in a military conflict (stated aim of creators).

Neither of these things is racist, capiche? You people are bitching that the result of the law might be racist anyway. Well, hell, if it is, the Israelis can just not extend it when it EXPIRES IN A YEAR. Condemn them if they extend it anyway.

Wait wait wait... it's a law leveled at a specific ethnic group, in this case Arabs. How is that not racist, since the main feature of it is based upon race?

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-08-02 03:57am

The Yosemite Bear wrote:Does that mean that Ms. Portman's Parent's are not married legally anymore?

Since her dad's an american and an Athiest of Jewish ancestry, and her mom's an Isreali....

No, because neither one is Arab.

Somehow, this is not racist.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-08-02 07:07am

Gil Hamilton wrote: Wait wait wait... it's a law leveled at a specific ethnic group, in this case Arabs. How is that not racist, since the main feature of it is based upon race?

The law applies to all Israelis regarding all marriages with people from Palestine (the occupied territories). The HRW website confirmed that. Its goal is to prevent the ingress of people from Palestine who carry out suicide bombings.

It's only arguably racist in that the vast majority of those marriages are between Palestinian and Israeli Arabs (though some Palestinians have married Jews before, it's not totally unheard of)--but I'm saying that you can't accuse them of having some nefarious purpose of racism without proof, and should instead wait for the year it will be in affect, see if it has a clearly racist result, and then wait and see if they extend it anyway. If they do, then they are obviously operating under racist motivations.

Follow that line of reasoning?

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-08-02 10:24pm

Howedar wrote:
Coyote wrote: A nation and its entire people are being attacked for something that is called 'deplorable' for racist reasons-- while brushing under the carpet things that should be equally deplorable to all you peace-and-justice loving people?
Stop trying to change the subject. We are talking about one particular Israeli law.

And there is a reason why the law came up in the first place. If there were no conflict between the Irsaelis and the Palestinians, and then this law was passed out of sheer choler, it would mean something entirely different. But this law-- and I have already said at least two or three times it is a bad idea-- comes about as a result of extremely racist attacks perpetrated by Arab extremists.

Arabs have attacked Jews because of race-- in militant action as well as in popular media. These Arab elements have not confined their criticisms of Israel to simple squabbles over land, they have repeated called for war to drive "pigs and monkeys" from their soil and that a certain class of people should be killed solely because they are Jews. My indignity sprouts from the fact that this Arabic racism is ignored and apparantly condoned while anything Israel does is fair game for attack.

Howedar wrote:
Coyote wrote:And then you squash any attempt to address another side of the debate?
This isn't a debate about the good and bad points of the Isreali and Palestinian sides. This is a debate about one particular law.

As I pointed out, that law did not come into existence in a vacuum. Part of the reason that law came to be passed is as a result of racist action by others, which goes ignored. By pointing out only the shortcomings of Israeli society paints a picture of Israel that I feel is undeserved and distorted. Why is there never any ire raised about the shortcomings of Palestinian extremists? One-sided condemnation is as false as one-sided praise.

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2003-08-04 06:04am

weemadando wrote:And again, I must say - its ironic how the wheel turns.

I wonder if in about 50 years the Palestinian people will be holding the "holocaust" over the worlds heads following the crimes perpetrated by the Israeli's.

Obviously you've never been to a death camp.