Clinton vs Bush (and vice versa)

[Durandal]

Actually the only pictures I've ever seen where clearly in a cemetery

At least they got buried with decent marked individual graves.

Thousands of Confederate soldiers bodies were dumped in ditches which were then covered over, or thrown down wells to get rid of them, while Union troops were buried in neat rows at battlefield cemeteries.

1 ...
2 ...
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WHO CARES?!

That is all.

[Howedar]

Already did. Repeatedly.
January 1993, Clinton is Inagurated.
February 26, 1993, the WTC is bombed by a group of Osama's butt buddies.
June 25, 1996, More of Osama's Butt Buddies blow up Khobar Towers
in Saudi Arabia.
August 7, 1998, More of Osama's butt buddies blow up two US embassies
in Africa.
Oct. 12, 2001, More of Osama's Butt buddies blow up the USS Cole.
Fuck's sake, the goddamned handwriting was on the fucking wall repeatedly
during Clinton's term, and all he did was worthless TLAM strikes.

I agree with you Shep, but as other have pointed out, Clinton took shit from the public even for these ineffectual strikes. He could not have entered into any large scale military action even if he'd wanted to, for the simple reason that he had no public support.

[Sea Skimmer]

I agree with you Shep, but as other have pointed out, Clinton took shit from the public even for these ineffectual strikes. He could not have entered into any large scale military action even if he'd wanted to, for the simple reason that he had no public support.

He did get congressional support to invade Iraq in 1998. Instead he bombed for four nights using almost exclusively in theater assets.

[MKSheppard]

Clinton took shit from the public even for these ineffectual strikes.

Because everyone saw them as being utterly ineffective and a waste
of ammo to boot. Now, if he had gone on TV and said that "special forces
assisted by the 82nd Airborne division have landed and have destroyed
a terrorist camp responsible for killing American citizens, and we have
recovered evidence from the camp and have taken several terrorists
prisoners, and they will be tried here for killing American citizens",
everyone would be cheering at the retribution exacted for killing americans.

[Nathan F]

Actually the only pictures I've ever seen where clearly in a cemetery

At least they got buried with decent marked individual graves.

Thousands of Confederate soldiers bodies were dumped in ditches which were then covered over, or thrown down wells to get rid of them, while Union troops were buried in neat rows at battlefield cemeteries.

1 ...
2 ...
3 ...

WHO CARES?!



That is all.

The ANCESTORS of these soldiers whose graves were never found, that's who. The public outcry to this attrocity was JACK SHIT, where these mass graves were, no one ever took the time to exhume the bodies and give them a decent burial. The Sons of Confed. Veterans and Daughters of the Confederacy scraped up enough money to put memorials on these graves, but the government didn't do crap. What makes these people less important than those buried by the Serbs?

I believe Shep was making a point by stating that this has happened many times in history without any kind of a public repercussion, and what makes this time any different than the others?

[MKSheppard]

He did get congressional support to invade Iraq in 1998.

Lets not forget how he almost started the Second Korean War in
1994, before he managed to get an out by creating the Nuke Reactors
for Food/Oil deal with NK, which was just revealed to be a sham only
recently.

[HemlockGrey]

He was a ruthless dictator and wouldn't leave power by anything else than a revolution, which even if happened could be bloody.

So was Saddam, incidentally.

[HemlockGrey]

he public outcry to this attrocity was JACK SHIT, where these mass graves were, no one ever took the time to exhume the bodies and give them a decent burial. The Sons of Confed. Veterans and Daughters of the Confederacy scraped up enough money to put memorials on these graves, but the government didn't do crap. What makes these people less important than those buried by the Serbs?

Because it's not a fucking atrocity! The Confederates were shot and killed on the field of battle. They voluntarily delievered themselves up to the Union muskets. It's not what happens after you're dead, it's how you die. If(IF) the Serbs were all massacred in the night and buried in pits, but the Confederate SOLDIERS were killed in a BATTLE and buried in pits, guess who I more sympathy for?

[Nathan F]

he public outcry to this attrocity was JACK SHIT, where these mass graves were, no one ever took the time to exhume the bodies and give them a decent burial. The Sons of Confed. Veterans and Daughters of the Confederacy scraped up enough money to put memorials on these graves, but the government didn't do crap. What makes these people less important than those buried by the Serbs?

Because it's not a fucking atrocity! The Confederates were shot and killed on the field of battle. They voluntarily delievered themselves up to the Union muskets. It's not what happens after you're dead, it's how you die. If(IF) the Serbs were all massacred in the night and buried in pits, but the Confederate SOLDIERS were killed in a BATTLE and buried in pits, guess who I more sympathy for?

You have no damn clue as to what we are talking about, do you?

We were talking about the Serbs killed in battle who were dumped into mass graves, not the Serbs killed by the 'ethnic cleansing'.

[HemlockGrey]

The neither the Serbs nor the Confederates should be bitching.

[Howedar]

He did get congressional support to invade Iraq in 1998. Instead he bombed for four nights using almost exclusively in theater assets.

I said public support. The public would have been mighty pissed off, as far as I see it.

[Sea Skimmer]

The neither the Serbs nor the Confederates should be bitching.

Did you know desecration of the dead is a major war crime? No I suppose not.

[Vympel]

They found approximately 2,000 bodies in all of Kosovo. With no statistics on how many were men, women, or children, whether they were Serbs or Albanians, or whether they were executed killed in battle. To refresh people's memory, the original claims by those fuckers was 100,000 killed. Kosovo was a low level civil war against guerillas, not a mass genocide campaign. When NATO started bombing, it exacerbated the fighting and increased the exodus from Kosovo- upon which the lable was immediately slapped 'ethnic cleansing'. The Serbs are perhaps the most demonized people in the last decade. Noone gives a fuck, for example, that 500,000 Serbs were expelled from their homes in Bosnia.

Expect Republicans to beat Clark over the head with this if he ever becomes a political threat.

[Edi]

The Serbs are perhaps the most demonized people in the last decade. Noone gives a fuck, for example, that 500,000 Serbs were expelled from their homes in Bosnia.

Yes, but at least they are alive. Some 100,000 or more Bosnian Muslims were killed, mainly at the hands of Serbs, with backing and support from Serbia proper, though Croats did their share of the killing. Serbian aggression started the whole Balkan mess of the 1990s, and they reaped what they sowed. If you approved of expelling and/or killing your neighbors just because they weren't your ethnicity and then end up on the losing side, don't expect to be treated very kindly, and this is exactly what happened to the Serbs. It was Bosnian Serb actions in Srebrenica that prompted them to be finally smacked down as they well and truly deserved, and they've got nobody to blame but themselves.

Kosovo and interference in Serbia proper was later, and is unrelated to the Bosnian conflict, and if the Republicans try to use the latter against Clark, they will get the snot beaten out of them with facts, Vympel.

Edi

[Vympel]

Yes, but at least they are alive. Some 100,000 or more Bosnian Muslims were killed, mainly at the hands of Serbs, with backing and support from Serbia proper, though Croats did their share of the killing. Serbian aggression started the whole Balkan mess of the 1990s, and they reaped what they sowed. If you approved of expelling and/or killing your neighbors just because they weren't your ethnicity and then end up on the losing side, don't expect to be treated very kindly, and this is exactly what happened to the Serbs. It was Bosnian Serb actions in Srebrenica that prompted them to be finally smacked down as they well and truly deserved, and they've got nobody to blame but themselves.

So all those 500,000 Serbs were responsible for the Muslims killed? That's guilt by association. The very same logic could be used to justify expelling the entire population of Palestine for terrorist attacks on Israel.

In regards to Srebrenica, I would point out that the true events of what happened there are actually quite murky. Noone knows how many Muslims really were missing, and the reports of Muslim factions fighting each other have largely been ignored. Like Kosovo, the contemporary claims and the facts later aren't nearly as clear- Srebrenica is used as a pancea to serve as NATO's justification, and absolving those Croat Muslim fucks of all their sins in the process (for example, putting 192 villages to the torch, etc). And just like in Kosovo- claims of deaths look WILDLY exaggerated. 8,000 Muslims missing, supposedly. War crimes tribunals have only exhumed 460 bodies. The prosecution has NEVER proven that 8,000 Muslims were killed. It just became a convenient number in the press- not unlike the nonsensical 100,000 number in Kosovo. Of course, the press has always been a bunch of hacks- I remember when they showed an Albanian mass grave: except that ... well ... they were individually marked ... and they were crosses.

Kosovo and interference in Serbia proper was later, and is unrelated to the Bosnian conflict, and if the Republicans try to use the latter against Clark, they will get the snot beaten out of them with facts, Vympel.

I was referring to Kosovo, in which Clark was involved, more than Bosnia. Kosovo was a cocksuck, and in this case the Democrats don't have many facts to save them. There was no genocide, and no ethnic cleansing.

[Edi]

So all those 500,000 Serbs were responsible for the Muslims killed? That's guilt by association. The very same logic could be used to justify expelling the entire population of Palestine for terrorist attacks on Israel.

You've got me there, not all of them were war criminals of course, but when you look at what happened between 1991 and 1995 in Bosnia, the outcome isn't much of a surprise. Among the Serb population support for the brutalities of the Karadzic regime was rather high, and they got into a real shitty situation because of that when all was said and done. It isn't right, I'll admit, but neither was it surprising. I've something of a similar blind spot toward Serbs (those that supported Milosevic and Karadzic, that is) as I have toward Russians, so you can chalk this one up for that. My bad. IIRC, quite a few of these dispossessed Serbs come from the Krajina region, don't they?

In regards to Srebrenica, I would point out that the true events of what happened there are actually quite murky. Noone knows how many Muslims really were missing, and the reports of Muslim factions fighting each other have largely been ignored. Like Kosovo, the contemporary claims and the facts later aren't nearly as clear- Srebrenica is used as a pancea to serve as NATO's justification, and absolving those Croat Muslim fucks of all their sins in the process (for example, putting 192 villages to the torch, etc).

I'm not saying the Muslims and Croats were any angels either. I've read the war memoirs of one Finnish guy who fough as a mercenary on the Croat side against the Muslims, and there was some quite sickening stuff in it. Some guys in their unit (international mercenaries, and most the lowest form of scum you will run into anywhere) actually considered blowing a dam that would have resulted in 15,000+ dead civilians in one stroke, but they were emphatically told not to do it.

And just like in Kosovo- claims of deaths look WILDLY exaggerated. 8,000 Muslims missing, supposedly. War crimes tribunals have only exhumed 460 bodies. The prosecution has NEVER proven that 8,000 Muslims were killed. It just became a convenient number in the press- not unlike the nonsensical 100,000 number in Kosovo.

I don't know all the particulars about Srebrenica, but based on earlier massacres elsewhere, it's a safe bet there is a lot more than 460. How many more, that's unknown. You'll notice that I wasn't talking about Srebrenica casualty figures, merely saying that the events there were the final straw that spurred international action against the Bosnian Serbs. The overall casualty figures for the war speak rather bleakly as to who suffered how much in that conflict.

Kosovo and interference in Serbia proper was later, and is unrelated to the Bosnian conflict, and if the Republicans try to use the latter against Clark, they will get the snot beaten out of them with facts, Vympel.

I was referring to Kosovo, in which Clark was involved, more than Bosnia. Kosovo was a cocksuck, and in this case the Democrats don't have many facts to save them. There was no genocide, and no ethnic cleansing.

Well, then they'll suffer from it. Not that I really care either way.

Edi

[Vympel]

Yeah, me neither, I don't care much for the US Republican vs Democrat dichotomy, I just thought it'd be interesting to see Republicans do it (they were doing it to a certain extent back in 1999, but not much).

[Sea Skimmer]

I'm not saying the Muslims and Croats were any angels either. I've read the war memoirs of one Finnish guy who fough as a mercenary on the Croat side against the Muslims, and there was some quite sickening stuff in it. Some guys in their unit (international mercenaries, and most the lowest form of scum you will run into anywhere) actually considered blowing a dam that would have resulted in 15,000+ dead civilians in one stroke, but they were emphatically told not to do it.

One Croats group threatened to bombard the reactor of the nation’s only nuclear power station, which was shut down but still fully fueled at the time. Thankfully sanity prevailed, and the reactor had a protective dome.

[Durandal]

The ANCESTORS of these soldiers whose graves were never found, that's who. The public outcry to this attrocity was JACK SHIT, where these mass graves were, no one ever took the time to exhume the bodies and give them a decent burial. The Sons of Confed. Veterans and Daughters of the Confederacy scraped up enough money to put memorials on these graves, but the government didn't do crap. What makes these people less important than those buried by the Serbs?

Ah, so that's what Shep's standard-issue whining about the grave (excuse the pun) injustices done to the Confederacy has to do with Bill Clinton and George W. Bush's respective military actions. How could I have missed it?

Jesus Christ, does the HAB jerk its knees in unison or something?

I believe Shep was making a point by stating that this has happened many times in history without any kind of a public repercussion, and what makes this time any different than the others?

No, he was doing what he always does: trying to divert the thread off-course and into one of his pet issues.

EDIT: And at least those soldiers got something to eat. Millions of people die of starvation every day. Now I'll just wait for someone to bring up the fact that that is utterly irrelevant, so I can scream at him for being insensitive because it's relevant to the families of those people. See how the door swings both ways?

EDIT2: Upon further reflection, I can see your point, but I still think that Shep was stretching it a little. In any case, consider my above comments withdrawn.

[TrailerParkJawa]

Fuck's sake, the goddamned handwriting was on the fucking wall repeatedly
during Clinton's term, and all he did was worthless TLAM strikes.

People have been knocking off American citizens for several decades now, but not at the level of 9/11. What I was saying is that there was no political will among the general population to warrant an invasion. I didn't see Bush attacking these assholes as soon as he came into office.

Bush was against nation building, he never mentioned Iraq as a someone we needed to take down before 9/11. So WP's points are valid. There was no political will in the leadership or the citizenship for big campains against Iraq or the Taliban. In fact, had Clinton invaded Afganistan to kill OBL, the Repubs would have called for his head.

I dont remember any mass calls from the public for killing Al-Queda after the Cole, after Khobar, etc. People want revenge for a few weeks then it all fades from memory. The difference with 9/11 was the SCOPE of the attack. Not only did it kill some 2500 people. It had profound economic impacts on an economy that was already in bad shape. The Cole affected a small number of people, it is hard to find an American that was not affected by 9/11.

[Sarevok]

However, Bush has shown a willingness that Clinton never did when it comes
to putting the screws on our enemies (and we have enemies, oh yes)

Bush has made more enemies than friends. You call that a good thing ? America is the number one hated country in the world at the moment. Everybody dislikes America. Ask any man in the street in any country about Bush and most likely answer will be they hate him. Bush defied world public opinion by going to war with Iraq and that a lot of enemies for America. Hardly a good way to win the war on terror.

[Sea Skimmer]

Bush was against nation building, he never mentioned Iraq as a someone we needed to take down before 9/11. So WP's points are valid.

Actually his administration was producing much talk about it before September 11th and it was matched by a steady increase in air strikes and loser No Fly Zone ROE.

[Sarevok]

Ask any man in the street in any country about Bush and most likely answer will be they hate him. Bush defied world public opinion by going to war with Iraq and that a lot of enemies for America

There is a gramattical mistake in that line. It should be :

Ask any man in the street in any country about Bush and most likely answer will be they hate him. Bush defied world public opinion by going to war with Iraq and that made a lot of enemies for America

Will a mod please fix it ?