Four French anti-aircraft missiles found in Iraq

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-10-03 11:52pm

http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?ty ... ID=3555989

Thoughts?

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-10-04 12:01am

It could have been an independent military contracter.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-10-04 12:03am

I doubt the French government had anything to do with the acquisition. This was probably a black market arms deal. I'm sure the serial numbers on the weapons will begin the paper trail.

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-10-04 12:08am

It would not surprise me if the French allowed that to happen. Many there were openly hoping for a US defeat or a Vietnam like quagmire for us. Like Dien Bien Phu..... uh, waitaminit... I mean like Algeria..... uhhhh...

damn French....

Montcalm · Post by **Montcalm** » 2003-10-04 12:08am

Well if the missiles were sold to Iraq by a French,should the SOB be hanged for it.

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-10-04 12:12am

Montcalm wrote:Well if the missiles were sold to Iraq by a French,should the SOB be hanged for it. :?

Wooo!

Does that mean I can hang Nixon, Reagon and Bush Snr for doing similar deals with all sorts of shifty pseudo-terrorist groups?

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-10-04 12:13am

weemadando wrote: Wooo!

Does that mean I can hang Nixon, Reagon and Bush Snr for doing similar deals with all sorts of shifty pseudo-terrorist groups?

And of course thats a much abbreviated list.

Jesus people, get a grip on reality. Dodgy deals happen all the time. Its not like any country can even begin to claim the moral highground.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-10-04 12:17am

"It is not the first time Polish troops found ammunition in Iraq but to our surprise these missiles were produced in 2003."

Yeah the Polish know enough about Roland missiles to tell whether they were built in 2003

This report is not credible at all: "Mleczak said Polish troops were notified about the missiles by a local Iraqi, who received a reward for the information."

He's probably the smart-arse who told them they were 'new'.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-10-04 12:23am

[quote="Vympel"]"It is not the first time Polish troops found ammunition in Iraq but to our surprise these missiles were produced in 2003."

Yeah the Polish know enough about Roland missiles to tell whether they were built in 2003

This report is not credible at all: "Mleczak said Polish troops were notified about the missiles by a local Iraqi, who received a reward for the information."

He's probably the smart-arse who told them they were 'new'.[/quote

Except the 101 Airborne also found not only Roland 3 missiles but also a complete firing unit in northern Iraq in May. Roland 3 entered service in 1995.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-10-04 12:34am

Sea Skimmer wrote: Except the 101 Airborne also found not only Roland 3 missiles but also a complete firing unit in northern Iraq in May. Roland 3 entered service in 1995.

And Kornet-Es were fired at US tanks. This is one of those Freedom Fries bullshit stories, along with the other numerous unsubstantiated and/or false claims, like these:

1. September 1-15, 2002: In its ?Week in Review? section, The New York Times published an article entitled ?Psst? Can I Get a Bomb Trigger?? alleging that in 1998, France and Germany had supplied Iraq with high-precision switches used in detonating nuclear weapons.

The Embassy issued a denial, which was published the following week in that section?s Letters to the Editor column, noting that a French company had indeed received an order for 120 switches, presented as ?spare parts? for medical equipment but that the French authorities had immediately barred this sale and alerted both Germany and the country that had previously sold the equipment that incorporated the switches.

2. On November 5, 2002, the front page of The Washington Post carried a story entitled ?Four Nations Thought to Possess Smallpox.? According to this article, France, along with Russia, Iraq and North Korea, possesses prohibited human smallpox strains. This ?information? was purportedly given to the Washington Post by an ?American intelligence source,? who mentioned the existence of a ?report? on this subject.

At the Embassy?s request, the Post subsequently published a rebuttal from the Embassy Press Office noting that France abides by WHO provisions and by its own national regulations prohibiting the possession of human smallpox strains.

3. On March 7, 2003, Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz asserted that two French companies had sold Iraq spare parts for airplanes and helicopters. The article referred to ?a U.S. intelligence source.?

On March 8, the two companies named in the story formally denied these allegations, as did the Embassy, which had already given a categorical reply to the question put to it by the reporter. On March 10, the Foreign Ministry deputy spokesperson reiterated the two companies? denial, adding that the French authorities had never authorized the export or re-export of such spare parts and strictly respected the arms embargo and Security Council resolutions. That denial was published, which did not prevent the Washington Times from regularly referring to this case.

4. On March 13, New York Times columnist William Safire began a series of articles entitled ?The French Connection? in which he claimed that France had permitted the delivery of sensitive equipment to Iraq. According to him, a French intermediary had facilitated Iraq?s acquisition, through Syria, of chemical components for long-range surface-to-surface missiles. Safire asserted in the same article that ?he had been told? that the Société Nationale des Poudres et Explosifs had signed a contract in April 2002 to provide Iraq with five tons of dimethyl hydrazine, a chemical that can be used for missile propulsion.

The Foreign Ministry spokesman denied these allegations on March 14, noting that it had neither delivered nor authorized the delivery of such products, either directly or indirectly. In his interview with CNN/CBS, President Chirac expressed himself most clearly on this subject. Although he no longer mentioned the SNPE after that, Safire nevertheless continued his attacks in two successive columns. Moreover, The New York Times never published the Embassy?s rebuttal to these charges nor took the trouble to answer the letter the French Ambassador personally sent them on this subject.

5. On April 2 on MSNBC, Joe Scarborough accused France of selling Iraq ?planes, missiles, armored vehicles, radar equipment and spare parts for Iraqi fighter planes,? and of offering to sell nuclear reactors, without mentioning specific dates.

Needless to say, France fully complies with the UN sanctions against Iraq, including a ban of all weapons sales.

6. On April 21, Newsweek reported the ?possible? discovery of Roland 2 missiles by coalition forces in Iraq and implied that they had been manufactured in 2002. A charred Roland 3 missile launcher was also allegedly found.

Once again, the Ministry spokesman had to specify that France had sold no military equipment to Iraq since the summer of 1990 and that it was furthermore impossible for Roland 2s to have been manufactured in 2002, given the fact that they were not manufactured after 1993. This information had in fact been communicated to the author of the article, who made very limited use of it.

7. On May 6, The Washington Times once again attacked our country, indicating that according to an ?anonymous American intelligence source,? France had helped wanted Iraqi leaders to escape to Europe by providing them with French passports.

Although the author of that article did call the Embassy and included our denial in his article, he nevertheless referred to this supposed ?scandal? three times in the following days. The fact that the Foreign Ministry?s spokesman issued a categorical denial did not dissuade the Washington Times.

8. Recently, as reported again by the Washington Times, other ?intelligence sources? accused France and Russia of seeking to sign oil contracts with Iraq just before the start of the war. A ?military expert? asked by MSNBC about the coalition?s failure to discover banned weapons insinuated that ?weapons could well have been discovered? and that they ?could very well be French or Russian,? which would have led the administration not to mention them ?out of concern for easing tensions.?

Furthermore, the alleged Roland 3 was 'charred'. How convenient. It had been blown up- quite interesting to tell the difference then, isn't it? The 'alleged' find was made in April, not in May.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-10-04 01:06am

Vympel wrote:
Furthermore, the alleged Roland 3 was 'charred'. How convenient. It had been blown up- quite interesting to tell the difference then, isn't it?

No not really since the launchers considerably different. A fragment of the radar antenna would be sufficient to make the ID. And HARM missiles, of which the US expended many hundreds, tend to cause rather heavy damage to small missile firing units.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-10-04 01:48am

Durran Korr wrote:http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?ty ... ID=3555989

Thoughts?

Bleh..so what? even if the French were doing naughty things whats the US going to do about it given the 'evidence'?

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-10-04 02:32am

Sea Skimmer wrote:
No not really since the launchers considerably different. A fragment of the radar antenna would be sufficient to make the ID. And HARM missiles, of which the US expended many hundreds, tend to cause rather heavy damage to small missile firing units.

The Roland 3 firing unit differs from the Roland 2 firing unit in software only- there are no distinctive visible differences- this is from a French Ministry of Foreign Affairs Statement. Both missiles use the same guidance- the difference is primarily one of performance.

Besides, a Kornet-E looks 'significantly' different to a SS-11 or a HOT, that still didn't stop the bullshit flowing in from multiple sources, bullshit which was only debunked later, and not even in the public forum- it took a Team Abrams report to say so. Here, a single newsweek report that says a 'charred' launcher (which is not inconsistent with a HARM hit- eg charred=burnt out) was 'alleged' to have been found sometime in the midst of fog of war in April- I don't buy it for a second.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-10-04 08:14am

A call for indepth analysis:

As discussed, in April it was said that they found Roland 2 missiles, and it was insinuated by the Newsweek article that they were built in 2002- France found this most curious, since production of the Roland 2 ended in 1993. The same article also alleged a 'charred' Roland 3 launcher, whoose credibility I've already shown I don't care for.

Then I heard that the reason it was insinuated that the Roland 2 was built in 2002 was because the missiles had this on it:

"05/11 KND 2002"

It was deemed from this that the missiles were built in 2002 and came from France.

What people failed to realise was that the Iraqi's spent great time and effort in returning what they had in their inventories back to an operational state. The missile tag could easily have come from the fact that a Roland supplied pre 1990 was put through the Iraqi Kindi Research, Testing, Development, and Engineering facility and tagged with the Iraqi's own marker tag. This could possibly account for the "KND" tag.

The Iranians for example reverse engineered British Rapier SAMs and the Iraqi's had a good history of missile development, they could with effort refurbish and extend existing missiles in their inventory.

The Iraqi's also cobbled together Kub missiles (SA-6 GAINFUL) with infra-red seeker heads from R-60 (AA-8 APHID) air-to-air missiles. These missiles were also discovered by US troops.

Simply having a tag with a 2002 or 2003 date on it proves nothing if the Iraqi's simply refurbished and extended the life of existing stocks of Rolands and tagged them accordingly.

The French ministry in April investigated the tags and stated that they have no resemblence to manufacturer plates assigned by the manufacturer (French Diplomatic News)

This could also account for the Polish finding missiles with a XX/XX KND 2003 tag, and saying it must've been 'built in 2003'.

A guy suggested this possibility elsewhere- though not referenced as such- plenty of support for it (the refurbed SA-6 missiles, the French denial regarding the lack of resemblance to their own plates and the date of production), and it's the most reasonable explanation that fits all the facts.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-10-04 04:23pm

weemadando wrote:
Montcalm wrote:Well if the missiles were sold to Iraq by a French,should the SOB be hanged for it.
Wooo!

Does that mean I can hang Nixon, Reagon and Bush Snr for doing similar deals with all sorts of shifty pseudo-terrorist groups?

You missed Bush Junior, paying $300,000 to a Philippine terrorist group that has links to Al-Qaeda (the Abu Sayyaf).

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-10-05 11:46am

The Dark wrote:
weemadando wrote:
Montcalm wrote:Well if the missiles were sold to Iraq by a French,should the SOB be hanged for it.
Wooo!

Does that mean I can hang Nixon, Reagon and Bush Snr for doing similar deals with all sorts of shifty pseudo-terrorist groups?
You missed Bush Junior, paying $300,000 to a Philippine terrorist group that has links to Al-Qaeda (the Abu Sayyaf).

When did he do this>

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-10-05 01:24pm

PainRack wrote:
The Dark wrote:
weemadando wrote: Wooo!

Does that mean I can hang Nixon, Reagon and Bush Snr for doing similar deals with all sorts of shifty pseudo-terrorist groups?
You missed Bush Junior, paying $300,000 to a Philippine terrorist group that has links to Al-Qaeda (the Abu Sayyaf).
When did he do this>

When the Burnhams (Floridian missionaries) were kidnapped. All the media initally reported that the money to ransom them was privately provided, but this page quotes reports that the money was actually from the US government (who also trained the Abu Sayyaf). It's actually semi-humorous from a certain point of view, because the FBI announced Abu Sayyaf was an Al-Qaeda branch to justify intervention in the South Pacific, then the Bush administration let slip that they had raised the money to pay Abu Sayyaf for the release of the missionaries (oops!). According to the Washington Times, the State Department opposed the payments, while the Pentagon and National Security Council endorsed them.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-10-05 06:21pm

"A movement's news and views?" Have you anything more convincing - i.e. from the mainstream?

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-10-05 06:24pm

Also - Sea Skimmer: do you have a link for that Roland 3 find in May?

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-10-05 07:09pm

This should be clear proof how desperate the Iraqi Army really was. They were buying French missles for God's sake!

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-10-05 10:12pm

Axis Kast wrote:"A movement's news and views?" Have you anything more convincing - i.e. from the mainstream?

OK, I'll do this establishing each link.

Abu Sayyaf is connected to Al Qaeda:
Dehai.org (tentative, only makes the claim. Is an article from the Washington Post reprinted)
ABCNews.com

That the Burnhams were kidnapped by Abu Sayyaf:
Was on every news station in Florida. Is also at CNN.com, Mindanao News, and Manila Times.

That the US Government channeled money to Abu Sayyaf:
ABCNews.com
Manila Times
The FBI planted a tracking device in the ransom
The money was raised privately, but payment was arranged through the State Department

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-10-06 04:31am

Repeat after me:

VYMPEL IS ALWAYS RIGHT. I WILL LISTEN TO VYMPEL. VYMPEL. IS. GOD.

Poland: French Missile Report Was Wrong
Sat Oct 4, 3:08 PM ET

By BEATA PASEK, Associated Press Writer

WARSAW, Poland - After a protest from French President Jacques Chirac, Poland said Saturday it had been mistaken in reporting that its troops found new French-made anti-aircraft misiles in central Iraq (news - web sites).

Chirac swiftly denied selling Iraq weapons in violation of the U.N. weapons embargo imposed against Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s regime in 1990. The claims, he said, "are as false today as they were yesterday."

An aide to the Polish prime minister said an initial report that the Roland missiles found by Polish troops days ago were produced in 2003 was incorrect. France said it stopped producing any type of Roland missile in 1993.

Prime Minister Leszek Miller met with Chirac twice to explain the mistake, said the aide, Tadeusz Iwinski. The two leaders were in Rome on Saturday for a European Union (news - web sites) summit.

"There can be no 2003 missiles since these missiles have not been made for 15 years," Chirac told reporters in Rome. "Polish soldiers confused things. I told ... Miller so frankly ? friendly but firmly."

France used similar arguments to rebut allegations in April that recently made Roland missiles have been found in Iraq.

The report first came in a statement by a ministry spokesman to Polish state television that the troops uncovered French-made Roland missiles in the town of Hilla, in the zone of central Iraq where the Poles lead a peacekeeping force. A ministry statement said the missiles were destroyed on Wednesday.

Maj. Andrzej Wiatrowski, a spokesman in Iraq for the Polish-led force, said pictures of the missiles taken before they were destroyed might clear up when they were made.

"That's the job for our superiors. Our job is to recover and destroy dangerous material," Wiatrowski said by satellite phone.

Iwinski said the matter has been settled. "It was wrongly said that the rockets were produced in that year," Iwinski said by telephone from the summit. "President Chirac has accepted Prime Minister Leszek Miller's explanation."

The Polish defense minister, Jerzy Szmajdzinski, "expressed his regrets" for the mistake, a ministry statement said.

France long had close ties to Iraq that included lucrative weapons deals. Paris supplied arms, in exchange for oil, during the eight-year Iran-Iraq war.

In June, an Associated Press reporter traveling with the 3rd Infantry Division found two Roland 2 missile launchers in excellent condition on Habaniyah airfield, 45 miles west of Baghdad. Each launcher had four missiles mounted on it, but both launchers had been flipped onto their sides, apparently in an effort to unload the flatbed trucks on which they were mounted.

At the time, U.S. Army officers said dozens of such missiles had been found on military bases across Iraq and all were believed to have been delivered before July 1990. (Again, the Roland 3 in April claim was not true, and for Axis Kast, there is no report of any find in May)

The French Foreign Ministry emphasized on Saturday that France has not authorized the sale of weapons, or even spare parts, to Iraq since July 1990, when the United Nations (news - web sites) imposed sanctions on weapons sales following Saddam's invasion of Kuwait.

The ministry statement said Roland 1 missiles and launchers were exported to Iraq in 1980-81, while Roland 2 missiles were exported from 1983 to 1986. France stopped making Roland 2s in 1988 and Roland 3s in 1993, it said.

France used similar arguments to rebut allegations in april that recently made Roland missiles have been found in iraq.

The Polish Defense Ministry said the Roland missiles were among about a dozen missiles uncovered near Hilla on Tuesday, including Soviet-made Malutka[sic], French Hot [sic] and French-German Milan missiles. The Roland missiles are about 25 feet long, radar-guided and launched from the back of a truck.

The U.S. military found 35 Roland missiles when it captured Baghdad International Airport in April. Roland missiles also were found when Australian troops captured an airfield in western Iraq.

The Web site GlobalSecurity.org says the Roland weapon system is intended for anti-aircraft defense of armored and mechanized the units to counter aircraft flying to nearly at 1 1/2 times the speed of sound or hovering helicopters.

Video footage exists of what the Polish Forces found. In this footage a Polish soldier is holding up several metal tags with the manufactuer SNIAS. This is a company that no longer exists. It became Aerospatiale in 1984 and then EADS. The date of manufacturer and the serial codes state "84". The Polish Defence Minister has already expressed his regrets at the information originally released.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-10-06 05:03am

Vympel wrote:Repeat after me:

VYMPEL IS ALWAYS RIGHT. I WILL LISTEN TO VYMPEL. VYMPEL. IS. GOD.

Vympel is an Aussie. Vympel distorts and manipulates. QED.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-10-06 05:29am

Stuart Mackey wrote:
Vympel is an Aussie. Vympel distorts and manipulates. QED.

Stuart is a Kiwi. Stuart is jealous of his superior Australian brethren. QED.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-10-06 06:30am

Vympel wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:
Vympel is an Aussie. Vympel distorts and manipulates. QED.

Stuart is a Kiwi. Stuart is jealous of his superior Australian brethren. QED.

Vympel proves Stuart correct once again. Undisputable proof of the inferior Australian breed.QED.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Four French anti-aircraft missiles found in Iraq

Four French anti-aircraft missiles found in Iraq

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