Premiers fear collapse of health-care system

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-02-28 01:08am

theski wrote:TO sustain your Health care levels you will need to raise taxes again... at least that is what I got out of this..

Yes, by only $2 billion a year. We may be only a tenth of the size of the US, but that's still chump change for national health care and you know it. I see you are just desperately looking for excuses to cast bullshit about socialized health care.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-02-28 01:31am

Joe wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:
Joe wrote:Canada doesn't have any particular need for a fabulous military, as long as we're here.
How... noble.
Nothing noble about it. It just doesn't make sense for them to have the Roman Army when they have a neighbor to the south they're on mostly good terms who already has it.

Nothing quite like the Canadian image of running crying to the US if anyone makes fun of us:

Naughty country: "$%^%^# you Canada!!"

Canada: "Daddy daddy he called me names!"

US: *cocks gun* "What'd you call my bitc...er...boy again?"

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-02-28 01:44am

No, it's more like the US being a heavily armed and somewhat belligerent homeowner in a bad neighbourhood. If you're his neighbour and you get along well with him, you're safer than the guy at the other end of the street.

theski · Post by **theski** » 2004-02-28 11:45am

Darth Wong wrote

We may be only a tenth of the size of the US, but that's still chump change for national health care and you know it. I see you are just desperately looking for excuses to cast bullshit about socialized health care.

ctv.ca

OTTAWA — Most Canadians believe access to health care has worsened during the last couple of years, suggests a poll commissioned by the Canadian Medical Association.

Two thirds of those polled said their families had to wait longer for medical service in the last year than they thought was reasonable. Results of the Ipsos-Reid poll suggest the federal reinvestment in health care in recent years has not alleviated the perceived crisis in medicare. "Waiting for health care is literally making Canadians sick and tired," CMA president Sunil Patel said Wednesday at a news conference.

"Canadians have told us their health-care system has not improved despite a royal commission . . . a six-volume report from a Senate committee, two federal-provincial-territorial health accords and a reinfusion of money into the system."

A large majority of those polled were concerned about long waits for specialists (75 per cent), emergency room services (74 per cent) and diagnostic services such as MRIs (73 per cent).

Surprisingly, only 22 per cent thought access to family doctors had grown worse. Various reports have suggested there is a critical shortage of family doctors.

Seven per cent of those polled said their condition deteriorated during the wait for service, and two per cent said the delay caused a death

Mike.... Its the waiting time that is the problem.... I just call and get to see a specialist.....

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-02-28 12:30pm

theski wrote:Mike.... Its the waiting time that is the problem.... I just call and get to see a specialist.....

The last time I needed to see a specialist, I had to wait a whole week. OH NO!!!!!

You are basing your argument off media alarmism and bullshit, as usual.

And how do you compare the wait times to those incurred by HMOs, hmmm? Especially when many of them won't even pay for certain things at all, as they are notorious for finding ways to get out of paying?

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2004-02-28 12:32pm

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but what I'm seeing from the quoted article is:

"Politicians threatening immediate government crisis if they don't get their way." Business at usual, story at 10.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-02-28 12:49pm

Iceberg wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong here, but what I'm seeing from the quoted article is:

"Politicians threatening immediate government crisis if they don't get their way." Business at usual, story at 10.

Correct. And this thread is "theski looks desperately for excuses to declare that socialized medicine doesn't work, from his health care utopia where 38 million Americans are totally uninsured and the rest balance precariously on the flimsy assurances of their respective HMOs and the hope that they don't get fired".

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2004-02-28 12:54pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Iceberg wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong here, but what I'm seeing from the quoted article is:

"Politicians threatening immediate government crisis if they don't get their way." Business at usual, story at 10.
Correct. And this thread is "theski looks desperately for excuses to declare that socialized medicine doesn't work, from his health care utopia where 38 million Americans are totally uninsured and the rest balance precariously on the flimsy assurances of their respective HMOs and the hope that they don't get fired".

Let's not forget that insurance premiums in the US are asininely ridiculous (last time I argued this with AssholeDent over at SB.com, he claimed that his workplace-subsidized health plan was cheaper than a government plan because he doesn't realize that most of the cost of his health plan is taken out of his paycheck before his weekly pay is even calculated).

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-02-28 01:00pm

Iceberg wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Iceberg wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong here, but what I'm seeing from the quoted article is:

"Politicians threatening immediate government crisis if they don't get their way." Business at usual, story at 10.
Correct. And this thread is "theski looks desperately for excuses to declare that socialized medicine doesn't work, from his health care utopia where 38 million Americans are totally uninsured and the rest balance precariously on the flimsy assurances of their respective HMOs and the hope that they don't get fired".
Let's not forget that insurance premiums in the US are asininely ridiculous (last time I argued this with AssholeDent over at SB.com, he claimed that his workplace-subsidized health plan was cheaper than a government plan because he doesn't realize that most of the cost of his health plan is taken out of his paycheck before his weekly pay is even calculated).

Dent and his rabid debating style along with itchy locking-thread finger have made me give up on that forum now, so I've left. The place has gone downhill these past two years and when you get mods like him incapable of understanding what the hell's going on, it's too much.

Mind you, on this topic I had quite a "debate" with others on another forum about private healthcare plans and insurance versus a gov't operated system and it seems most Americans cry foul of the gov't system either because they've never had to use their own health coverage or that it's not the American way to trust the gov't with anything important.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2004-02-28 01:05pm

DOesn't this argument pop up every month or so?

Personally, I prefer our system (a curious combination of social healthcare and health insurance) where I don't have to worry to pay ridiculously high treatments or get worried to death if I get fired...
The American system doesn't strike me as fair, especially when large portions of the populace aren't insured at all...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-02-28 01:06pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Mind you, on this topic I had quite a "debate" with others on another forum about private healthcare plans and insurance versus a gov't operated system and it seems most Americans cry foul of the gov't system either because they've never had to use their own health coverage or that it's not the American way to trust the gov't with anything important.

True. They will tend to make good points about what the government does wrong, but then leap to the bizarre conclusion that giant insurance companies will not be guilty of these problems (while ignoring the fact that the government does not actually provide health care in Canada; it's just the sole insurer, and the doctors are still private businesses).

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-02-28 01:11pm

Dahak wrote:DOesn't this argument pop up every month or so?

Personally, I prefer our system (a curious combination of social healthcare and health insurance) where I don't have to worry to pay ridiculously high treatments or get worried to death if I get fired...
The American system doesn't strike me as fair, especially when large portions of the populace aren't insured at all...

That's pretty much like the NHS here. You can go for the typical healthcare system setup or if you really want or need to, go private with the likes of Bupa Medical and other private medical firms where ops not on the NHS nor are they life-threateningly urgent can be given, for a price.

And it's funny, but those for the private system say that the socialist system is unfair given everyone has to pay taxes towards stuff they may never need or that the guy who gets lung cancer and needs a new kidney to boot, is getting more than his fair share compared to the guy who has an ENT appointment every 6 months for two years.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2004-02-28 01:20pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
Dahak wrote:DOesn't this argument pop up every month or so?

Personally, I prefer our system (a curious combination of social healthcare and health insurance) where I don't have to worry to pay ridiculously high treatments or get worried to death if I get fired...
The American system doesn't strike me as fair, especially when large portions of the populace aren't insured at all...
That's pretty much like the NHS here. You can go for the typical healthcare system setup or if you really want or need to, go private with the likes of Bupa Medical and other private medical firms where ops not on the NHS nor are they life-threateningly urgent can be given, for a price.

And it's funny, but those for the private system say that the socialist system is unfair given everyone has to pay taxes towards stuff they may never need or that the guy who gets lung cancer and needs a new kidney to boot, is getting more than his fair share compared to the guy who has an ENT appointment every 6 months for two years.

We don't pay taxes, but directly to the health insurance company. Currently the rate is around 12-14% of your income a month, of which the half is payed by your employer (if you're on social welfare the state pays completely for your health). As a student I only have to pay 50 Euros for my health insurance.
If you earn enough money (~4000 Euro a month IIRC), you can go into a private health insurance company, which are a bit cheaper.

theski · Post by **theski** » 2004-02-28 01:23pm

Darth Wong wrote

Correct. And this thread is "theski looks desperately for excuses to declare that socialized medicine doesn't work, from his health care utopia where 38 million Americans are totally uninsured and the rest balance precariously on the flimsy assurances of their respective HMOs and the hope that they don't get fired".

So this is more media hype????

Minor problems become intractable because government decisions are financed by taxes and imposed with police power. Government coercion guarantees that somebody, if not everybody, will be unhappy. If people cannot escape the system because they are forced into it, then they will bicker and fight endless and often silly battles. Politics is simply no way to run a kitchen or a car factory or a whole lot of other things.

But hospital food is probably among the least of Manitoba patients' concerns. According to a national poll, four out of five Canadians are unhappy with their socialized health care system and believe it has worsened noticeably in just the past five years. Doctors in Manitoba apparently agree: Almost half of them—an astonishing 1,800—have left the province in the past decade alone.

David Gratzer, a Canadian health policy commentator, published a blockbuster book last year entitled Code Blue. Gratzer revealed that the quality of care Canada's system provides to ordinary citizens matters less to its apologists than the quality of care it denies to the so-called rich. The egalitarian impulse that drives Canada's "universal" health care system calls for treating everybody the same; all patients get "free" care in the public system and are generally denied the option of getting faster or better care for a fee in the private sector.

http://www.mackinac.org/article.asp?ID=2748

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2004-02-28 01:34pm

Holy cow! A pro-privatization think-tank publishes a study that claims a government function is bad! I would never have imagined it!

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2004-02-28 01:39pm

"Government is bad, mmkay?"