China, France Hold Naval Drill Before Taiwan Vote

[Ma Deuce]

Isn't it true that Russian MBTs did not have thermal imaging sights until they bought them from *you guessed it* in the early '90s?

Bought the sights, that is.

[Aaron]

The French will sell weapons to anyone with money.

Isn't it true that Russian MBTs did not have thermal imaging sights until they bought them from *you guessed it* in the early '90s?

I think the reason why they were using infrared searchlights and not thermal imaging was a cost thing. With so many MBT's they just couldn't afford to outfit them. I noticed that thermal imaging only showed up on Russian equipment after the cold war ended, so maybe they did get them from the French but I doubt it.

[Ma Deuce]

The French will sell weapons to anyone with money.

Isn't it true that Russian MBTs did not have thermal imaging sights until they bought them from *you guessed it* in the early '90s?

I think the reason why they were using infrared searchlights and not thermal imaging was a cost thing. With so many MBT's they just couldn't afford to outfit them. I noticed that thermal imaging only showed up on Russian equipment after the cold war ended, so maybe they did get them from the French but I doubt it.

But none of the Russian tanks during the cold war had them. You think if they did have them, they could have given them to some of their "elite" tanks. Since infared searchlights are still vulnerable to such things as smokescreens, TI sights can be a huge force-multiplier in a modern tank battle against enemies using ISL sights. If the Russians did have them during the Cold War, it's possible they underestimated their value until after Gulf War I.

[Aaron]

It's possible that they underestimated the usefullness of the TI sight. Afterall they had developed reactive armor and didn't employ it untill after the Israeli's proved how effective it could be. It may have taken the 91 Gulf War to show them how effective a TI sight could be.

[Vympel]

It probably is a carbon copy of the Lavi. The Chinese are never shy about copying what works. Hell the Silkworm missile is a copy of the Exocet.

The C-801/802/803 series are copies of the Exocet, but SILKWORM is a version of the Soviet STYX. Completely different.

As to the J-10, it looks vaguely like a Lavi, and its genesis defintiely was the Lavi. If this was a moron board, it'd now be invaded by flocks of moron PRChinese drones posting bad photoshops of it and masturbating profusely about how it'll clear the sky of anything, combined with vehement denials that the J-10 is anything other than the product of Chinese know-how, never mind it's significant Russian innards.

Isn't it true that Russian MBTs did not have thermal imaging sights until they bought them from *you guessed it* in the early '90s?

No. The Soviets had developed the Agava-M1 thermal imager by themselves a few years after the TTS on the M60A3 and TIS on the M1 were in much more widespread service. It's still deployed on Russian T-90s, but not all of them (though it is on all of the small number of T-80UMs).

Thing is, there's no production line for the Agava-M1, so they're quite expensive to make, hence the small number of them in service on T-90s and T-80UMs.

What the Russians did get from the French is thermal imagers for export equipment; the Russians don't use it themselves. It's against the law for the Russian Army to use anything that's not domestic Russian. So you have every Indian T-90S equipped with high-quality French TI.

But none of the Russian tanks during the cold war had them. You think if they did have them, they could have given them to some of their "elite" tanks. Since infared searchlights are still vulnerable to such things as smokescreens, TI sights can be a huge force-multiplier in a modern tank battle against enemies using ISL sights. If the Russians did have them during the Cold War, it's possible they underestimated their value until after Gulf War I.

In addition to what I said above, they fully understood their value- a story told by a Russian guy on another forum told how during Agava-M1 trials the tank commander was very impressed and asked when the Americans would have it. He was quite concerned when he was told that they already had it on all their tanks.

So basically, the technology has been there since the 1980s, but the large scale procurement of T-90s and T-80UMs and new generation tanks that would've justified large scale production preparations didnt' happen for obvious reasons.

[Aaron]

Are the Chinese still using the Silkworm then? Fuck the Styx is grossly obselete now.

[Vympel]

Are the Chinese still using the Silkworm then? Fuck the Styx is grossly obselete now.

Think so. The C-XXX series has primacy however.

[Ma Deuce]

As to the J-10, it looks vaguely like a Lavi, and its genesis defintiely was the Lavi. If this was a moron board, it'd now be invaded by flocks of moron PRChinese drones posting bad photoshops of it and masturbating profusely about how it'll clear the sky of anything, combined with vehement denials that the J-10 is anything other than the product of Chinese know-how, never mind it's significant Russian innards.

It's not just PRC morons. The French posters do that alot too (funny how that coincides with the subject of the thread). On other forums I have seen one poster rate the AMX-30 tank as better than the M1A1, and the way they wank about the Leclerc is unbelievable (especially about the "modular armor", nevermind the fact that the Merkava among others has that too), or another suggested that the US Army should replace the M16 rifle with the FAMAS.
But the PRC morons just as bad. The worst wanking I've seen from them so far is on the Type 98 MBT, especially the JD-3 "laser blinding device".(wouldn't that be useless anainst US/Euro MBTs anyway, who have anti-laser coatings on their optics?)

So basically, the technology has been there since the 1980s, but the large scale procurement of T-90s and T-80UMs and new generation tanks that would've justified large scale production preparations didnt' happen for obvious reasons.

Which leads me to another question: How many MBTs do the Russians have left in service (and I actually mean in service, not sitting in surplus yards ), and of those, how many are T-90s and T-80UMs?

[Vympel]

It's not just PRC morons. The French posters do that alot too (funny how that coincides with the subject of the thread). On other forums I have seen one poster rate the AMX-30 tank as better than the M1A1, and the way they wank about the Leclerc is unbelievable (especially about the "modular armor", nevermind the fact that the Merkava among others has that too), or another suggested that the US Army should replace the M16 rifle with the FAMAS.

Ugh. I thought the populations of First World countries weren't morons ...

But the PRC morons just as bad. The worst wanking I've seen from them so far is on the Type 98 MBT, especially the JD-3 "laser blinding device".(wouldn't that be useless anainst US/Euro MBTs anyway, who have anti-laser coatings on their optics?)

Yup. It's a stupid gimmick, and pretty much the only distinguishing feature of it.

Which leads me to another question: How many MBTs do the Russians have left in service (and I actually mean in service, not sitting in surplus yards ), and of those, how many are T-90s and T-80UMs?

This is a tough question to answer. The best I can do is the numbers Jane's gives:

T-55: 1,200 tanks- this number is perhaps for tanks officially "on the books" rather than in storage- a huge amount was built and Russia never copped any massive T-55 losses in any war. So we can only assume these are the most recent upgraded examples. Whether they're actually used though is another matter. They may well be in storage too.

T-62: 2,000 tanks approx- again, same for T-55. Varying mixes seen in Chechnya though- some with LRF boxes, some with the full set of applique armor, some just looking their original, clean selves (but certainly not first production run, probably early T-62M)

T-64: out of service. Never as reliable as it's companions, and with a production base in Ukraine. 4,300 tanks in storage.

T-72: 9,200 in service. Of these, I'd say the most used were the T-72B and T-72BM, simply because these are the only models I see in Chechnya photos.

T-80: 4,500 of various models, though the T-80U (seen in Chechnya) is in the majority. The rest are almost certainly T-80BVs (also seen in Chechnya)

T-90: 150 according to Jane's, double that according to other sources. Whichever is true, this year the Russians are starting to buy tanks again (14 new T-90s this year- probably to give the tank factory at Nizhniy Tagil some serious, non-overhaul work, must be T-90Ms with the new welded turret, considering India has these now)

So there's around 15,000 tanks they can call on. Almost 20,000 if the T-64s were brought up to spec.

[Ma Deuce]

Ugh. I thought the populations of First World countries weren't morons ...

You'll find wankers like this in just about every country. For example, there are actually Canadians who believe that Canada could repel a full-scale invasion from the United States (usually these morons cite the War of 1812 as evidence as to why we could do so ).