The Kernel on Cuba and Castro

[Joe]

Not to humour this irritating "Cuba" off-topic thread tangent which the Israel apologists have gleefully seized upon, but:

How come there aren't hoardes of wealthy Europeans, Canadians, Australians and Asians flocking to Cuba for vacation like the rest of the Carribean??

Do Americans not take vacations in Cuba? I know several people around here who have taken vacations in Cuba. They have resorts etc.

Yeah, some Americans go to Cuba, although many of them aren't legally supposed to be there. The government has been cracking down on this recently.

[Col. Crackpot]

Not to humour this irritating "Cuba" off-topic thread tangent which the Israel apologists have gleefully seized upon, but:

How come there aren't hoardes of wealthy Europeans, Canadians, Australians and Asians flocking to Cuba for vacation like the rest of the Carribean??

Do Americans not take vacations in Cuba? I know several people around here who have taken vacations in Cuba. They have resorts etc.

there are no flights to Cuba from the US. None of the American airlines are permitted to fly to Cuba, and it is difficult to get a visa. Still, with all of the wonders that come with a Carrabean climate, the Cuban travel industry still is far behind the rest of the Carribean, and not just due to a lack of American tourists.

a travel guide:
[url=http://www.lonelyplanet.com/destination ... bean/cuba/[/url]

not very much to do, the people are friendly, but so are most in the Carribean.

[Darth Wong]

Do Americans not take vacations in Cuba? I know several people around here who have taken vacations in Cuba. They have resorts etc.

Yeah, some Americans go to Cuba, although many of them aren't legally supposed to be there. The government has been cracking down on this recently.

Whoa, the American government restricts the movement of its citizens even when they're outside its borders? Are you serious?

[Admiral Valdemar]

Do Americans not take vacations in Cuba? I know several people around here who have taken vacations in Cuba. They have resorts etc.

Yeah, some Americans go to Cuba, although many of them aren't legally supposed to be there. The government has been cracking down on this recently.

Whoa, the American government restricts the movement of its citizens even when they're outside its borders? Are you serious?

I have heard that a US citizen who has visited Cuba and found out to have done by the gov't can be neglected access into the nation again. That's something I've heard so I've no idea on if it's true, but the US gov't is very serious about the whole not going to this commie nation thing.

[The Kernel]

I have heard that a US citizen who has visited Cuba and found out to have done by the gov't can be neglected access into the nation again. That's something I've heard so I've no idea on if it's true, but the US gov't is very serious about the whole not going to this commie nation thing.

I don't think this is true at all, given that US charter companies regularly fly there; they are just careful to stop in another country like Canada or Mexico first.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Do Americans not take vacations in Cuba? I know several people around here who have taken vacations in Cuba. They have resorts etc.

We have to fly to Canada or something, then find a local tourist agent and charter another trip to Cuba.

Except for a few charter and special flights, Americans are not flown to Cuba. And Bush recently made it even harder.

[Master of Ossus]

Alright, I'm finally going to split this into another topic.

Do Americans not take vacations in Cuba? I know several people around here who have taken vacations in Cuba. They have resorts etc.

Some Americans do, as do some Europeans. However, Cuba's behavior and the US trade embargo have both served to massively lower the price of vacationing in Cuba, with relation to the price of vacationing in other parts of the Carribean. This, in turn, has served to make Cuba MUCH more appealing to vacationers, especially from Europe. There are vacation packages to Cuba that are designed for middle class Europeans to go for the weekend and then fly back in time for the workweek!

[Joe]

Do Americans not take vacations in Cuba? I know several people around here who have taken vacations in Cuba. They have resorts etc.

Yeah, some Americans go to Cuba, although many of them aren't legally supposed to be there. The government has been cracking down on this recently.

Whoa, the American government restricts the movement of its citizens even when they're outside its borders? Are you serious?

No, I think it's more like they're preventing them from ever getting there in the first place.

All I remember is that a couple months ago the government announced that it would start cracking down on illegal tourism to Cuba. How they are doing this or how they plan to do it, I don't know.

[Stravo]

Bush, in the usual almost laxadasical Republican attempt to curry favor from the rabid anti Castro Cuban in Miami, (and by rabid I do mean rabid, I once saw an older Cuban lady take a Mexcian flag and tear it apart with her teeth in front of the Mexican consulate in response to the Mexican government returning a family of Cuban rafters that washed ashore in Mexico to Cuba) who like Pavlovian dogs respond to any "strengthening" of the embargo has called for tighter travel restrictions and prosecution of Americans who violate the embargo. These self same fuckers that rant about Americans supporting the Castro regime are traveling to Cuba bringing money and all other manner of "support" that they lambaste the casual American tourist for. God FORBID someone suggests restricting Cubans from traveling back and forth though.

I have seen these people come fleeing from the oppressive Cuban regime (and believe me it is repressive) yet within 6 months they're flying back with clothes and money. What sort of political refugee are you when you're flying back within months?

Frankly the Cubans have to stop this infantile view that they are entitled to special treatment. I watched my father crow about the Haitian refugess that had to be turned back and I stared at him in shock. He himself fled the communist regime back in 1960 and he's one to try and stop others from fleeing their own?

As I've grown older I simply have grown sick and tired of the pathetic double standard the Cuban community and regime have enjoyed over the years. At the same time it sickens me when people defend the Castro regime as just another benign dictatorship.

[The Kernel]

As I've grown older I simply have grown sick and tired of the pathetic double standard the Cuban community and regime have enjoyed over the years. At the same time it sickens me when people defend the Castro regime as just another benign dictatorship.

I don't think it is benign, but you have to admit that we support countries that are FAR worse in that regard (Saudi Arabia anyone?).

[The Kernel]

Talk about apologism. "Sure, he's insane. But it's our fault he's insane." Moreover, when was the LAST time anyone made a serious attempt to kill him?

I don't like the man, but he is paranoid for a reason. No I don't think that anyone might try to kill him again (at least not from the US) but it isn't outside the relm of possibility that we might sponsor another insurrection.

You gotta be shitting me. The US was on the receiving end of Pearl Harbor, and last time I checked sane Americans weren't busy safeguarding their homes from the Japanese.

But the situation hasn't changed since then with regard to Cuba has it? We are still in the same political situation that we were in at the end of the Cuban Missile Crisis.

You have yet to answer my criticism that treatment of its citizens is NOT the central reason behind the US trade embargo with Cuba, and so this whole thing is a false analogy fallacy.

Okay, so what do you think is the central reason behind it? We support worse regimes, so why is Cuba singled out?

[The Kernel]

1. "If we ignore everyone who's upset, we're only left with people who are happy."
2. So, if everyone's happy with him, how come they don't hold a free election?
3. Strangely enough, I keep hearing from leftists in the government how much US sanctions are hurting Cuban (or North Korean, Iranian, etc. etc.) people. Are you saying this isn't true? After all, only a very few people in Cuba live shitty lives, according to you.
4. Name the last Israeli who fled Israel by attempting to float a Buick.

People in Mexico lead shitty lives too. Does that mean we have a justifiable reason for a trade embargo?

[Stravo]

As I've grown older I simply have grown sick and tired of the pathetic double standard the Cuban community and regime have enjoyed over the years. At the same time it sickens me when people defend the Castro regime as just another benign dictatorship.

I don't think it is benign, but you have to admit that we support countries that are FAR worse in that regard (Saudi Arabia anyone?).

I don't think you can put dictatorships in striations of evilness or banality. I think dictatorships are inherently evil. Yes Saudi Ariabia is bad but Castro has been putting people in horrible, cramped, rat infested prisons for any sort of criticism of his regime. He has stores that cater to foreign tourists yet are forbidden to Cubans. Can you imagine stores where a tourist can go and you were forbidden to go that sells things you have never even seen?

It broke my mother's heart when she took her cousin and her kids into one of these stores and her cousin's oldest asked "What are those?" It was can of sliced pears. He had never seen pears before. That cemented for me the sheer hyposcrisy of a system that rewards those with AMERICAN dollars and doesn't allow its own citizens the freedom to know what a fucking pear is.

There's nothing benign about that at all.

[Colonel Olrik]

Cuba is a major touristical destination in the Iberian Peninsula. In Portugal, almost everybody goes to Cuba in vacations (more or less cheap exotical destination, speak spanish, which as you all know is a primitive Portuguese dialect).

[Master of Ossus]

I don't like the man, but he is paranoid for a reason. No I don't think that anyone might try to kill him again (at least not from the US) but it isn't outside the relm of possibility that we might sponsor another insurrection.

Suddenly I see why you don't give a damn that the guy is paranoid: YOU SHARE HIS PARANOIA! It's not "outside the re[a]lm of possibility that we might sponsor another insurrection?" Where did you get this? Name a congressional leader who is trying to sponsor another rebellion against Castro.

But the situation hasn't changed since then with regard to Cuba has it? We are still in the same political situation that we were in at the end of the Cuban Missile Crisis.

No. Cuba's military ability has since been VASTLY reduced. It is economically no longer important to the United States. Castro is still in power, and still has many of the same policies, but the marginalization of Cuba has been extremely effective in removing it from everyone's political radar. Realistically, that's a major political difference.

Okay, so what do you think is the central reason behind it? We support worse regimes, so why is Cuba singled out?

It's a small communist country in a region full of EXTREMELY weak central governments. The US can afford, economically and politically, to maintain an embargo of it. The US enacted similar measures to deal with countries like Nicaragua, and we still have major trade restrictions on North Korea and Vietnam, even though Vietnam has not had the sorts of massive humanitarian problems since the early 1980's that characterized, and continued to characterize, many other communist nations.

[The Kernel]

I don't think you can put dictatorships in striations of evilness or banality. I think dictatorships are inherently evil. Yes Saudi Ariabia is bad but Castro has been putting people in horrible, cramped, rat infested prisons for any sort of criticism of his regime. He has stores that cater to foreign tourists yet are forbidden to Cubans. Can you imagine stores where a tourist can go and you were forbidden to go that sells things you have never even seen?

That's the nature of an autocracy; those that speak out against the government are harshly dealt with, but if you keep your mouth shut you'll probably lead a good life. It's not much different then Iraq during the 80's; people had good schools, health care and jobs so long as they gave up their right to free speech. I don't agree with this system, but in my mind I'd much rather live in Cuba then several Democratic nations in Africa.

I DO think there are levels of harm a dictatorship can do however. Saudi Arabia is a perfect example of a monarchy that has been terrible to its people, especially compared to pre-Desert Storm Iraq. In Saudi Arabia the enormous oil fortune is locked up among the ruling elite while the rest of the population is left without jobs and a means to support themselves because the money is NOT reinvested into the public.

Iraq OTOH used much of its oil revenues to finance its school, health care and to subsidize jobs for those that didn't work in the oil industry. Was it an evil regime? Certainly, Saddam Hussain killed thousands, including his own son-in-law, but for the vast majority of the Iraqi population, life was much better then most countries at Iraq's level of industrial development.

[The Kernel]

Suddenly I see why you don't give a damn that the guy is paranoid: YOU SHARE HIS PARANOIA! It's not "outside the re[a]lm of possibility that we might sponsor another insurrection?" Where did you get this? Name a congressional leader who is trying to sponsor another rebellion against Castro.

Name a congressional leader that sponsered the Bay of Pigs. I said it isn't outside the realm of possibility, I DID NOT say it was likely.

No. Cuba's military ability has since been VASTLY reduced. It is economically no longer important to the United States. Castro is still in power, and still has many of the same policies, but the marginalization of Cuba has been extremely effective in removing it from everyone's political radar. Realistically, that's a major political difference.

Okay, but we have strived to maintain the status quo with regards to Cuba because of old conflicts. I may not like Castro, but you can't claim moral superiority while supporting regimes like Saudi Arabia and Israel.

It's a small communist country in a region full of EXTREMELY weak central governments. The US can afford, economically and politically, to maintain an embargo of it. The US enacted similar measures to deal with countries like Nicaragua, and we still have major trade restrictions on North Korea and Vietnam, even though Vietnam has not had the sorts of massive humanitarian problems since the early 1980's that characterized, and continued to characterize, many other communist nations.

But why? You said yourself that Cuba is no threat to the United States, so why the embargo? What are we trying to accomplish with it?

[The Kernel]

EDIT: BTW, you didn't spell my username right when you split and named this thread.

[Master of Ossus]

Name a congressional leader that sponsered the Bay of Pigs. I said it isn't outside the realm of possibility, I DID NOT say it was likely.

Then you admit this is just more paranoia on the part of Castro. You brought this up in an effort to justify his paranoia, and now use the circular logic that his paranoia is justified (which, pretty much, means it's not simple paranoia) by bringing up the POSSIBILITY of something inordinately unlikely happening. This doesn't strike you as being weak?

Okay, but we have strived to maintain the status quo with regards to Cuba because of old conflicts. I may not like Castro, but you can't claim moral superiority while supporting regimes like Saudi Arabia and Israel.

Nor am I. I don't agree with the US's massive support of Israel or Saudi Arabia (though, realistically, I don't think Saudi Arabia is quite as bad as it's made out to be by much of the press). However, I also think there are legitimate reasons to maintaining significant sanctions on Cuba as a result of the Castro administration's actions and socio-economic policies.

But why? You said yourself that Cuba is no threat to the United States, so why the embargo?

Cuba isn't a direct military threat to the United States. It poses a danger, however, as a communist country in our backyard. The US has come under considerable pressure, recently, regarding an insurrection in Haiti, and by removing an embargo we are risking further destabilization of the Carribean, which was the problem that the US just had to deal with.

What are we trying to accomplish with it?

The eventual removal of communism from the Carribean. While I agree that it hasn't been as effective as everyone would like, I also think that the trade embargo has harmed Cuba's ability to export communist totalitarianism to other countries in Latin America, and that it's significantly damaged Cuba's ability to pose a military threat to the US.

[Master of Ossus]

EDIT: BTW, you didn't spell my username right when you split and named this thread.

Sorry. I went ahead and edited that to correct the typo.