I never said anything about "America sucks" in this thread, and the South is more racist than the rest of the country. That is hardly a red-herring in a thread where somebody pines for the Good Old Days in Texas, moron.SancheztheWhaler wrote:What, I point out that you launched into your default America Sucks!/South is Racist! diatribe and that's a vendetta?
That "point" was you ranting about my past and my motivations rather than my argument, fucktard. That IS classic vendetta bullshit, and you're still doing it. In fact, you're starting to get into the habit of trotting out a very similar-sounding attack every time we get into an argument, and now you're acting as though my irritation with this pattern somehow means I'm "thin-skinned". If this is how you unapologetically intend to argue every time we discuss social issues in the South in future, just let me know now, so I can decide what to do about it.Until this last point I never attacked you, just your arguments, so how is that ad hominem? I guess when somebody is dead on target your skin isn't nearly as thick as it would appear. For that matter, have we ever argued about racism in America or country music before? If we have, I sure as hell don't recall it.
And again, we're back to your ridiculous belief that hanging people in trees was something we would associate with people who had been found guilty in a court of law after due process, and not at all implying lynching or summary justice.Here's your original post, so I can address it specifically and you won't accuse me of not knowing your argument:In the first place, the song is talking about one specific aspect of "back in my day," that being that criminals were dealt with swiftly and harshly. At no point in the song is there any lyric supporting a return to the social system of Texas and the deep south. There is a reference to hanging people in trees, but he's talking about criminals, not innocent black people.Darth Wong wrote:"Back in my day, son" in Texas means a lot of things, many of them racially charged.The fact is that anyone who pines for the "good old days" in the South must surely know how awful those days were for minorities, and must not have a problem with that.
Come on, when some white guy says that he wishes he were back in the good old days of the South, what do you think?
At best, he didn't give it any thought, because the issues of the horrific treatment of minorities at the time simply don't mean much to him. That's the damned problem.Did the song really need to say "round up all of those bad boys, but not innocent black people, because lynchings were bad, and hang them high in the trees" to make the point clear?
Secondly, when someone yearns for a return to the "good old days," why should we assume they want things exactly as they were in reality? Since Toby Keith himself wasn't alive in the "good old days," wouldn't it make more sense to assume that he's picturing an idealized version of the "good old days?"
To be honest, I consider all of those idealized TV shows to be a social problem. They actually help reactionary conservative types promote their bullshit. No doubt this is a devastating point to apply to people who are fond of that shit, but I'm no more of a fan of those things than I am of this song.Third, why wouldn't you assume Toby Keith's version of the "good old days" is an idealized version, such as in Leave it to Beaver, The Andy Griffith Show, or Gunsmoke (he specifically references Gunsmoke in I Should Have Been a Cowboy)?
Oh great, another attempt to butcher Occam's Razor. Normally it's the religious types who do this. But I guess you're too fucking stupid to understand how it actually works, aren't you? We're not talking about the existence of extra scientific terms here; we're talking about states of mind, one of which is no more scientifically likely than the other. That's why I am not interested in debating his state of mind; it is entirely beyond objective analysis, which you would understand if you weren't being a defensive imbecile. I'm interested in the content of the lyrics themselves.Fourth, let's apply Occam's Razor to this song. Look at the lyrics; they're simplistic, feel good, bad people will get what's coming to them macho bullshit. There's nothing overtly racist about them. The simplest assumption is that the song is nothing more than macho chest beating about criminals being dealt with swiftly and harshly. So why should we accept your convoluted argument about hidden meanings and racist undertones?
At the absolute best, it means that he stupidly failed to think of how black people might react to someone pining for the good old days when mobs hung people from trees in Texas. Which in turn means that he didn't think it was important. Do you understand that? Or are you so being defensive that you'll doggedly fight to defend this idiocy no matter how many absurd contortions you will have to twist yourself into?
What makes you think I give a shit, or that this is relevant to my argument?Fifth, are there any other Toby Keith songs that advocate or even hint at racism?
He's either a stupid flag-waving redneck or a brilliant entertainer who knows how to cynically exploit stupid flag-waving rednecks for financial gain; I think we can all agree on that. But at the end of the day, he simply didn't think to wonder or care what black people might think of this, and you know it.I'm not enough of a Toby Keith fan to know much more than his #1 hits, but I've listened to "Should've Been a Cowboy," "How Do You Like Me Now?!," "I'm Just Talkin' About Tonight," "I Wanna Talk About Me," "My List," "Courtesy of the Red, White, & Blue," "Who's Your Daddy?," "Beer for My Horses," "I Love This Bar," "American Soldier," and "As Good as I Once Was" enough to know that the general gist of Toby Keith songs is:
1. America is awesome
2. He's a redneck who likes redneck things, like hanging out in bars, fishing, and redneck girls
3. Most songs are somewhat tongue in cheek and not to be taken altogether seriously
Not giving a shit what a victimized minority thinks is the kind of thing a racist does. This sort of thing is not normally a controversial thing to say, but I guess entertainers get a few miles of extra slack, don't they?Funny thing, looking at the whole of Toby Keith's songs, I don't really see anything there that suggests racism, support for lynching, or a desire to return to the social structure of the old south. But why should we default to the simplest answer, when we can instead attribute to Toby Keith racism, support for lynching black people, and "calling out Obama for acting white?" The fact that he's done none of these things is irrelevant when compared to the fact that he's from Oklahoma, white, a redneck, and a country singer. CLEARLY, he's a racist.
