[Class War in America] Rolling Stone Calls Spade a Spade

[Civil War Man]

I would add to this debate that the sane parts of the country mandate minimum wage + tips, such as Washington State and California.

I had brought this up in previous threads where minimum wage is mentioned, but in Rhode Island restaurants are allowed to pay below minimum wage, but if there aren't enough tips to bring waitstaff income up to or above minimum wage, the restaurants are required by law to pay the difference.

May be an unusual law, but RI's known for weirdness. At least it has the foresight to realize that tips don't always come in and that a slow month or a string of assholes can be a gamebreaker for some people in terms of making ends meet.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Well, if you ever do throw a revolution, let me. I've always been a practical girl; if I found myself in the USSA tomorrow I'd ignore the banal considerations of ideology, reinvent myself with a revolutionary name and join the CHEKA and start shooting people. God knows it could only improve things no matter what you think of the country or its politics or the politics behind such a thing.

You're so fucked up. Do you need attention this badly? I mean really. Grow up, Marina.

[SWPIGWANG]

I don't think economics can be treated like engineering of medicine. Economics is not an applied science yet, despite attempts at doing so where it is at best as effective as weather engineering. There is no clearly accepted practice on the issue as the various branches simply do not agree. The inability to actually conduct free experimentation means those models will remain so, not unlike models of quantum mechanics, until an historical accident clarifies. It took the great depression to kill classical economics after all.

I think an ethical requirement would kill the study of economics by making it an arena of political warfare. Peer review has been the method of academia to sustain research, not a set of dogma of truth. Only when economics has become reliable enough so that "applied economics" is viable, should an code of professional practice be built into it.

In the greater scheme of things, the current economic "crisis" is not far from a round off error. In hindsight it might be easy to blame is systematic cause, but it came from the basic fact that people took loans that they couldn't pay, and banks gave those loans out knowing they couldn't pay. Economists have not advanced to the point where they could calculate human irrationality yet.

Despite all the complaints about the US economy, over the past half century is has done fine....on the growth sides which has, for one reason or another, the focus. To blame the economist for inequality is like blaming engineers that bombs kill people. I don't think growing disparity in income is really a secret to anyone bothering to look.

[Kanastrous]

I found myself in the USSA tomorrow I'd ignore the banal considerations of ideology, reinvent myself with a revolutionary name and join the CHEKA and start shooting people.

I find no readily apparent perspective from which the CHEKA does not appear a thoroughly despicable organization.

[Adrian Laguna]

I found myself in the USSA tomorrow I'd ignore the banal considerations of ideology, reinvent myself with a revolutionary name and join the CHEKA and start shooting people.

I find no readily apparent perspective from which the CHEKA does not appear a thoroughly despicable organization.

Try the perspective the since Chekist do the shooting, they are themselves less likely to be shot. Self-preservation is wonderful thing, ne?

[Adrian Laguna]

Try the perspective the since Chekist do the shooting, they are themselves less likely to be shot. Self-preservation is wonderful thing, ne?

This being Marina, though, she is likely more interested in trying to use her position as leverage to protect those she cares about. She's principled like that.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Well, if you ever do throw a revolution, let me. I've always been a practical girl; if I found myself in the USSA tomorrow I'd ignore the banal considerations of ideology, reinvent myself with a revolutionary name and join the CHEKA and start shooting people. God knows it could only improve things no matter what you think of the country or its politics or the politics behind such a thing.

You're so fucked up. Do you need attention this badly? I mean really. Grow up, Marina.

Jesus christ, you never can take a lark, can you? The idea of an actual violent revolution in America is fucking hilarious; "USSA" is the title of a novel from the 80's which I used mostly to convey the over-the-top sense I got from the idea. Do you ALWAYS have to walk around with a toilet plunger stuck up your ass, IP? Or can you maybe laugh sometimes and then read the part of the post which actually matters?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I found myself in the USSA tomorrow I'd ignore the banal considerations of ideology, reinvent myself with a revolutionary name and join the CHEKA and start shooting people.

I find no readily apparent perspective from which the CHEKA does not appear a thoroughly despicable organization.

What the fucking shit is wrong with people these days? If you took valium, you might be able to tell when something is said in earnest and when it is said in response to inanity as a matter of lightness and humour before moving on to the subject at hand. I didn't notice anyone freaking out about Glocksman boasting that he could arm a platoon and demanding to know why he was such an inhuman savage as to prepare for civil war in America. Oh right, maybe this is just because people like breaking the No Vendettas rule.

[Glocksman]

Jesus christ, you never can take a lark, can you? The idea of an actual violent revolution in America is fucking hilarious; "USSA" is the title of a novel from the 80's which I used mostly to convey the over-the-top sense I got from the idea.

I've read some of those books and short stories.
That said, IMHO they're obscure enough to give Kanastrous the benefit of the doubt on the issue.

Want to know more?
Read Back in the USSA.

My union's BA loved the book, but as he told me 'I may be a socialist, but I'm not stupid' when I asked him if he would vote for Gore in 2000.

[Aaron]

What the fucking shit is wrong with people these days? If you took valium, you might be able to tell when something is said in earnest and when it is said in response to inanity as a matter of lightness and humour before moving on to the subject at hand. I didn't notice anyone freaking out about Glocksman boasting that he could arm a platoon and demanding to know why he was such an inhuman savage as to prepare for civil war in America. Oh right, maybe this is just because people like breaking the No Vendettas rule.

Maybe it's the lack of emoticons that usually mark a post as sarcasm or humor. I have a hard time telling if you are serious or not because of this. I imagine your past positions have a lot to do with this as well, this being a message board it's hard to tell humor from a regular post.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Don't make jokes about political purging which require multiple Google-searches to realize. Why? Because mass political murder...isn't that funny.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Maybe it's the lack of emoticons that usually mark a post as sarcasm or humor. I have a hard time telling if you are serious or not because of this. I imagine your past positions have a lot to do with this as well, this being a message board it's hard to tell humor from a regular post.

I think it's more the fact that people here simply want to assume the worst about me, whereas almost anywhere else that would simply be assumed to be a flippant counterpoint to all the chary-eyed talk, not a serious, cold-hearted declaration of my ability to engage in mass political murder. I do not think it is inappropriate as a way to discuss a revolution which would kill millions, either (precisely because the concept has already been made light of simply by being mentioned).

[Broomstick]

On the other hand, adding [/joking] to the end of the post just to make it absolutely clear that's what you're doing probably wouldn't hurt.

[Kanastrous]

I found myself in the USSA tomorrow I'd ignore the banal considerations of ideology, reinvent myself with a revolutionary name and join the CHEKA and start shooting people.

I find no readily apparent perspective from which the CHEKA does not appear a thoroughly despicable organization.

What the fucking shit is wrong with people these days? If you took valium, you might be able to tell when something is said in earnest and when it is said in response to inanity as a matter of lightness and humour before moving on to the subject at hand. I didn't notice anyone freaking out about Glocksman boasting that he could arm a platoon and demanding to know why he was such an inhuman savage as to prepare for civil war in America. Oh right, maybe this is just because people like breaking the No Vendettas rule.

I'm not engaged in a vendetta.

I've been jumped on for jocular posts that weren't properly interpreted, and taken seriously.

If you were joking, okay, fine by me.

[Darth Wong]

I don't think economics can be treated like engineering of medicine. Economics is not an applied science yet, despite attempts at doing so where it is at best as effective as weather engineering.

There is a difference between saying you can control the economy and ruling on whether it's responsible to go on TV and say "if you do X, then Y will happen" during a political campaign.

[Broomstick]

A comparison might be made with psychology - a definite "soft" science that nonetheless has licensing standards, ethics, and violators can be disciplined for harming their clients.

Of course there are differences between engineering, economics, and a lot of other things, but being different doesn't excuse you from morals.

[Darth Wong]

Uh, debt can finance your investments in yourself and future, so can return personal net gains in a way within a reasonable standard of control. Taxes do not.

Taxes can potentially pay for social program spending and infrastructure investment which might make your life a hell of a lot easier in future. That can have just as much of a net positive effect as a personal investment.

You can control the intelligence of your own investment decisions.

Yes, I can. And at the risk of tooting my own horn, I'm a fairly clever guy. That cannot, however, be said of the majority of the population. The fact that your own intelligence dictates your investment decisions is a point in favour for a guy like me, and a huge point against for most of the population, more than half of which is too stupid to even pay their credit card bills despite the sky-high interest rates being charged by Visa et al.

[Broomstick]

The point to remember is that a lot of average people make a lot of very poor decisions every day - they smoke, they drink too much, they eat crappy food, they don't exercise, they talk on a cellphone while driving...

If such people were handed their social security money (as just one example) and told to control their own destiny what makes you think they would handle that decision better than any other?

One of the ideas behind social security was that it would be a fall back even for those who made bad decisions. You weren't supposed to live in luxury off it (you want that, you have to earn that) but it was supposed to keep old people from being homeless and starving.

[aerius]

Fun fact. In a bear market only 5% of investors can break even, and just 1% of investors can actually turn a profit. That means 95% of all investors are getting raped with no lube. The market works in roughly 10 year cycles on a historical basis, so between the time you start working and getting an income to the time you retire you'll hit 3-5 bear markets. That's going to work wonders for the retirement fund, especially if your retirement happens to coincide with a market downturn. As if there isn't enough disparity already between rich & poor in the US, those one percenters make a killing and retire large while the rest get to squeal like Ned Beatty in Deliverance.

People really are too damn stupid to handle their own social security investments. I'm sure we all like to think we're smart enough to be in the select group that can turn a long term profit in investments, but in reality it ain't happening. Well over 90% of us on this board will be getting plungered in both holes.

[Darth Wong]

Technically speaking, there's no way that over 90% of us actually have two sexual orifices, unless you're counting the mouth. In any case, I've heard similar stories about the success of investors. That's why most people go for mutual funds, in which case you get the indescribable joy of being ass-raped by the fund manager, who quotes you impressive-looking fund growth figures while not mentioning the fact that he skims hefty loading and management fees off this growth.

[aerius]

Yeah, I remember when I started my RRSP the bank was pushing mutual funds on me. They quoted 10% annual growth and pulled out charts claiming that if I contributed $100 a month I'd be a millionaire several times over by the time I retired. I asked them "can't the funds lose money?" and they went "ummm...errrr....well...it's possible but..." and piled on the bullshit on why they always go up. Those funds are down 30% this year alone, I should go back and bug my bank's mutual fund pushers someday soon.

Could be worse though, the investment manager at my friend's bank didn't know what an index fund is. Duh...you can get a fund that tracks the TSX Comp or DOW 30? I didn't know that! Those are the monkeys handling our money, it's not a reassuring thought.

[Darth Wong]

Could be worse though, the investment manager at my friend's bank didn't know what an index fund is. Duh...you can get a fund that tracks the TSX Comp or DOW 30? I didn't know that! Those are the monkeys handling our money, it's not a reassuring thought.

The funny thing about being a "financial advisor" is that any monkey can do it. There is no serious academic requirement for the title of "financial advisor".

Mind you, even qualified people can lose shitloads of money. Rebecca actually had a former in-law relation who serves as an example. He had business and accounting degrees and started a successful computer business which he parlayed into a multi million dollar operation.

In order to expand his own personal wealth, he would quietly borrow money from the company treasury, invest it, and then return the money. He used money to make money, and since he paid it back, no one was the wiser. Leveraged investing: the tactic of geniuses! This worked very well ... for a while. But you know what they say about gambling: once you get hooked, you can't stop until you're broke. And that's what happened to him: he made a lot of money doing this, so he did it again. And again. Bigger cars, nicer houses, it's a party that never ends!

Inevitably, he made a bad investment and lost money, so he couldn't return the funds to the company treasurey. Bingo, he was now an embezzler (well, he was always an embezzler, but now he was going to get caught). What's the solution? Why of course, borrow again, win big, and pay back the treasury! Only it didn't work. Again. By the time he was finished, the difference between what he had taken and what he had paid back was more than $8 million, so he started swindling his friends and partners for more money so he could keep trying to dig himself out of the hole. Long story short, he's in prison now.

[Big Orange]

I'm looking forward to an episode of Channel 4's Dispatches called How the Banks Never Lose. Most likely they never lose through corporate welfare and get bailed out like Northern Rock did, despite failing in it's duties and losing the public's money.

Ah well, in some ways I'm mildly glad that big business are making the middle class (like my family) in the US and UK suffer so much with legal impunity, since this will properly discredit Neoliberalism as an ideology and we could reverse all the senseless deregulations that are misrunning too many things for the ends of too few.

In Latin America, many countries have appointed more Leftwing governments (even retro Commies like Hugo) because they have grown fed up with being thrown under the wheels of the so-called free market economy.