Gun sales jump following election

[Kamakazie Sith]

Well if you don't have lots of crime coming from guns in Utah then I don't see a problem, you kind of sound like you think gun control is an end unto itself there, or maybe I am misunderstanding you?

We have enough gun crime. It's probably our population that limits it compared to other states like California. If we had the population of CA then this place would be a war zone. Enforced gun control is a measure that should be taken...lip service doesn't produce results.

I really doubt people would accept gun registration though. I mean California did this in the 90s when they where outlawing some gun types(rifles, SKS's I think), they made commercials on TV and everything saying that people should register their guns for an amnesty from the ban, afterwards they want back on it and forced the people who had registered their guns to turn them in without compensation. Thats something thats gonna get out and trotted around if such a law proposal was made.

Well, that might be true thanks to dishonest government actions. If that won't work then at the very least your solution should be implemented.

[Lusankya]

The gun buyback in Australia wasn't related to gun registration - it was related to the fact that we'd just had the biggest random gun massacre (in terms of fatalities) ever. It still is the biggest. Since it was such a large massacre, and occured in relative isolation compared to school shootings in America, there was little doubt that increased gun control would follow. For some reason there aren't a significant number of people in Australia who respond to incidents like this with "clearly that happened because there weren't enough guns there."

Also, the gun owners were paid for the guns they brought in. So if they wanted, they could just go out and buy a new non-semi-automatic gun with the money they got for their old gun. Most of the people who were complaining were farmers, and it's not particularly difficult for them to get guns - all they need to do is show that they have somewhere to go out and shoot rabbits (hint: this is easy if you own a farm).

[His Divine Shadow]

One of the little-publicized facts about armed criminals in Canada and Mexico is that the dealers are armed almost exclusively with US weapons that are smuggled across the border. It's one thing for America to have looser gun control laws than Canada, but it's quite another to have such a lax attitude toward enforcement that authorities look the way other way while gun manufacturers, wholesalers, and retailers can't account for where millions of dollars of guns end up being sold. It's a big "nudge nudge wink wink" affair; the gun sellers know perfectly well that they sell huge volumes of guns to criminals, and the authorities do nothing about it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01654.html

That's exactly the bullshit I'm talking about. This probably does sound a bit extreme, but I do support the death penalty for people who play a direct role in the smuggling of weapons in and from the United States. Though I have a sneaking suspicion that this is also possible due to corrupt law enforcement in the border regions. Which is again why I support the death penalty for these crimes...you need to make the punishment not worth the benefits.

Kinda of Off Topic, but some of the latest intel on corrupt Mexican police is pretty scary. There is a report of drug cartels members that have been trained by Mexican police/military on how to ambush. They were going to try it on a DEA team in a New Mexico neighborhood, but the DEA team got wind of it and abandoned the mission. They were going to ambush that team with AK-47s in a neighborhood.

This is a serious problem that the public doesn't really have a clue about.

This kind of stuff though is a direct result of the war on drugs. The US Govt. created these powerful organisations through their hardcore anti-drug policies, now they and unfortunately, everyone else, are reaping what they sow. The cartels are just getting richer and richer and more powerfull all the time.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I've heard that China has been smuggling selling AKs and such straight to the black market in the US by the shipload. Any truth to that?

I haven't heard anything, but it's certainly plausible.

[His Divine Shadow]

I did find a newstory that mentions 2000 AK-47s being smuggled into california, story mentions claims that the chinese govt knew of it anyway:
http://www.iht.com/articles/1996/05/24/arms.t.php

[Yogi]

OK,perhaps I missed it but where is the evidence that gun owners are statistically more responsible and law abiding people? Is there a reference somewhere?

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Nitram, time will tell. Firearms laws got much more onerous under Clinton, then eased with Bush and the Republicans.

Democrats since 1968 have been notoriously, and provably, against private firearms ownership in the US. With an Illinois Democrat elected to the White House, and a Democrat controlled Congress, further actions against so-called "gun rights" are virtually guaranteed.

Frankly, the Obama administration is going to have better things to do than push gun bans. The Democrat-controlled Congress will have better things to do than to pass one to Obama's desk. And the Democrats in the low and middle levels of the party aren't the same kind of Democrat that was at those levels in the Clinton era. Yes, the Democratic leadership is left-leaning and progressive, but the low and middle levels of the party have more disaffected conservatives in them than they did at the start of the Bush administration. And the Democrats don't have a filibuster-proof supermajority in either legislative house either. Finally, the SCOTUS justices Obama could possibly appoint will likely be replacing liberals, so there won't be any change there. Economy, energy, and health care have gone from talking points to major concerns requiring attention right fucking now. Compared to those, making the gun ownership lobby howl comes in pretty far down on the list of priorities. Somewhere just ahead of declaring war on Iran.

[Glocksman]

I really don't know where to start with that WaPo article, but I guess this quote is as good as any.

Alvarado crumpled at the wheel of his sedan, yet another victim of the weapons known here as "goat's horns" because of their curved ammunition clips, and which can fire at a rate of 600 rounds per minute.

Six rounds per second.
That's full auto fire, not semi auto fire.

If the Mexican police are saying full auto AK's are being bought legally in the US and smuggled into Mexico, they're full of shit.
A legal full auto AK is subject to the NFA and as such is both registered with the BATF and there are stringent requirements that have to be met by both the seller and buyer before the gun can be sold.

Also, due to quirks in US gun laws, a civilian transferable AK in the US is worth a hell of a lot more (because the supply has been a fixed number since 1986, transferable full auto AK's are helluva expensive) in the US than it would be in Mexico.
If Mexican drug lords are using full auto weapons, they are not US 'civilian legal' full autos being smuggled into Mexico.
My guess is that they're coming in from Central America (awash with weapons since the 1980's) or from overseas and are ones stolen from Mexican police and military armories.

The arms traffickers have left Mexico awash in AK-47s, pistols, telescope sighting devices, grenades, grenade launchers and high-powered ammunition, such as the so-called cop-killer bullets believed to be able to penetrate bulletproof vests

More bullshit.
Anyone who knows the first thing about US gun laws knows that:

a) so called 'cop-killer' bullets have been illegal in the USA since the 1980's and you can't buy them at a gun show.
b) the only 'grenades' you can buy without paying a $200 per grenade NFA destructive device tax on (along with an extensive background check) at gunshows are either 37mm flares or inert 'dummy grenades' which are just hollow iron shells.
c) does anyone really believe the Mexican drug cartels are firing flares (as others have pointed out, the only 'grenade lanuchers' you can buy at a gun show only fire flares) at the police??

Mexico does have a problem with US weapons entering the country, but that problem isn't AK's and grenades.
It's handguns.
Note that the one weapon mentioned in the article that was proven to have been bought in the US was a handgun.
The Mexicans may have a legitimate beef about US handguns, but the rest of that article is sensationalist bullshit worthy of the Weekly World News and not a respected newspaper.

[Darth Wong]

So ... you nitpicked the article's descriptions of weapon characteristics, and act as if this refutes its claims about large-scale weapons smuggling? Are you serious? Is this your idea of a logical rebuttal? Do you honestly think that the drug cartels are paying millions of dollars to bribe Mexican customs officials just so they can bring in the occasional handgun?

[Broomstick]

Making guns childproof sounds like code for: guns must be stored disassembled, in a multiple locked cases, with ammunition stored in a locked case separate from the ones the gun is stored in.

But, in reality, more often it means trigger locks.

You know, storing guns disassembled, storing ammunition separately, and so forth really does make it less likely for children and firearms to mix in a bad way. It can also decrease the utility of guns for home defense, too. But I'm not buying into this "WAUGH! A Democrat got elected! They're coming to take all our guns away!" bullshit.

[Glocksman]

So ... you nitpicked the article's descriptions of weapon characteristics, and act as if this refutes its claims about large-scale weapons smuggling? Are you serious?

I'm saying the claims of large scale full auto weapon and grenade smuggling from the US via gun show purchases are bullshit.
The Mexicans have had a large problem with US handguns, shotguns, and rifles being smuggled in for decades.

All the sensationalist bullshit about AK's, grenades and 'cop killer' bullets does is obscure what the real problem WRT US weapons being smuggled in involves.

[Broomstick]

There is a lot of things we would love to do, however, when certain entertainment is a huge harm and risk towards the public, it should not be tolerated.

Or perhaps regulated. My hobby of flying airplanes certainly has the potential to cause harm to the public outside of those directly involved, that's why we have rules regarding aviation, not only how to fly safely but also regarding who can and can not legally fly airplanes and penalties up to and including serious jail time (even death for one particular category of violation) if you fuck up or refuse to obey the rules.

Likewise, most gun owners understand the need for some regulations and rules. Guns are serious stuff. They are dangerous if mishandled.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that the purpose of a gun is to kill someone?

Actually, Ray, for a substantial number of my neighbors the primary purpose of a gun is to put meat on the table. Seriously. Hunting is quite common around here, particularly this time of year. That doesn't mean our woods are full of yahoos running around shooting things indiscriminately. The vast majority of our local hunters obey the law, handle their guns safely, only shoot game in season, pay for their hunting permits and taxes on various items, and even manage to do it all while sober (serious hunters, the type actually using hunting to feed their families, tend to be sober while actually hunting because you shoot a hell of a lot better when you aren't drunk). The same stores that sell guns in my area also sell archery equipment intended for hunting because a lot of the guys who shoot deer or birds during the firearm season also hunt them during the bow season. (Yes, we have separate seasons depending on the weapon used). When I was in one of the local gun shops a couple weeks ago the owner said he was seeing an uptick in people buying in order to go hunting because the economy was such shit. Some people who haven't hunted in years are getting back into it, getting their guns out of storage, buying ammo, and so forth.

So no, for a lot of gun owners in the US shooting other people is the last thing they want to do. Even if only an accident, the police will confiscate the weapon while investigating what happened. A good hunting rifle is a significant investment and a tool to help feed your family. You don't want to lose that. You don't want it stolen, either, or broken, or otherwise taken out of use.

The primary purpose of a weapon is to be a weapon? If you like to shoot something that much, why can't you use a BB gun or even a airsoft gun instead?

Because those aren't an effective means to kill an animal as large as a deer. All you will do is piss the deer off, and pissed off deer are big enough to be dangerous to humans.

Why can't you go to the arcade and simulate shooting for all you want?

Simulated shooting does not result in venison or roast duck on your table.

[Darth Wong]

So ... you nitpicked the article's descriptions of weapon characteristics, and act as if this refutes its claims about large-scale weapons smuggling? Are you serious?

I'm saying the claims of large scale full auto weapon and grenade smuggling from the US via gun show purchases are bullshit.
The Mexicans have had a large problem with US handguns, shotguns, and rifles being smuggled in for decades.

All the sensationalist bullshit about AK's, grenades and 'cop killer' bullets does is obscure what the real problem WRT US weapons being smuggled in involves.

Oh right, as if the point of the article was the exact type of weapons being smuggled.

[Glocksman]

But I'm not buying into this "WAUGH! A Democrat got elected! They're coming to take all our guns away!" bullshit.

I'd by lying if I said I wasn't concerned about the possibility of a new AWB, but given the makeup of Congress even with a Democratic majority* in both houses, I don't believe a ban would pass without Obama spending major capital to do so.
Considering the huge shit sandwich Bush is handing him, I think a gun ban rates pretty low right now on his list of things to do.

*'Democrat' isn't automatically 'anti gun'. One time NRA board member Congressman John Dingell (D-MI) is an example.

[Broomstick]

You know, if you limited the sale of firearms to the government, the supply of arms in the black market would eventually dry up.

Guns HAVE to come from some legal source, either bought or stolen, before they could enter the criminal world.

Or made in someone's basement... I know someone whose hobby is making guns, which he does in his own home. Gunsmithing isn't rocket science. If firearms become difficult to obtain there's really nothing to stop bad guys from making their own. It's just in today's world it's more convenient to buy or steal them.

(For that matter, I know people who build rockets as a hobby, too - it's amazing what folks do in their spare time.

[Darth Wong]

Canada has far stricter gun control than the US, and they still haven't come to take away everyone's guns. The NRA deliberately fuels paranoid hysteria among its members.

[Ryan Thunder]

To whoever said it, yes, cars kill more people than assault rifles. Cars also just happen to not be designed to be killing machines, so your argument falls flat on its face.

The real issue at heart is addressing what is the assumed use of a firearm. Clearly, people who are pro-gun assume the weapons are there partially for recreation (targets, hunting, display) and partially for defense--and usually not the same guns for both tasks. Someone may want to keep the AK they got from their brother who was overseas, but also have the pistol they got a concealed-carry permit for.

And if you're anti-gun, you see them as frivolous, messy killing machines that no sane person should own and which clearly must either be used strictly for shooting at animals, or carried by a paranoid, dangerously trigger-happy individual shortly before being stolen from his home and ending up in the hands of a street gang.[...]

I'm certainly not in the second crowd, though I do take issue with instruments that have been designed with the express purpose of causing as much death and destruction as possible in the hands of civilians.

If all you're going to do is shoot targets with it, then fucking rent a gun. If you're going to go hunting with it, you're a pussy. Real people don't need the cutting edge of military hardware to kill an unarmed and unarmoured animal. If you want a weapon for self-defense, a pistol will meet your needs adequately without giving you a totally unnecessary 150 m kill radius.

As a general rule, I believe that it is excessive for you to own heavier equipment than what the average cop on the street is packing without a damned good reason. Fuck statistics; I don't want my next door neighbour to have the capability to project military firepower into the neighbourhood sitting in his basement, and that has absolutely shit all to do with their psychological state.

[Shroom Man 777]

Likewise, most gun owners understand the need for some regulations and rules. Guns are serious stuff. They are dangerous if mishandled.

Exactly. Guns are weapons. They're not recreational objects like volleyballs or vibrators, and they're not means of transportations like cars or airplanes or dirigibles, they're not kitchen utensils like knives. They're first and foremost weapons designed to inflict lethal force on living things in order to kill them. If procuring a weapon is easier than procuring a car, then something's wrong.

[Glocksman]

So ... you nitpicked the article's descriptions of weapon characteristics, and act as if this refutes its claims about large-scale weapons smuggling? Are you serious?

I'm saying the claims of large scale full auto weapon and grenade smuggling from the US via gun show purchases are bullshit.
The Mexicans have had a large problem with US handguns, shotguns, and rifles being smuggled in for decades.

All the sensationalist bullshit about AK's, grenades and 'cop killer' bullets does is obscure what the real problem WRT US weapons being smuggled in involves.

Oh right, as if the point of the article was the exact type of weapons being smuggled.

Then why were full autos, 'cop killer' bullets, and grenades prominently featured when the weapons being smuggled via legal US purchase aren't any of the above?

I'm not denying Mexico has a large problem with US weapons being smuggled in, but I am saying that the article prominently featured sensationalist bullshit while underplaying what the real problem is.

That real problem is handguns, non NFA regulated standard rifle types, and shotguns.
Not full auto AK's or grenades, but your garden variety .38 revolver, 9mm handgun, 12ga shotgun, or semi auto AR clone.

All the sensationalist bullshit about grenades and full autos does is make those who know US gun laws doubt the accuracy of the entire article.
That's a shame because other than the BS about full autos and grenades, the article is accurate to my knowledge.

[Broomstick]

Ban bullets then, sooner or later, those guns will be useless without any bullets in society. With bullets being extremely rare, the use of guns will drop.

Bullet are even easier to make than guns. Lots of gun owners in the US already made their own ammunition.

Ray, I realize you come from a VERY different culture than the US. I understand that it is difficult to wrap your head around someplace as alien as the US. But really, firearms are so common, and the know-how to make guns and ammunition so common, and the tools to make them so common, that there would be no way to eliminate an underground industry if guns were banned tomorrow.

[Darth Wong]

Oh right, as if the point of the article was the exact type of weapons being smuggled.

Then why were full autos, 'cop killer' bullets, and grenades prominently featured when the weapons being smuggled via legal US purchase aren't any of the above?

I wasn't aware that "mentioned in the article" means "prominently featured" or "main point of the article". Can you honestly not see that you are just nitpicking? The entire article is not "sensationalist bullshit" just because they got their weapons terminology wrong. Reporters get that wrong all the time; it's not their primary interest.

[Glocksman]

Canada has far stricter gun control than the US, and they still haven't come to take away everyone's guns. The NRA deliberately fuels paranoid hysteria among its members.

You're right, and that's why I let my NRA membership lapse.
The NRA is like the boy who cried 'wolf' one too many times in that when I get their mailings about the latest gun banner, I just say 'meh' and throw it away.

[Glocksman]

Oh right, as if the point of the article was the exact type of weapons being smuggled.

Then why were full autos, 'cop killer' bullets, and grenades prominently featured when the weapons being smuggled via legal US purchase aren't any of the above?

I wasn't aware that "mentioned in the article" means "prominently featured" or "main point of the article". Can you honestly not see that you are just nitpicking? The entire article is not "sensationalist bullshit" just because they got their weapons terminology wrong. Reporters get that wrong all the time; it's not their primary interest.

True.
I'm just 'gun shy' because I remember back during the 1993-94 debate over the AWB, I saw a lot of news pieces discussing it while showing clips of guys firing full auto Uzis, thus implying that an AWB would affect full auto sales (it didn't).

Hence my interest in seeing that people be aware that there is a difference between full auto weapons and semi auto weapons and being aware that you just can't walk into a gunshow and walk out with a legally purchased full auto AK and a sack of grenades.

[Kitsune]

Jim Webb is another good example of an NRA member who is also a democrat.

I too am concerned about a new AWB but hoping that there are enough present democrats who will not support such legislation. Also, I seem to remember in 2000 that McCain was talking about gun control himself.

I work myself in the private security industry and consider my pistol to be a tool which I need to work. Yes, I am a supervisor and one item Virgina does have over most states is a semi-stringent security program. I do have to practice every couple of months or so to keep my shooting skills up. I cannot afford $500.00 ammunition.

This past year, I loaned another officer my backup weapon (basically I did not carry both but had a second weapon in case my primary weapon breaks) and the person drew the weapon on a tow truck driver. That weapon is now gone. The court battle would have cost more than it was worth. I am out around $500.00. The person promised to pay me back but have not seen it yet.....

[Darth Wong]

True.
I'm just 'gun shy' because I remember back during the 1993-94 debate over the AWB, I saw a lot of news pieces discussing it while showing clips of guys firing full auto Uzis, thus implying that an AWB would affect full auto sales (it didn't).

Hence my interest in seeing that people be aware that there is a difference between full auto weapons and semi auto weapons and being aware that you just can't walk into a gunshow and walk out with a legally purchased full auto AK and a sack of grenades.

I understand where you're coming from, but like it or not, reporters generally don't care about being accurate with their terminology. That attitude extends far beyond guns.

As an aside, I found out that the cost of taking the mandatory firearms safety course here in Toronto (including the exam and test fee) is only $160. I had been led to believe by our own domestic pro-gun forces that it was some horrible onerous procedure, and it turns out that it's just a 10 hour safety course and a written exam, to show that I understand how to safely use and store a firearm. I've often toyed with the idea of learning how to shoot a rifle accurately, but then I'd have to pony up the money for the rifle, and bullets, and range time, and make time in my schedule ...