Obama to Seek New Assault Weapons Ban

[Alyeska]

It was my understanding that the majority of weapons smuggled across the boarder from the US into Mexico are in fact pistols. The images of assault rifles are media creations to give the story more pizazz.

[Akkleptos]

I'd really like to know exactly what kinds of guns are, indeed, being smuggled into Mexico from the US. I see pictures on the news of M-16 and AK-47 look-alikes, but I also see video of weapons being fired on full-automatic. That leads me to believe one of three things:

These were legal 'assault-style' rifles that were illegally (and dangerously) converted to full-auto.
These were full-auto capable weapons stolen from military or police stores.
These were full-auto weapons smuggled in from a third country because it is easy to cross the US/Mexico border.

I'm betting it's any combination of the three possibilities. The term "black market" also comes to mind. As to what kind of weapons exactly are being smuggled, see an example further below.

It was my understanding that the majority of weapons smuggled across the boarder from the US into Mexico are in fact pistols. The images of assault rifles are media creations to give the story more pizazz.

For nice media creations:

The latest record-seizure of weapons in Mexico is indicative of what law enforcement officials confront in the field and why they are often outgunned, and a powerful reminder of why the U.S. has to put a stop to the traffic of weapons into Mexico. Last November, in Reynosa, Tamaulipas, Mexican authorities seized in a single shipment of 500,000 rounds of ammunition, 288 assault rifles, 14 Herstal semi-automatic pistols, 7 Barrett .50 caliber sniper rifles, 2 grenade launchers, 1 LAW rocket launcher, and 287 fragmentation grenades. This cache of arms adds to the staggering total so far seized during President Calderón’s first two years in office: 30,231 weapons (16,401 of which were assault weapons), more than 3.5 million rounds of ammunition, and 2,196 grenades.

(emphasis mine) And that was only one shipment that was deected and seized.
And this other account:

Back in Phoenix, Newell is in a walk-in vault loaded with weapons seized 120 miles north of the border. The vault is filled with hundreds of rifles in wall racks, handguns in stacks and semi-automatics wrapped with plastic ties to prevent their firing. This is just one of a number of ATF vaults in Arizona filled with weapons that will be destroyed and then replaced with newly seized weapons. Newell points to a trash can filled with AK-47 knockoffs.

"These guns were actually seized in Phoenix from some traffickers that were going to take them to Mexico," he says. "Actually this case was one of about 30."

The fun bit is that the US would not be expected to do anything exceedingly difficult, other than enforcing relevant laws that are already there:

In the face of this flood of weapons, there is much that the United States can do to help Mexico roll back drug syndicates. For example, enforcing existent legislation, such as the Arms Export Control Act, would effectively criminalize the sale of weapons to individuals whose intent is to export these firearms to countries such as Mexico where they are illegal. Furthermore, a return to the import ban on assault weapons in accordance with the 1968 Gun Control Act would prohibit the importation of such weapons unless they are used for sporting purposes, while the passage of a bill to regulate .50 mm caliber firearms under the National Firearms Act would go a long way in helping to reduce the number of assault weapons flowing into Mexico.

[Glocksman]

As one familiar with US gun laws and their implementation, let me 'shoot this one down'.

Furthermore, a return to the import ban on assault weapons in accordance with the 1968 Gun Control Act would prohibit the importation of such weapons unless they are used for sporting purposes, while the passage of a bill to regulate .50 mm caliber firearms under the National Firearms Act would go a long way in helping to reduce the number of assault weapons flowing into Mexico.

The import ban imposed by Bush 41 using the GCA '68 has never been lifted.
It is still in effect today, and in fact was toughened up by Bush the Lesser.

In fact, this bullshit ban is why I can't buy a new genuine IMI semi auto Uzi today that was perfectly legal for me to purchase back in 1988.


There are no '.50mm caliber firearms' in existence.
Undoubtedly this is a reference to '50 BMG caliber' firearms, which have a 1/2 inch bore diameter and not a 1/2 millimeter bore diameter and originally were used in the World War 1 era Browning heavy machine gun.

That said, .50 BMG caliber weapons are the farthest thing from an 'assault weapon' that you can imagine in that they fire a very heavily recoiling cartridge in a weapon that is extremely heavy and incapable of rapid fire from the hip unless you are larger than the Incredible Hulk.

2 grenade launchers, 1 LAW rocket launcher, and 287 fragmentation grenades.

Given the fact that all of the above are heavily regulated under the 1934 NFA, I call bullshit.
If the Mexican drug gangs do have genuine live LAW rocket launchers, I'll bet what's left of my 401(k) that they didn't get them from legal purchasers in the USA.
In fact, I'll go further and bet that if the 'grenade launchers' are genuine 40mm US grenade launchers, they didn't come from legitimate US owners, as such weapons are subject to even tighter regulations than civilian machine guns are in the USA.
The grenade bit is transparently bullshit, as explosive grenades can be legally purchased in the US, but each one is subject to the same laws genuine machine guns are.

Of course if you can provide proof that all of the above were stolen from their legitimate US civilian purchasers or illegally sold by said owners (in a pattern proving collusion of course), I'll retract my bullshit claim.

[Glocksman]

In other words, the Mexican Ambassador is either ignorant of US firearm laws or is fucking lying.

Take your pick.

FWIW, I'm certainly willing to work out reasonable compromises WRT US gun laws if our southern neighbors are willing to do the same regarding their citizens illegally fleeing northward.

If they aren't willing to work with us, then to be honest why should I be willing to work with them?

[Phantasee]

Sounds to me like that stuff was stolen from some armoury or depot, and then smuggled across (or tried to). I wouldn't believe it is a representative case, though. The heavy weapons in that shipment probably got it put on a higher priority (or just increased the chances of getting caught). It's not like the Army wouldn't do everything it can to track down some of that stuff.

The shipments of Colt .45s probably slip by with much less notice, I would think.

[His Divine Shadow]

I wonder if Norinco is still in the smuggling business... They where happy to smuggle into the US until they got caught, whats gonna stop them from selling to countries like Mexico or further south where the governments pretty much have no ability to stop or even detect such shipments.

[Glocksman]

Sounds to me like that stuff was stolen from some armoury or depot, and then smuggled across (or tried to). I wouldn't believe it is a representative case, though. The heavy weapons in that shipment probably got it put on a higher priority (or just increased the chances of getting caught). It's not like the Army wouldn't do everything it can to track down some of that stuff.

The shipments of Colt .45s probably slip by with much less notice, I would think.

True.
Most pistol shipments would have a US citizen shrugging his shoulders while a smuggled LAW launcher or fragmentation grenade would have the same citizen wondering 'what the fuck?'.

IOW, while large scale smuggling of machine guns and of what US law defines as 'destructive devices' is possible, I doubt if the sources are legitimate US weapon owners.

[Glocksman]

I wonder if Norinco is still in the smuggling business... They where happy to smuggle into the US until they got caught, whats gonna stop them from selling to countries like Mexico or further south where the governments pretty much have no ability to stop or even detect such shipments.

If NORINCO hadn't got greedy and Bush the Greater hadn't appointed that dripping asshole Bill Bennett to be 'Drug Czar', they'd be making more money from legitimate sales of legal semi-autos to US citizens at $300+ each than they would from selling illegal full autos at a price necessary to compete with the flood of weapons sent into Central America back during the 1980's and 90's.

[Phantasee]

Heh, Norincos are illegal in the US? My dad has one of their 1911 .45s. I suppose it'd be illegal for him to bring it with him if (hypothetically) he moved to the US?

[Alyeska]

I'd really like to know exactly what kinds of guns are, indeed, being smuggled into Mexico from the US. I see pictures on the news of M-16 and AK-47 look-alikes, but I also see video of weapons being fired on full-automatic. That leads me to believe one of three things:

These were legal 'assault-style' rifles that were illegally (and dangerously) converted to full-auto.
These were full-auto capable weapons stolen from military or police stores.
These were full-auto weapons smuggled in from a third country because it is easy to cross the US/Mexico border.

I'm betting it's any combination of the three possibilities. The term "black market" also comes to mind. As to what kind of weapons exactly are being smuggled, see an example further below.

It was my understanding that the majority of weapons smuggled across the boarder from the US into Mexico are in fact pistols. The images of assault rifles are media creations to give the story more pizazz.

For nice media creations:

The latest record-seizure of weapons in Mexico is indicative of what law enforcement officials confront in the field and why they are often outgunned, and a powerful reminder of why the U.S. has to put a stop to the traffic of weapons into Mexico. Last November, in Reynosa, Tamaulipas, Mexican authorities seized in a single shipment of 500,000 rounds of ammunition, 288 assault rifles, 14 Herstal semi-automatic pistols, 7 Barrett .50 caliber sniper rifles, 2 grenade launchers, 1 LAW rocket launcher, and 287 fragmentation grenades. This cache of arms adds to the staggering total so far seized during President Calderón’s first two years in office: 30,231 weapons (16,401 of which were assault weapons), more than 3.5 million rounds of ammunition, and 2,196 grenades.

(emphasis mine) And that was only one shipment that was deected and seized.
And this other account:

Back in Phoenix, Newell is in a walk-in vault loaded with weapons seized 120 miles north of the border. The vault is filled with hundreds of rifles in wall racks, handguns in stacks and semi-automatics wrapped with plastic ties to prevent their firing. This is just one of a number of ATF vaults in Arizona filled with weapons that will be destroyed and then replaced with newly seized weapons. Newell points to a trash can filled with AK-47 knockoffs.

"These guns were actually seized in Phoenix from some traffickers that were going to take them to Mexico," he says. "Actually this case was one of about 30."

The fun bit is that the US would not be expected to do anything exceedingly difficult, other than enforcing relevant laws that are already there:

In the face of this flood of weapons, there is much that the United States can do to help Mexico roll back drug syndicates. For example, enforcing existent legislation, such as the Arms Export Control Act, would effectively criminalize the sale of weapons to individuals whose intent is to export these firearms to countries such as Mexico where they are illegal. Furthermore, a return to the import ban on assault weapons in accordance with the 1968 Gun Control Act would prohibit the importation of such weapons unless they are used for sporting purposes, while the passage of a bill to regulate .50 mm caliber firearms under the National Firearms Act would go a long way in helping to reduce the number of assault weapons flowing into Mexico.

Utter and complete bullshit. Assault Rifles are classified as fully automatic weapons. These things cost $8,000 and you sell your soul to the Government to get the right to purchase them. Grenades, grenade launchers, and LAW rockets? Even more bullshit. These are even more restricted then assault rifles. For these to have crossed the border to the south they would have to have been STOLEN from the Government. So private ownership is a red herring here.

[Akkleptos]

Utter and complete bullshit. Assault Rifles are classified as fully automatic weapons. These things cost $8,000 and you sell your soul to the Government to get the right to purchase them. Grenades, grenade launchers, and LAW rockets? Even more bullshit. These are even more restricted then assault rifles. For these to have crossed the border to the south they would have to have been STOLEN from the Government. So private ownership is a red herring here.

Of course if you can provide proof that all of the above were stolen from their legitimate US civilian purchasers or illegally sold by said owners (in a pattern proving collusion of course), I'll retract my bullshit claim.

I didn't say all of these guns, ammunition and other weapons were being legally purchased in the US to be smuggled into Mexico. The thing is only that guns and other weapons are somehow finding their way into Mexico from the US. Are they being smuggled into the US, then into Mexico? Are they being stolen from warehouses? Who knows? Also, could it be that some of the guns are probably being illegally converted to full auto, thus becoming classifiable as assault guns? Or maybe it's just that the reporters don't know the difference.

However, something fishy is going on at gun and ammo shops near the frontier, apparently:

Signs Of A Smuggler Purchase

Dave LaRue, who owns Legendary Guns, a shop in Phoenix that sells everything from Old West antiques to modern firearms, says a real tip-off that a gun may be smuggled is if the buyer tries to use cash, avoiding a financial trail.

"There are plenty of signs," he says. The buyers "don't understand how the gun works. They don't know what the gun is. They come in and point at it and say: 'I'll take that gun.' It's so unusual for somebody to buy an expensive gun and pay for it in cash, and quite often with small bills, that you just think that this can't be right."

LaRue says he and his employees have seen the pattern often enough to refuse to sell if they see anything suspicious. They work closely with the ATF. Others are not so careful. Another Phoenix gun dealer is about to stand trial on charges he sold 600 weapons he knew were headed to the Sinaloa drug cartel in Mexico.

[His Divine Shadow]

Heh, Norincos are illegal in the US? My dad has one of their 1911 .45s. I suppose it'd be illegal for him to bring it with him if (hypothetically) he moved to the US?

Yes he would have to leave it behind.

[Akkleptos]

Dave LaRue, who owns Legendary Guns, a shop in Phoenix that sells everything from Old West antiques to modern firearms, says a real tip-off that a gun may be smuggled is if the buyer tries to use cash, avoiding a financial trail.

"There are plenty of signs," he says. The buyers "don't understand how the gun works. They don't know what the gun is. They come in and point at it and say: 'I'll take that gun.' It's so unusual for somebody to buy an expensive gun and pay for it in cash, and quite often with small bills, that you just think that this can't be right."

Of course, it's possible to ask Mr. La Rue himself about just what kind of weapons are they being asked to sell to shady buyers, in order to dispel doubts.

LegendaryGuns.com/about

[Flash]

In other words, the Mexican Ambassador is either ignorant of US firearm laws or is fucking lying.

Take your pick.

I highly doubt the ambassador is 'fucking lying' as you say. There is clearly a problem with weapons being smuggled into Mexico from the US, and since I doubt the ambassador is a gun nut, i'm going to forgive him getting some definitions wrong.
Serious question time - is it possible to modify these 'assault weapons' so that they fire on full automatic? If so, is it difficult?

FWIW, I'm certainly willing to work out reasonable compromises WRT US gun laws if our southern neighbors are willing to do the same regarding their citizens illegally fleeing northward.

If they aren't willing to work with us, then to be honest why should I be willing to work with them?

Here's a thought: maybe, just maybe if the US clamped down on the smuggling of weapons into Mexico, the flow of illegal immigrants north would slow, as less people would be running the fuck away from armed and violent drug cartels. Not saying that it would eliminate the problem of course, but it could help.

And maybe the average Mexican citizen feels the same way you do. "I'm certainly willing to do something about the illegal immigration problem if they do something about all that weapon smuggling. But if they aren't willing to work with us, then to be honest why should I be willing to work with them?"

[Kanastrous]

Serious question time - is it possible to modify these 'assault weapons' so that they fire on full automatic? If so, is it difficult?

The answer varies by weapon model, and by when the specific model was produced. Older AR-15 type rifles, for example, can be very easy to modify to full-auto with the installation of a new trigger group and sear (used to be able to mail-order these out of magazines, and pick them up over the counter at gun shows). Newer rifles of many types have been internally revised so that the drop-in kits won't work; you would need the services of a gunsmith to get full-auto and not all semi-auto rifles are suitable to that kind of modification, either.

There are some sooper-scheep weapons that could be modified to a form of full-auto by dint of hammer-and-file type modification but I think most if not all of those models have been off the US market for years, now.

[Commander 598]

Serious question time - is it possible to modify these 'assault weapons' so that they fire on full automatic? If so, is it difficult?

That would depend on the weapon. For some of them it's merely a matter of switching out the right parts (Which in the case of automatic parts I presume are as expensive and regualated as the weapons themselves) and for others it would require a literal hackjob of existing parts and I would say is a bit unsafe.

I personally think it's practically irrelevant since the unmodified weapons themselves can fire as fast as your trigger finger can move and I doubt much of anyone is really hitting shit either way.

I don't even know why they would bother smuggling many weapons out of the US to Mexico, a not irrelevant portion of Mexico's police and military are on the drug runner's payroll IIRC, that should provide plenty of weaponry. Moreover, checking the Mexican Army Wikipedia article lists them as having basically all of the weapons that were listed in that posted article (Who the hell references FN as Herstal?) except maybe for unnamed "assault rifles" which could be anything from cheap Norinco SKS copies available from just about any US Pawn Shop or gun store by the dozen to fully capable H&K G3s to M4A1s most likely liberated from a Mexican Armory than any US source given the sheer number of them.

[Coyote]

In other words, the Mexican Ambassador is either ignorant of US firearm laws or is fucking lying.

Take your pick.

I highly doubt the ambassador is 'fucking lying' as you say. There is clearly a problem with weapons being smuggled into Mexico from the US, and since I doubt the ambassador is a gun nut, i'm going to forgive him getting some definitions wrong.

I don't know, he may be lying to make it "America's fault" instead of his own government.

Serious question time - is it possible to modify these 'assault weapons' so that they fire on full automatic? If so, is it difficult?

Others have answered this; I'll also add that it is dangerous to convert them to fire full-auto because the rifling in the civilian versions isn't able to handle the rapid fire capability and it screws up the gun barrel really quickly.

Here's a thought: maybe, just maybe if the US clamped down on the smuggling of weapons into Mexico, the flow of illegal immigrants north would slow, as less people would be running the fuck away from armed and violent drug cartels. Not saying that it would eliminate the problem of course, but it could help.

I'm sure that's why people have been coming into the US all along.

And maybe the average Mexican citizen feels the same way you do. "I'm certainly willing to do something about the illegal immigration problem if they do something about all that weapon smuggling. But if they aren't willing to work with us, then to be honest why should I be willing to work with them?"

Takes two to tango. I mentioned before that part of this is our fault in a roundabout way-- we made life so hard for the Colombia cartels, the Mexicans moved in to full the gap. We caused the drug wars to come closer to home. We've also done little to address the consumption problem here.

The roots of this problem started long, long before any guns were ever smuggled anywhere.

[Ryan Thunder]

Takes two to tango. I mentioned before that part of this is our fault in a roundabout way-- we made life so hard for the Colombia cartels, the Mexicans moved in to full the gap. We caused the drug wars to come closer to home.

How can you say that when all you were doing is cracking down on illegal behaviour? Isn't that like saying that a string of murders is the police's fault for attempting to apprehend a criminal, prompting him to take hostages?

[Phantasee]

Takes two to tango. I mentioned before that part of this is our fault in a roundabout way-- we made life so hard for the Colombia cartels, the Mexicans moved in to full the gap. We caused the drug wars to come closer to home.

How can you say that when all you were doing is cracking down on illegal behaviour? Isn't that like saying that a string of murders is the police's fault for attempting to apprehend a criminal, prompting him to take hostages?

Where the hell did you make that leap of logic? I need to put up warning signs for others.

If you destroy the ability of the Colombian cartels to operate, someone else will rise to fill the vacuum. In this case, it was the Mexicans. They are closer to the US, so their supply lines are shorter. It's the difference between Germany attacking Russia vs Poland: Russia is a far target, and supply lines can be used to choke the life out of you. Poland is next door, and you can have your drugs/soldiers in there before tea-time.

Yeah, the US was 'cracking down on illegal behaviour', but it's comparing an apple orchard to an orange, comparing the operations of drug cartels to a murderer.

[Coyote]

Takes two to tango. I mentioned before that part of this is our fault in a roundabout way-- we made life so hard for the Colombia cartels, the Mexicans moved in to full the gap. We caused the drug wars to come closer to home.

How can you say that when all you were doing is cracking down on illegal behaviour? Isn't that like saying that a string of murders is the police's fault for attempting to apprehend a criminal, prompting him to take hostages?

ZOMFG you're serious.

Dude, this is the Law of Unintended Consequences, not... what you're saying. Phant already covered it well enough, I have to get some sleep.

[Ryan Thunder]

ZOMFG you're serious.

Dude, this is the Law of Unintended Consequences, not... what you're saying. Phant already covered it well enough, I have to get some sleep.

Ah, I think I get it. Never mind. Shutting up.

[Glocksman]

Others have answered this; I'll also add that it is dangerous to convert them to fire full-auto because the rifling in the civilian versions isn't able to handle the rapid fire capability and it screws up the gun barrel really quickly.

Prior to the late 1970's, semi auto weapons that fired from an open bolt were readily available, such as the semi auto MAC 10 and semi auto versions of the Sten gun.

IIRC, Denver talk radio host Alan Berg was killed by a white supremacist whackjob who used a MAC 10 semi auto that had been illegally converted to full automatic.

Due to the ease of converting an open bolt gun to full auto (you can literally do it with a file), open bolt semi autos have been illegal for over 20 years for unregulated civilian sale in the USA.

Nowadays, the semi auto MAC's you see for sale fire from a closed bolt.
Closed bolt weapons are much more difficult to safely convert to full automatic.

Civilian AR's have been modified to make it harder to convert (Colt AR's literally have to have the block machined out in order to install a full auto parts set) to full auto, including cutting out the auto sear trip surface from the civilian AR bolt.
Any machinist capable of converting a Colt semi auto AR to full auto is capable of building a machine gun from scratch.

ATF regulations aren't very clear at times, but they consider you to be in possession of an illegal machine gun if you own an AR and have certain full auto parts (bolt carrier among other things) in your possession, even if the parts are not installed in your AR.

IOW, if you own an AR, be really careful about what kind of Milsurp M16 parts you purchase for your gun.


Civilian legal AK's have had their bolts and receivers modified to make conversion harder but if you have access to a full auto AK parts set, a drill press and a competent machinist, you can convert an AK to full auto.

The thing to keep in mind is that Joe Shmoe who thinks all he has to do is file down the sear notch on his AR or AK to make it full auto is likely to have the weapon blow up in his face.

With closed bolt weapons, if you file the sear down the weapon might fire full auto.
It also might not fire at all because the hammer is following the bolt into battery instead of waiting for the bolt to close and then slamming down on the firing pin.
The hammer might not strike the pin with enough force to detonate the cartridge primer.

If Joe is really unlucky, the hammer might strike the firing pin with enough force to detonate the primer before the bolt is fully locked shut.

That is not a Good Thing™
Joe could just wind up with a wrecked weapon if he's lucky.
If he's unlucky, the bolt will be protruding from his forehead.

To sum it up, it can be done but unless you really know what you're doing, you'll have an unreliable weapon that'll probably get you killed.

[His Divine Shadow]

And why would you want to? Full auto is useless, using it in most situations will reduce it's effectiveness.

[Glocksman]

And why would you want to? Full auto is useless, using it in most situations will reduce it's effectiveness.

The fun factor, of course.
If legal full autos were within my budget, I'd purchase either a full auto Ruger 10/22 .22LR carbine or an M16 with a .22LR full auto conversion kit installed.

Outside of the 'fun factor', I agree with you.
I'd be much more afraid of the hillbilly armed with a lever action Winchester 94 that he knows how to use than some gangbanger armed with a Glock 18 held sideways.

'Shooting straight with my .38 beat his talking jive with his .45'

While I enjoyed the few times I've legally shot full autos, I can't afford legal weapons of my own and the illegal ones are simply not worth the penalty if you get caught.

[Zixinus]

Besides regulations to prevent sales and enforcement of strict home firearm safety (that is, buying a safe), what would be the most effective measures against weapons smuggling?