Why do people love bashing America?

[Crossroads Inc.]

What in-depth and thoughtful examples? All I've seen is stuff along the lines of "America suckz". Some incredibly shallow "fact" posts too.

Oh my where to start?

Ok how about just ONE Example for you...
The Invasion of Iraq in response to 9-11 and WMD's.

At the time of the invasion, When then president bush SWORE Iraq was 'This close' to having nuclear weapons, about 50% oif America, as well as much of the rest of the world said over and over that he did not. Again and agin it was said in Europe and elsewhere that Saddam was NOT a threat and that he had NO chemical or biological weapons...

America invaded none the less, and 10years later we have yet to find anything.

I will not argue about the merits of overthrowing a dictator, or arguing about brining "freedom" to Iraq.
Simply that there is an example of the world being right, and America was in the wrong.

[Edi]

What in-depth and thoughtful examples? All I've seen is stuff along the lines of "America suckz". Some incredibly shallow "fact" posts too.

So all the posts where people pointed out that one of the things that bothers them about America is how the US talks about freedom, democracy and similar things and holds itself up as a shining example, and then you have things like Abu Ghraib, the Guantanamo Bay prison camp and other similar things, a recent report about how US forces have tortured people in he War on Terror and more. And all of that is just "America suckzors" or otherwise shallow?

What would you consider a non-shallow criticism of the US?

Note that if you try to just blow this question off with some glib bullshit dismissal, I'll recommend your immediate banning for being a troll, so you had better take it seriously.

[Lord Pounder]

I'm a non-conformist who wants to see his country be respected.

Respect is earned dickwad. In my life time, which I'm assuming is longer than yours, I've seen America do dick all to earn respect. Bullys do not get respect, they gain fear and hate. America has bullied it's closest allies, interfered in the development and politics of other nations.

America armed Islamist groups to fight the Russians in Afghanistan then cry when those arms and training are turned against them. In the 80's America called Saddam a friend, then turned against him when it suited.

I have American friends, but as a nation they stink. Deal with it junior.

[Korto]

You want to set up a separate, volunteer, militia, to defend against whom exactly? Who threatens you? What are you so frightened of?
There is no other country in the world that can successfully wage a war against the US homeland. It is possible Russia can still nuke you to oblivion, but only at the cost of having that happen, worse, to themselves, and I'd hardly call that successful.
You may in the next couple of decades lose primacy in the waters surrounding China, but a militia is hardly going to help that.
So what's this militia meant to achieve, other then stroke the egos of a bunch of wanna-be Rambos?

I have no problem with 18 year olds running in elections. It's not like they've got any chance of getting elected to any place of real power. I remember being 18, and I wouldn't vote for my friends or myself in a pink fit.
Can you provide evidence of immature brains being more advantageously flexible, rather than just speculation? There's scientific studies that show children's brains are black-and-white fallacy prone, unable to understand subtleties, and others that show teenage boys are prone to showing off for pretty girls (and in other news, water is wet). Is that who you're suggesting needs to be in charge? Someone unable to understand subtlety, and with a need to show off?

[Metahive]

I'm a non-conformist who wants to see his country be respected.

You go, maverick! Your thoughts, attitudes and ideas are only shared by millions of like-minded people who have an entire news channel and powerful political party echoing them! Which means you're practically as oppressed as the Jews were under Hitler or so I heard.

[Darth Herobrine]

I've talked about "Gitmo torture" thing on the thread about "punishment" for Gitmo "offences".

In response to Lord Pounder, I present a fairly old saying: Nations have interests, not loyalties. Also, I've already said that America is bullying its allies because they refuse to act like allies. As for crying about American trained Islamists in Afghanistan, I've only seen people asking why the idiots who were in charge at that time didn't stick around to help the Afghani people after the Russians called it quits.

First of all, I'm not saying I'm being oppressed. Secondly, there's no political establishment backing me. And as for millions of like-minde people, GOOD! I need some reinforcements politically.

As for the National Defense Force, call it flood insurance. I think that the US needs to, as the cliche goes, hope for the best, plan for the worst. Anyway, the NDF would provide some bite to the people's bark when it comes to internal politics.

[Darth Herobrine]

Can you provide evidence of immature brains being more advantageously flexible, rather than just speculation? There's scientific studies that show children's brains are black-and-white fallacy prone, unable to understand subtleties, and others that show teenage boys are prone to showing off for pretty girls (and in other news, water is wet). Is that who you're suggesting needs to be in charge? Someone unable to understand subtlety, and with a need to show off?

Well, teenagers couldn't possibly be worse than the adult 2 year-olds who make-up the majority of the US Federal Government. Also, look back to the War of 1812. We put a 10 year-old in charge of a captured British ship. His lack of subtlety was what allowed him to subdue the captured ship's captain. That 10 year-old was future admiral Daniel Farragut. And he was an average American of that time. Today, we should be able to do much better. This means that eighteen year-olds today are actually more capable than you might think. A still-growing brain is a brain better suited to adapting than fully developed ones.

[Broomstick]

As for an eighteen year-old's brain not being fully developed, ever thought that might make them more flexible?

By that argument we should be voting infants into public office.

The last mental component to mature is something called “executive function” which oversees planning, working memory, attention, problem solving, verbal reasoning, inhibition, mental flexibility, task switching, and initiation and monitoring of actions. It's what allows you to fully utilize your intellect. It is NOT complete until somewhere between the age of 20-30, so 25 is a reasonable compromise on when it happens (it matures sooner in women than men, probably accounting for much of the young, stupid guy behavior and why young males are more likely to die in either accidents or violence than pretty much anyone else).

Do we want people with impaired ability to plan, solve problems, reason, monitor their actions, and properly inhibit negative impulses running the country? I don't think so. Actually, we have too much of that already.

Also, in healthy, normal adults mental flexibility doesn't start to fall off until around 70 or so. About the only mental function that is “impaired” in full adults is language acquisition which starts to diminish rapidly in early childhood and definitely takes a nose dive in puberty. Despite that, adults are capable of acquiring new languages if they apply the effort.

I admit that America isn't perfect, but then, we never claimed to be so in the first place.

No, you're just positioning yourself in the camp that thinks America is somehow “best in the world” in all things. Which, frankly, is embarrassing to those of us with fully developed executive functioning.

Section 1: To provide The United States of America with additional capacity for self-defense, an independent National Defense Force (NDF) shall be established, separate from the authority of the United States Departments of Defense, Homeland Security, and the National Guard state militias.

Uh... why do we need this? Seriously, does the US need MORE people running around with guns? You first say they should be independent of the DoD then say they should be equipped by the DoD – make up your mind. Automatic weapons? WTF?

You're under 25, aren't you?

I've already mentioned something I don't like about America: the polarized political system!

What alternative would you propose? I'm not aware of any democracy that doesn't have divisive differences of opinion. Also, you crow about “American democracy” then say you hate the polarization, yet that polarization is an intrinsic feature of “American democracy”. Parliamentary democracy seems much less polarizing but I'll at least admit that I've never lived under such a system so I'm not sure my opinion regarding such a system is valid.

I'm a non-conformist who wants to see his country be respected.

What makes you think the US is not respected?

In response to Lord Pounder, I present a fairly old saying: Nations have interests, not loyalties. Also, I've already said that America is bullying its allies because they refuse to act like allies.

WTF do you mean by that?

Let me clarify, just in case you're fuzzy about the notion, that “allies” does not equal “servants”. Our allies do not have to agree with us in all cases, nor do they always have to go along with our actions.

Now, I'd be interested in knowing how you think our allies aren't acting as such rather than general accusations of it.

As for the National Defense Force, call it flood insurance. I think that the US needs to, as the cliche goes, hope for the best, plan for the worst. Anyway, the NDF would provide some bite to the people's bark when it comes to internal politics.

Why do you want to duplicate the National Guard, which is essentially what your idea does? Unless you're talking about a completely independent militia group. You do realize that such groups have left some considerable carnage in recent history? Why the FUCK do you want to give automatic weapons to a group with no oversight?

Who the fuck are we worried about? As already noted, no one has the capability to invade and conquer the US. Obliterate it, yes, Russia and China could do that if they wanted to drop some nukes but the retaliation would really suck for them, wouldn't it?

“Bite” for internal politics? What? Are you planning for a second US Civil War? Oh, yeah, that's a good idea...

[Broomstick]

Also, look back to the War of 1812. We put a 10 year-old in charge of a captured British ship. His lack of subtlety was what allowed him to subdue the captured ship's captain. That 10 year-old was future admiral Daniel Farragut. And he was an average American of that time.

Please provide evidence to support that rather extraordinary claim.

[Darth Herobrine]

Pay attention. I provided a control group for the NDF. Look at section 7. I don't have it with me right now, but I got the Farragut thing from Do Hard Things. Read it some time.

[Skywalker_T-65]

I have to agree with Broomstick on this one. This is embarrassing for less...patriotic/nationalistic Americans. As that implies, I'm American myself...and I have yet to see any 'bashing' in this thread. I've seen some legitimate complaints, but no 'bashing'. Certainly, America has done a lot of bad/stupid things. Far from unique in that regard, aside from our inability to man up to a lot of these things.

Case in point: The fact that we have been involved in A LOT of wars, either from starting them (Vietnam, Gulf 2.0, Revolution, 1812, etc.) or from jumping in to MURRICA CRUSH at some point (WW1/2, Korea, various smaller wars like Grenada).

While some of those can be seen as justified, like the Second World War, some of them can't. Various interventionist wars that Thanas and company call out for example. Like the Mexican-American War, the Philippine War, or the Indian Wars.

There are more things I could say, but I have to get to class. The overall point here is that no one in this thread (or at least, none of the ones with valid points) are saying 'Murrica SUKZ'...they are giving valid points. None of them are even claiming this makes America especially bad...just that we are far from perfect.

[Korto]

Well, teenagers couldn't possibly be worse than the adult 2 year-olds who make-up the majority of the US Federal Government.

Oh, it could be worse. It could be far, far, worse...

Also, look back to the War of 1812. We put a 10 year-old (well, 12 at the time, apparently - Korto) in charge of a captured British ship. His lack of subtlety was what allowed him to subdue the captured ship's captain. That 10 year-old was future admiral Daniel Farragut. And he was an average American of that time (prove it). Today, we should be able to do much better (prove it). This means that eighteen year-olds today are actually more capable than you might think. A still-growing brain is a brain better suited to adapting than fully developed ones.

And this tale, impressive feat as it may be, demonstrates a youth's grasp of subtlety how? Or is it meant to demonstrate how a lack of it empowers the youth to great feats of fire and steel, which are so similar and translate so smoothly to running a country of hundreds of millions of people, budget of trillions, powerful people who need to be dealt with diplomatically, and problems requiring patience, perseverance, and empathy?

[Zwinmar]

Just look up the U.S.'s history in regards to keeping or violating treaties.

[Lagmonster]

It's worth arguing, I think, that the farther you try to reach, the clumsier your grasp.

America has the distinction of being a powerful political entity at a time where every little event can become global news. That's a tough gig to play. I don't envy the US for what it has to live up to. I also don't feel bad for it for how much shit it takes for its failures.

[Broomstick]

Pay attention. I provided a control group for the NDF. Look at section 7.

Oh, you mean this?

Section 7: A National Defense Command shall be created to oversee NDF operations and shall be independent of the federal Government; instead it shall be comprised of elected representatives from each militia and a civilian Administration Committee selected by citizens of the states. The selection of these Command members shall not be influenced by the actions of political factions or parties.

What qualifies any of these outside-the-military militia members to command armed people? And how the HELL are you going to keep political influence out of this? Forbid anyone who has ever been a member of a politcal party from being on the committee? Analyze voting records (which is between impossible and illegal) for political bias?

I don't have it with me right now, but I got the Farragut thing from Do Hard Things. Read it some time.

Child, not all of us are supported by our parents. We have to do things like earn a living. I do not have to accept a reading assignment or homework from someone likely young enough to be my grandchild. Finish your own schooling first before presuming to instruct others.

Meanwhile, provide CITES for your argument. As in YOU DO THE FUCKING RESEARCH.

Oh, and if you don't want to be treated like a spoiled child? Don't act like one.

Would also help if you had some actual real-world experience but I'm allowing for the fact you may not be old enough to be let out of the house without supervision.

[Thanas]

America didn't start the Spanish-American War, Spain did. We back-dated our declaration. And I was focusing, not on wars America was involved in, but wars America started. Pay attention people!

The US started every single war or got involved in them without being DOW'ed that I listed.

And it started the Spanish American war. "Remember the Maine" etc. Spain offered compromise and got an ultimatum in response: "Hand over land you controlled for over 400 years or we will declare war." That is what started the war. It was a a war of blatant aggression.

(Funny thing is, back during the ten years war, the Spanish could easily have demanded war with the USA - a war they most likely would have won - but they did not.)

I admit that America isn't perfect, but then, we never claimed to be so in the first place.

No, you just claim that it is the freedomest nation on earth. Which is laughably false to boot, the US is about the 18th most free nation on earth at best.

[Thanas]

P.S. Ottoman rule is a self-inflicted thing, since Turkey is part of the Middle East.

Are you fucking kidding me? A. Turkey is not part of the Middle East. B. By that logic, Nazi occupation of Poland was a self-inflicted thing too, because both are part of Europe.

Also, America only bullies its allies because they refuse to act like allies.

You know that ally does not mean "jump when we tell you to", right?

[Darth Herobrine]

"Read it sometime" was a suggestion. As for this,

Pay attention. I provided a control group for the NDF. Look at section 7.

Oh, you mean this?

Section 7: A National Defense Command shall be created to oversee NDF operations and shall be independent of the federal Government; instead it shall be comprised of elected representatives from each militia and a civilian Administration Committee selected by citizens of the states. The selection of these Command members shall not be influenced by the actions of political factions or parties.

What qualifies any of these outside-the-military militia members to command armed people? And how the HELL are you going to keep political influence out of this? Forbid anyone who has ever been a member of a political party from being on the committee? Analyze voting records (which is between impossible and illegal) for political bias?

that is not what I'm saying. I am saying that the political parties aren't allowed to control or manipulate the Command. Anyways, the NDF would be like the Army Reserve until being activated.

[Metahive]

You still haven't justified why it would be a good idea to duplicate the National Guard in the first place. What problems are solved by the US having a bigger militia back home? How about you get more specific, Dominarch's Herobrine?

[Korto]

Something's just occurred to me. I'll ignore the entire issue of whether the idea of your militia is a good one for the moment.

You are seriously going to propose to your government that they set up a national paramilitary that they are to have no control over whatsoever? The idea that you even dream they'd agree. You are so delusional I could kiss you.

[Skywalker_T-65]

Yeah...the idea of any Government allowing that is pretty hilarious. Let alone the United States government.


Oh, and you can say 'not controlled by any political party'...but the leaders will still be following the ideals of one or the other. Unless you by some miracle find genuinely apolitical people. And in my experience...good luck with that.

[Metahive]

And yet the government is supposed to finance it. Doesn't that sound like the stroke of a genius...or something an ignorant 14-year old would come up with.

[madd0ct0r]

as trolling goes, this is getting a tad obvious now.

[El Moose Monstero]

At the risk of no-content posting, he is called 'Darth Herobrine' - 'herobrine' being the phrase that Minecraft folks and developers troll each other by claiming has been inserted into the game or can be found.

[Dr. Trainwreck]

So, troll and idiot. Flagg wanted to believe. I believe in Harvey Flagg. And with all this stupidity about "Wah! Polarization!" I'd bet a fascist in denial as well.