Knox convicted for second time

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Thanas
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Re: Knox convicted for second time

Post by Thanas »

First: Knox has lied at length about the interrogations she was submitted to. A journalist had acess to audio recordings and states that she and her memoirs are full of shit.
http://thefreelancedesk.com/perugia-pro ... -in-italy/

Here is the evidence you look for, Kitsune:
Crini also told the court that results of a new examination of a knife, which the original prosecutors considered as the murder weapon, should be considered as proof that Knox killed Kercher. The knife, which was found in Sollecito’s apartment during the initial days of the investigation, has what the prosecution maintains is Kercher’s DNA in a tiny groove on the blade. The spot was too small to double-test, and it had to be amplified beyond the standard measures of practice in forensic science. In the original trial, DNA on the handle was attributed to Knox, which, together with the Kercher DNA, was crucial evidence used to convict the Seattle native. During the first appeal, the spot of DNA attributed to Kercher was deemed inconclusive by independent experts because it was too small to double-test. During the new appeal, a new examination of a previously untested spot on the blade near the handle again proved that Knox had at some point held the knife. No other spots on the knife were retested during this appellate trial, and Crini asked that the original findings—that Kercher’s DNA is on the blade—be considered in their final verdict in the new appeal. He said that the new tests proved for sure that Knox was the author of the murder.

Crini asked the court to consider all the evidence used to convict Knox and Sollecito in 2009—not just the previous appellate court’s focus on two highly-contested pieces of forensic evidence. Crini instead wants this court to look back to testimony that the first appellate court had dismissed. Crini told the court that they should not ignore the testimony by Nara Capezzali, an elderly neighbor who testified that she heard a blood curdling scream the night Kercher was murdered, followed by what she said were several people running up the metal steps near her home away from the house. Crini also told the court not to ignore the testimony by Antonio Curatolo, a homeless man who has since died, who said he saw Knox and Sollecito arguing and agitated late on the night of the murder as they allegedly looked over the crime scene from a perch near where he slept on a park bench. Crini also said the court needed to believe the testimony by Marco Quintavalle, a storeowner who claimed he saw a woman who looked like Knox buying bleach and cleaning supplies the morning after the murder.
More at this link, including discussion of forensic evidence:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... uilty.html
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Re: Knox convicted for second time

Post by Thanas »

This is the unofficial english translation of the Appeal court which ordered the new trial:

http://thefreelancedesk.com/wp-content/ ... ersion.pdf

I am convinced that she did it after reading that. Read it from the beginning but pay special attention from page 56 onwards.
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Re: Knox convicted for second time

Post by Kitsune »

The Norfolk Four also came up with all sorts of stories and implicated a bunch of people. . . . .I consider physical evidence to be far superior to any witness testimony including confessions. Being honest, our memories are very faulty things. It is almost certain that some of yours (and some of my) memories are false. Inconsistencies are par for the course. Even though confessions are the gold star with juries, they should not be.

This both includes discussion of innocent and guilty suspects. Shows how easy it is to make mistakes while talking to the police.


As far as the knife. . . .From what I read, at the time the lab was not qualified for LCN processes / As well, they don't have a perfect custody chain.

I also need to bring up this, from a British not American researcher, and far prior to the case so not tainted by this case
http://www.denverda.org/DNA_Documents/L ... filing.pdf

Just in case you think the science has advanced since 2001, this is an article from 2009 (although a US source in this case)
http://www.denverda.org/DNA_Documents/CMJ%20Budowle.pdf
Give this excerpt
Since LCN samples are low in quantity and because of the extreme sensitivity of detection, background level DNA and DNA from casual contact may and will be detected. Thus, profiles that are observed may not be relevant to the case.
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Re: Knox convicted for second time

Post by Thanas »

Jesus Christ. You did not read the court pdf, did you?

Especially after reading 90 onwards you would not make such claims.
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Re: Knox convicted for second time

Post by Kitsune »

Thanas wrote:Jesus Christ. You did not read the court pdf, did you?
I read from around 56 on for a few pages. Did not seem to be any certain proof of guilt.

Can you admit that while every piece of evidence has to either indicate that she was physically involved or at least do not contradict it, if a single piece of solid evidence that says "She was not there," then she was not guilty of being in the room and being physically involved murdering Ms Kercher.

I argue that the little evidence there is in the actual murder scene of her while there is plenty of evidence of Guede being at the crime scene. That is why I asked if there was any case even remotely like it. Closest I know is the Norfolk Four and most forensics experts agree than the Norfolk Four were not responsible.

Edit: Reading from page 90 on. . . .Being the way they breezily just dismissed contamination when it has been pointed out and how they dismiss it on the clasp, they logic is badly flawed.
Last edited by Kitsune on 2014-02-03 09:20pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Knox convicted for second time

Post by Irbis »

Simon_Jester wrote:IF Knox is found innocent, and that is certainly possible, THEN will she be compensated for the large amount of time she's spent in prison?

IF she is found innocent, THEN will she be compensated for expenses associated with all the numerous trials? Some of them? None of them?
As Thanas said, yes, this is not USA, in Europe law generally tries to not ruin people with legal costs. For one, because public lawyers are cheaper due to not needing to keep tabs on trillion precedences.
If nothing else, this should serve as an incentive for the Italian courts to do things properly the first time, rather than have things devolve into a drawn-out appeals battle.
Hint - this is exactly what European courts do. Appeals are rare, prosecution only ever bothers with them if they have even tiny hope of case not being thrown outright the second time. Because, unlike US DAs, they don't get to hide facts, appellations changing anything if there were no court errors are rare.
I did not say that the prosecutor was being deliberately unfair and cherrypicking evidence. I said that as I understand it, they were prosecuting- that their primary role is to explain and lay out the state's case against the defendant.

They may also be required to take into account evidence in the defendant's defense. But that doesn't mean their job is to be fully neutral and refuse to take a position on the guilt or innocence of the defendant.

I understand what you have told me. But did you mean your statements to imply that the prosecutor is NOT chiefly responsible for, well... prosecuting? For "working as a lawyer in an attempt to prove someone guilty of a crime?"
The word you are looking for is 'procurator'. This is how the office is called in most of civil law countries, 'prosecutors' exist in common law only.
In this case, I'm trying to ask questions about why it isn't seen as important that when the defendant hears "you are innocent, you may go," that statement be binding on the courts.

The reply I'm getting is that because European courts are just so much better and more competent, they don't need their verdicts of innocence to be binding as insurance against a biased prosecution. And that the prosecutor's appeals are only granted for good reasons.
If no one appeals within a set time, usually week or two, yes, this statement is binding in Europe :|
If continental European 'prosecutors' are NOT at all partisan, then arguably we need a whole different word for what they do in the English language. I hadn't quite grasped that until today.
See above. Procurators might be partisan, but usually for very different reason that US prosecutors, and most of them seem to be absent in this case.
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Re: Knox convicted for second time

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Found this written from a British point of view while trying to see if there have been any back and forth discussion of the forensics
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... -sollecito
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
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"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)
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Re: Knox convicted for second time

Post by Thanas »

Kitsune wrote:
Thanas wrote:Jesus Christ. You did not read the court pdf, did you?
I read from around 56 on for a few pages. Did not seem to be any certain proof of guilt.
READ IT FROM THE FUCKING START AND READ EVERYTHING, YOU FUCKING IMBECILE. FFS.

What is this, idiot school?
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Re: Knox convicted for second time

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Did you read everything than everybody posted. . . .No, because you answered me too quickly to have read through the research papers that I posted.

As far as how mysteriously DNA can transfer around. . . .Another British source, BBC in this case, directly contradicting what they wrote as far as DNA contamination
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24534110
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
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"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
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Re: Knox convicted for second time

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Kitsune wrote:Did you read everything than everybody posted. . . .No, because you answered me too quickly to have read through the research papers that I posted.
Because those papers are totally the reason for why there is a trial in the first place.

EDIT: And if you had read the first link on this first page you would know how much to trust Hampikian, the main source for the DNA case.
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Re: Knox convicted for second time

Post by Kitsune »

And I found what looks like forensic people actually discussing the physical evidence
http://viewfromwilmington.blogspot.com/ ... lding.html
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
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"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
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Re: Knox convicted for second time

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Kitsune wrote:And I found what looks like forensic people actually discussing the physical evidence
http://viewfromwilmington.blogspot.com/ ... lding.html
Look at the time.

Then look at the court decision for a new trial which names it experts.

Then go and hang your head in shame. FFS.
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Re: Knox convicted for second time

Post by Edi »

I've had enough. It may be considered bad form to use moderator powers ion threads omne participates in, but I said from the outset this thread would be locked if the bullshit did not stop and we have whole fucking new heaps of manure here now because some people do not seem to be able to grasp the concept of looking at the evidence in full.

Thread locked. I will also lock any new threads on this subject that are posted prior to having the entire full court opinion from the Italian court available for the public.
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