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Axis Kast
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Post by Axis Kast »

I learned that Iraq isn't a legitimate country, it's Saddam's Regime of Terror.
“Legitimacy” is a mere notion – and an ever-changing one at that. This is one of those problems where approach seems to matter most. One person’s rational objectivity is another’s jingoistic bias.

Don’t tell me you honestly believe that Saddam Hussein is a man who deserves to remain in power. At best, your argument revolves around (A) the fear that Bush will copy the preemption of Iraq elsewhere in the world (and in regions where he does all the calculations regardless of your personal opinion) or (B) the abject concern that our war to “liberate” the Iraqi people from one dictator (Hussein) will put them under another – and at tremendous human cost.

Both arguments are flawed. Legitimacy ends with the ability to provide for ones own defense. Iraq can no longer do so. From the realist’s point of view, Saddam Hussein’s regimé is no longer sustainable in any sense of the word. I could make a similar argument – much less brusquely – on wishy-washy legal grounds. Assuming I don’t call him out for his invasion of Kuwait, Hussein’s constant violations of United Nations mandates, systematic repression of his own people, and obvious efforts to perpetuate a brutalistic dictatorship have provided all the evidence necessary for a change of government. Again, your argument is probably centered on mistrust of the United States. You’d have preferred that this was taken care of either globally or not at all. You seem to forget that from President George W. Bush and Prime Minister Tony Blair’s points of view, Hussein represents a clear, present, and eminent danger to both his own people and the immediate neighborhood of the Persian Gulf. A wrong calculation or poor move on his part – already evidenced during the Gulf War and before – could force us into war on much less favorable terms than we have even now. At least at this point in time we are prosecuting invasion at a fairly leisurely pace. Hell, the Coalition eschewed much of their “Shock & Awe” campaign as unnecessarily dangerous and wasteful. We hit Baghdad, but the damn power stations are still running at full tilt!

You seem to fear what is happening right now. It’s too expensive from your point of view. Why not let Hussein run his course, contained as he was by weapons inspectors? Because there was always the danger he might have passed weapons, information, and materials into the wrong hands -–those of Palestinian militants whose sole objective is the destruction of the State of Israel. An attack on Tel Aviv or any other point in the Holy Land could indiscriminately kill thousands or more – Arab and Jew. And then what would happen? After we traced the terrorism to its source in Baghdad a global coalition assembles only to spend up to two months trying to build up while Hussein lobbed missiles into Kuwait? We go into an Iraq fully prepared for hostilities and aware of its complete isolation from the outside world? No thank you, sir. I’ll take my bets that we killed a dictator albeit harmless. Better safe than sorry.

Now you’re going to say that’s both arrogant and ignorant. Who am I to make those sorts of determinations? You’re half right. It is arrogant. It is ignorant. But George W. Bush is legally sworn to defend the United States of America – against all enemies; foreign, and domestic. We have to take the chance that in knocking out this dictator, we do more good than harm. It’s a fair (no, excellent) bet, too. Certainly many thousands of Iraqis will fall casualty on the road to effective demolition of the current regimé. But in the end, that’s far fewer than Saddam would have annually killed. It’s far fewer than would suffer if we were forced by circumstance to enter Iraq after Israel too was burning – and that’s assuming that Sharon held out against the hardliners and didn’t launch an attack of his own in response.
I learned that the only Tradegies that occur in this country - sorry, this Corrupt Regime - befall American soldiers.
That’s a load of bullshit and you know it. Like it or not, we’re solving a huge problem for the Iraqi people. I’ll go so far as to say that even an American dictator – which I’m convinced would never be installed anyway – were to come into power, it would still be better as far as the Iraqi people are concerned than life under Hussein and his spawn.
I learned that Saddam doesn't have co-workers, he has henchmen.
Why would you feel bitter over their characterization as henchmen? You’re trying to make my president out as some kind of fascist totalitarian.
I learned that the habits of a dictator's family is a very relevant topic when discussing a war.
It is when that family has slaughtered hundreds – no, tens of thousands – of Iraqis and must be watched carefully as a result of near-total control over the Ba’ath Party apparatus.
I learned that a sudden crippling attack upon a country is easily justified - just check to see if the population wears towels on their heads.
That’s bullshit and you know it. We aren’t attacking them because they’re Muslim. Now you’re just grandstanding and trying to wax philosophic for the benefit of your readers.
The world has the right to be afraid. We now know, once again, what a superpower can do, when it controls everything and has all the cards. As any sovereign nation, let's not forget that annexation and subjugation are just a rhetorical slogan away.
If we can do so much and are bound by so little, why the effort to go through the United Nations? Why the agonizing months spent watching U.N. weapons inspectors deny their original mandate in order to go about and try to handle disarmament all on their own? The United States apparently tolerates quite a lot and acts distinctly out-of-character for a brutal, dictatorial regimé.
If the US wants to do something, they can just reach out and squash anyone in the way.
It’s why we brushed the North Koreans away and fired missiles at Paris, right?
The US doesn't, as a whole, care about the rest of the world. The life of an American is worth more than a thousand civilians from any other country. Europe, to the US, is a monolithic entity that has a single opinion on all matters.
And you think any other government throughout the world is particularly interested in the safety of America outside fears that a blow to us is a blow to them by financial extension? Some cried over September 11th. Some wept. Some smiled bitterly. Not always was it out of pity, sympathy, or sadness.

We care about the rest of the world. It’s why we’ve increased foreign aid and maintained our ties to Afghanistan even now that the Taliban is gone. It’s why we keep the power on in Baghdad despite the fact that it helps Hussein’s men pose a larger threat. It’s why we tried so hard in Somalia despite the fact that they dragged the men who fed them through the streets, dead and disrobed. We might not have listened to global opinion this one particular time, but that’s because we felt global opinion hadn’t taken into account very private fears that were in this case all our own.
Attacking another country is the worst crime imaginable - unless you happen to think said country is starting to entertain thoughts of building weapons equal to your own. Supplying terrorists is bad, unless it happened a few years ago. Concentration camps are abominations, and never happened in the US.
Attacking a country isn’t a crime. It’s upsetting and unfortunate but hardly criminal no matter what giant debating societies such as the United Nations manage to say. This is especially true when you’re dealing with a man who runs a crackpot dictatorship that daily puts millions of people – his and yours both – on the brink of disaster. Supplying terrorists is bad. But so was militant Communism. At the time in which we dealt with Hussein, he was the lesser of so many other evils. At first it seemed as if he was doing things right, too. Schooling for women. Infrastructure and wealth in Iraq. Healthy doses of intellectual freedom all around. We didn’t make such a bad choice, it seemed, until 1991 or so. Then things became a bit different and we settled into a new role. But who is worse? The one who gave the push and later tried to stop it, or the one who let the ball keep rolling? Concentration camps are abominations. But I don’t see people being gassed or shot to death in the United States or Europe. Do you? Again, grandstanding for the sake of appearances.
And all that it reminds me of is a story a friend of mine told me some weeks ago. A swedish guy encounters a really obnoxious guy from the US while on a visit to Japan. They end up verbally assaulting each other, and finally the American, dazed and desperate for any victory, blurts out his compelling argument. "Hey, didn't we beat you guys in World War Two!?"
That reminds me of a story, too. A Cuban was seen in Havana during a protest outside Guantanamo Bay not so long ago. His sign? “Yankee Go Home … And Take Me With You!” We’re not so bad after all. In Iraq, thousands die to get out. In Europe and the United States, we hear almost weekly of how people have literally died attempting to get in.
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Post by Ymir »

Why do we have some sort of responsibility because we're the strongest?
Everyone has a responsibility. Nauru has one, Uzbekistan has one, Andorra has one, Iraq has one...and the US has one. But none are in such a good position to violate that responsibility as the US, and that makes their responsibility the greatest. If they want to keep som respect in the eyes of others, at least. They lost mine a rather long time ago.
The cease-fire halted the Second Persian Gulf War, and mandated that Saddam disarm. He did not
Well, according to the weapon inspectors and Swedish media, at least, he had just started. But the US obviously diden't give a damn about that and hurried bombing Iraq to kingdom come.
As for terrorism, Saddam has obvious ties to some groups even if his ties to Al-Qaeda are debateable.
Like the Uighur maffia. Why not bomb Xinjiang Uygur Zizhiqu while you're at it? Who knows, in a year or two they might turn their attention to the US.

- Ymir, talking about loose connections
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The Duchess of Zeon
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Darth Wong wrote:
The older plants can be. But the newer and upgraded plants are relatively clean. As good or better than most oil fired plants.
That's not saying much. If you've ever seen figures on coal-fired plants, even with flue-gas conditioning and scrubbers, you're still looking at hundreds of thousands of tons of waste being pumped into the atmosphere every year for a handful of plants.
I think one of Jimmy Carter's dumbest ideas was banning breeder reactors in commercial service because the spent fuel could be stolen by terrorists during the recycling process. (Yes, that was the official logic.) Well, what about the transport process to some giant cave where we let it sit and pray an earthquake doesn't happen? What we need are a lot more nukes, of course.
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SirNitram
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Post by SirNitram »

Ymir wrote:
The cease-fire halted the Second Persian Gulf War, and mandated that Saddam disarm. He did not
Well, according to the weapon inspectors and Swedish media, at least, he had just started. But the US obviously diden't give a damn about that and hurried bombing Iraq to kingdom come.
Oh my, he started to disarm after 12 years of demands. He's so fucking perfect and compliant... Moron.
As for terrorism, Saddam has obvious ties to some groups even if his ties to Al-Qaeda are debateable.
Like the Uighur maffia. Why not bomb Xinjiang Uygur Zizhiqu while you're at it? Who knows, in a year or two they might turn their attention to the US.

- Ymir, talking about loose connections
Do you enjoy riding your slippery slope, you moron? You're barely worth rebutting anymore.

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Post by RogueIce »

Wow, in the course of about six hours, there's been a 100 replies to this thread.

Quite a debate this thing brought up, huh? :D

Now to see if there's anything worth replying to (or at least that I'm capable of replying to, which means a rather large difference :D )
Ymir wrote:To not use such stepping stones at all. It's like contaminating a whole citys population with ebola, and then offer medical help to those that seems to survive. Painful medical help.
SirNitram covered this whole post better than I can, but I guess I'll throw in my two cents here.

One, they were needed at the time to counter other threats we had. And to blame the current administration for them is ridiculous. They're cleaning up the mess of past administrations if that's the way you want to look at this war and that of the Taliban. So saying we shouldn't have used them in the first place is not applicable...in this debate. That issue belongs in it's own debate.
Ymir wrote:Like the Uighur maffia. Why not bomb Xinjiang Uygur Zizhiqu while you're at it? Who knows, in a year or two they might turn their attention to the US.
In the time it took for me to type this post, this popped up...

As has been said before, Saddam is a target we , at this time, are able to go after. Just saying they are other threats in the world out there isn't enough; we know that. But as for being able to go after them, it's another matter entirely. Some Mafia somewhere (I'm guessing an Asian country on the name, correct me if I'm wrong) isn't exactly a viable target, particulary not if it's in another country.

At least, by visible means. The more covert means on the other hand... Well, I'll leave that speculation to those more knowledgable than I.
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Axis Kast
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Post by Axis Kast »

It’s funny. We have so much power to act independently and, from your point of view, shit all over everything Holy. And yet we spend so much of our time justifying everything to the rest of the world and trying vainly – while smearing egg all over our own face – to get some kind of consensus. But no. Did you ever stop to think that many Americans are now convinced that Europe doesn’t care about Hussein not because they think he’s contained but because they don’t fear what he might do?

The weapons inspectors fulfilled their duties. They confirmed that Hussein was in violation of 1441. Then they began a process of tooth-pulling that developed into a Catch 22. Hans Blix can now say forevermore than the Iraqis might have been disarmed fully anyway – if only we had not entered. We’ll make another claim: the Iraqis would never have been disarmed fully had we not entered. It’s down to a matter of ultimately unverifiable opinion.

Bombing the Uighur mafia? Red herring. Why? Because we’re talking about state-sponsored terrorism and the kind that resides in countries whose sovereignty we are obliged to respect. Tackling the potentially terrorism of an isolated, emaciated shell of a country like Iraq is one thing. The regimé was on its last legs and despite a suspected arsenal of dangerous weapons could not muster sufficient conventional strength to stop us. Trying to preempt terrorism by criminal cells – as opposed to state entities - in China is another issue entirely. Not that we aren’t attempting to do so via contact with Beijing. Not that we aren’t attempting to do so with men on the ground in Pakistan. Not that we aren’t attempting to do so via close contact with the Spanish, Germans, and United Kingdom. Not that we aren’t attempting to do so via close relations with Israel.

Why must it always be, “Why Iraq? Why them?” instead of, “Why not Iraq? Why not one more?”
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

SirNitram wrote: Oh my, he started to disarm after 12 years of demands. He's so fucking perfect and compliant... Moron.
There's some evidence he may not have started to disarm. The only voluntary disarmament was the al-Samoud II missiles, and the footage shown of those being crushed does not appear to show the destruction of actual missiles, but rather mockups. Considering that some of the U.N. inspectors did not even have appropriate qualification in technical fields to be evaluating what they were supposed to be looking for, it's not impossible Saddam just had backhoes out there crushing gussied-up metal tubes.
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Post by Ymir »

SirNitram, i might continue discussing with you when you stop assaulting me personally. Just because everyone else here seems fine with calling eachother 'assholes' and 'moronboy' it doesen't mean i have to resort to such behavior, or accept being object for it. I am able to have a civilized discussion, although i'm rather dissapointed on civilisation as a whole.

- Ymir, have no polar bears in Sweden
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Post by SirNitram »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
SirNitram wrote: Oh my, he started to disarm after 12 years of demands. He's so fucking perfect and compliant... Moron.
There's some evidence he may not have started to disarm. The only voluntary disarmament was the al-Samoud II missiles, and the footage shown of those being crushed does not appear to show the destruction of actual missiles, but rather mockups. Considering that some of the U.N. inspectors did not even have appropriate qualification in technical fields to be evaluating what they were supposed to be looking for, it's not impossible Saddam just had backhoes out there crushing gussied-up metal tubes.
I'm being generous and assuming the UN boys 'overseeing' it were on the ball. There's always the chance he pulled the wool over peoples eyes, but I might as well work with what is definately known, ya?
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Ymir wrote:SirNitram, i might continue discussing with you when you stop assaulting me personally. Just because everyone else here seems fine with calling eachother 'assholes' and 'moronboy' it doesen't mean i have to resort to such behavior, or accept being object for it. I am able to have a civilized discussion, although i'm rather dissapointed on civilisation as a whole.

- Ymir, have no polar bears in Sweden
Can't stand the heat, don't step into the fire.
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Post by SirNitram »

Ymir wrote:SirNitram, i might continue discussing with you when you stop assaulting me personally. Just because everyone else here seems fine with calling eachother 'assholes' and 'moronboy' it doesen't mean i have to resort to such behavior, or accept being object for it. I am able to have a civilized discussion, although i'm rather dissapointed on civilisation as a whole.

- Ymir, have no polar bears in Sweden
Fuck you. Fuck you you ignorant peice of fucking shit.

Now try and rebutt one fact I've laid out, kid. Go ahead, try. I will abuse you personally because you are proving yourself stupid. I will call the spade a spade, and you crying like a little bitchboy shall not change that. If you cannot find fault with my arguments, grow up and accept that you were proven wrong. That you were proven wrong by an asshole is merely a sidenote. Civilized discussion means playing by the rules, and not crying to mommy when someone dares to call you what you are.

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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

SirNitram wrote:
I'm being generous and assuming the UN boys 'overseeing' it were on the ball. There's always the chance he pulled the wool over peoples eyes, but I might as well work with what is definately known, ya?
Fair enough, and quite reasonable, though I'm certain I can provide more evidence for that than Ymir can for 99.5% of his claims.
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In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.
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Post by Axis Kast »

And this is treating Hans Blix fairly rather than as the obviously biased anti-war nut we all know him to be. Just like Kofi Annan, the man was virtually required to use ambiguous language and seek peace at every turn.
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SirNitram
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Post by SirNitram »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
I'm being generous and assuming the UN boys 'overseeing' it were on the ball. There's always the chance he pulled the wool over peoples eyes, but I might as well work with what is definately known, ya?
Fair enough, and quite reasonable, though I'm certain I can provide more evidence for that than Ymir can for 99.5% of his claims.
I'm sure it'd be worth considering, but it would be straying from the point of this topic. Then again, Ymir is straying from it by moving away from Eleas objections to it all.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Ymir wrote:SirNitram, i might continue discussing with you when you stop assaulting me personally. Just because everyone else here seems fine with calling eachother 'assholes' and 'moronboy' it doesen't mean i have to resort to such behavior, or accept being object for it. I am able to have a civilized discussion, although i'm rather dissapointed on civilisation as a whole.
Civilization requires rules and co-operation, not artificial manners and "style over substance" fallacies.
- Ymir, have no polar bears in Sweden
Why is that a good thing? Polar bears are cool. They drink Coca-cola :)
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Post by RogueIce »

Ymir wrote:SirNitram, i might continue discussing with you when you stop assaulting me personally. Just because everyone else here seems fine with calling eachother 'assholes' and 'moronboy' it doesen't mean i have to resort to such behavior, or accept being object for it. I am able to have a civilized discussion, although i'm rather dissapointed on civilisation as a whole.
Than you, my friend, are on the wrong board. :roll:

And that's like an appeal to style over substance, if I'm not mistaken (and if I am, I'm sure I'll be made aware of it...loudly :D ).
Ymir wrote:- Ymir, have no polar bears in Sweden
What the Hell sense does that make?? :?
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Post by RogueIce »

Darth Wong wrote:Civilization requires rules and co-operation, not artificial manners and "style over substance" fallacies.
Yay, I wasn't totally wrong in calling it that. Thank goodness. :)
Darth Wong wrote:Why is that a good thing? Polar bears are cool. They drink Coca-cola :)
Damn straight...I haven't seen those ads in forever. I liked them. Those bears were soooo cute. :D
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We rise with noble intentions,
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The war continues on..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, We Are All One (Medieval 2: Total War)
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear." - Ambrose Redmoon
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Post by SirNitram »

RogueIce wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Civilization requires rules and co-operation, not artificial manners and "style over substance" fallacies.
Yay, I wasn't totally wrong in calling it that. Thank goodness. :)
Darth Wong wrote:Why is that a good thing? Polar bears are cool. They drink Coca-cola :)
Damn straight...I haven't seen those ads in forever. I liked them. Those bears were soooo cute. :D
All hail the polar bears!

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Post by Steve »

Darth Wong wrote:Polar bears are cool. They drink Coca-cola :)
8)
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Re: Provocation

Post by fgalkin »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
fgalkin wrote: Let's just hope that the attack doesn't happen before 2008. If any move is taken against Saudi Arabia, it will raise a shit-storm of Islamic fundamentalism, including possible suicide bombings from muslim American citizens (I don't know the priorities of Islamic fundies, but I'll guess they are the same that of the Christian fundies, that is, God first, Amrerica second). The last thing we want is Shrubby & Co. at the helm handling the situation.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
They're the only people who have the guts and the genius to pull it off. Properly planned and vigorously executed, and supported by the right nations - the help of whom can be gained in the appropriate ways - we can strike down the Wahhabi State. It probably won't happen before 2008 - But I expect our President after 2008 to be Condi Rice. Such a conflict might indeed see a violent response, but if aggressively waged, and if our target is properly recognized, such a true demonstration of American power - and our willingness to rearrange State boundaries - will end the issue decisively.

Other States beyond the KSA will have to be targeted, but few with direct military force.

Make no mistake, though - Iraq is in truth just one campaign in a very long and uncertain War against Islamofascism.
There is not a possibility of violence. It is almost certain. OBL has come after us because of the presence of American "infidels" in the Holy Land. What do you think will happen if it is actually attacked?

Also, the Bush administration has seemed to antagonize everyone. The war ahead cannot be fought without the support of some crucial nations, Russia, for example, yet it seems that of all the nations, it opposes the US the strongest. If we go in without their support, bad things will happen to Russia and the rest of the world.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
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Post by Axis Kast »

An invasion of Saudi Arabia doesn't make sense as of this moment.

Better to consolidate our position in Iraq and complete the rebuilding process over a period of at least five years before we begin to consider a new campaign next door. And that's if things go extremely well and we begin moving the majority of our troops into Iraq from Saudi Arabia for permenant basing after the war.

Condoleeza Rice in 2008? I doubt it. Hillary Clinton's got a better chance than her. If anything, Colin Powell might run at that time.
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Post by Stormbringer »

Darth Wong wrote:Why is that a good thing? Polar bears are cool. They drink Coca-cola :)
The American Empire will get you too! Mwuahaha! :twisted:
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fgalkin
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Post by fgalkin »

Axis Kast wrote:An invasion of Saudi Arabia doesn't make sense as of this moment.

Better to consolidate our position in Iraq and complete the rebuilding process over a period of at least five years before we begin to consider a new campaign next door. And that's if things go extremely well and we begin moving the majority of our troops into Iraq from Saudi Arabia for permenant basing after the war.

Condoleeza Rice in 2008? I doubt it. Hillary Clinton's got a better chance than her. If anything, Colin Powell might run at that time.
No one said it should take place now. She said that Saudi Arabia is a problem that will be taken care of eventually.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
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The Duchess of Zeon
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Response to the post of Eleas.

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Purgatorio, (Excerpt, Canto VI)
But Virgil went straight up to him and asked
directions for the best way to ascend.
The shade ignored the question put to him,

asking of us, instead, where we were born
and who we were. My gentle guide began:
"Mantua..." And the other, until then

all self-absorbed, sprang to his feet and came
tow him: "O Mantuan, I am Sordello
of your own town" - and the two shades embraced.

(Ah, slavish Italy, the home of grief,
ship without pilot caught in the raging storm,
no queen of provinces - whorehouse of shame!

How quick that noble soul was to respond
to the mere sound of his sweet city's name,
by welcoming his fellow citizen -

while, now, no one within your bounds knows rest
from war, and those enclosed by the same wall
and moat, even they are at each other's throats!
"Mantua..."

"Oh Mantuan, I am Sordello of your own town..." Dante, in a time of strife and uncertainty, could pack in two short sentences all the emotion and intensity and explaination of the world.

So you see, Eleas, so many people here on ASVS, on SD.net - who seemed to be my friends - Yourself, included - they have come out so strongly against the war. And I must sigh, and shudder, at the vehemence, and know something is lost.

For even as your opposition, even as the polarization here, dims something, I have made many friends with my stance - Mostly Americans. Which is why I thought of Canto VI. In times like these, the nation-state as with the city-state binds us. Your country is drawn to a certain orbit, mine forges its own destiny, which I must support to the bitter end.

And so I have something uniquely in common with anyone who can say their name, and utter in addition to it "I am an American", than with so many around the world. And I pity it, because something is lost in that. But I'm also reassured, because that bond of the citizens of a country has always been there, and so as I read what you have written, I am not angered, or surprised. You will do as your nation does, and I will do as mine does, and we will maintain the faith of each other's courses in opposition. Your friend is Ymir, and mine are those I have made among those who hold America's course.

Of course, I do not mean to a sunder a friendship - but where such vehemence is found on issues of life or death, a coolness arises. And so it is today.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.

In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.
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The Duchess of Zeon
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Axis Kast wrote:
Condoleeza Rice in 2008? I doubt it. Hillary Clinton's got a better chance than her. If anything, Colin Powell might run at that time.
You overestimate Hillary's chances - She's completely out of touch with the swing vote.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.

In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.
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