I could make you a fool proof hypoxia cell with shed tools. All it needs to be is airtight on demand and have a vent hole so you can hook up your not-oxygen. Seal the room, discharge gas, make sure the .50 cent oxygen senor from radio shack reports no oxygen in the room wait ten minutes then remove body.General Zod wrote:How much of a risk of failure does hypoxia have? I understand it's foolproof if you do it right, but that assumes everything goes 100% and you've got trained technicians. With a guillotine there's practically zero chance of failure and almost any moron could operate one. As far as cleanup, well, it's no worse than the average CSI tech sees, right? Just change the design to contain the blood spray and you're good to go.
47 minutes of pain
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Re: 47 minutes of pain
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Re: 47 minutes of pain
Incorrect. There are accounts of the mechanism jamming, or an insufficiently weighted or sharpened blade failing to completely sever the neck, leaving the unfortunate victim with a huge blade embedded in his/her neck or spine. Like all mechanisms, they require proper maintenance and you'll need a Plan B in case something goes seriously wrong.General Zod wrote:With a guillotine there's practically zero chance of failure and almost any moron could operate one.
Holy crap, I'm not sure you understand what kind of a firehose the human neck turns into when the major arteries are severed like that. That sort of thing does occur in our world, but I seriously doubt "CSI techs" see that on a regular basis. The heart is going to keep beating until all the blood is gone. It will be extremely messy.As far as cleanup, well, it's no worse than the average CSI tech sees, right? Just change the design to contain the blood spray and you're good to go.
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Re: 47 minutes of pain
Emphasis on "contain the bloodspray". I'm thinking a sort of coffin-like box for the head to sit inside as the blade gets dropped on them; it wouldn't be a huge challenge to design and limit cleanup to spraying down the box. WRT csi techs, well, there's news articles out there featuring crime scene photos of suicides by shotgun and let's just say they're a lot messier than what I have in mind.Broomstick wrote: Holy crap, I'm not sure you understand what kind of a firehose the human neck turns into when the major arteries are severed like that. That sort of thing does occur in our world, but I seriously doubt "CSI techs" see that on a regular basis. The heart is going to keep beating until all the blood is gone. It will be extremely messy.
Who knows, maybe making it more barbaric and less clinical than hypoxia might encourage a shift to people wanting to eliminate the death penalty altogether.
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Re: 47 minutes of pain
Approximately zero using inert gasses. Worst case scenario is a feed failure and then all you get is someone in a room with a bit of a headache while you sort out the problem, rather than the suffering that a malfunctioning guillotine can and will cause.General Zod wrote:How much of a risk of failure does hypoxia have? I understand it's foolproof if you do it right, but that assumes everything goes 100% and you've got trained technicians. With a guillotine there's practically zero chance of failure and almost any moron could operate one. As far as cleanup, well, it's no worse than the average CSI tech sees, right? Just change the design to contain the blood spray and you're good to go.
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Re: 47 minutes of pain
Zero. What with the need to have oxygen to, you know, live. In the event that there is a break in the N2 line, then you have an embarrassing situation where the condemned is in a room not dying for a while. You may want to give him a magazine or something while you get it fixed. If there is a leak you cant find, he may take longer to die, but that length of time is completely painless, worst case scenario, they develop a slight headache to go along with giddy euphoria, instead of the giddy euphoria.How much of a risk of failure does hypoxia have?
Not covertly executing them. They just dont know the room they are in is a gas chamber. They know the date of their execution, they know how. It is just a matter of violating their expectation of what the gas chamber itself will be. A guillotine is viscerally horrifying. People did not go to that thing calmly. It is hard to be scared of a waiting room.The flip side of that is that you know when you're not going to be beheaded. I don't think it's a good thing for the justice system to be covertly executing prisoners. If nothing else, it's going to make some of your prisoners freak out when they think they're in one of those killing chambers, even if they're not.
It is easier to clean up the remains of a human corpse when you are not part of the machine that put the corpse there.As far as cleanup, well, it's no worse than the average CSI tech sees, right?
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Re: 47 minutes of pain
I bet I could turn that argument on it's head. What's more dignified, pissing yourself out of fear while going through all the theatrical bullshit involved with the current states execution methods or dying peacefully and calmly because you're not even aware that you're in the death chamber?Simon_Jester wrote:I think there's a 'dignity of the condemned' argument against taking prisoners on death row and executing them without telling them they're going to be executed that day.Mr. Coffee wrote:There are portable system that can make O2 from air that you can run off a car's lighter plug. Not sure, but I think you could do the same with nitrogen, and do the deed pretty much where ever the fuck you want. Condemned is just walking about all "derp derp I hope my appeal is ok derp derp" and falls over dead without even knowing it.
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Re: 47 minutes of pain
For the first person you pull that trick on. Then, it will become common knowledge, and from that moment on, they will assume that everytime they will be left out of their cell, it could be the last walk to a disguised gas chamber. Or that their cell is one, too, and somebody is about to throw the switch... People would live in constant terror during their incarceration period.Mr. Coffee wrote:I bet I could turn that argument on it's head. What's more dignified, pissing yourself out of fear while going through all the theatrical bullshit involved with the current states execution methods or dying peacefully and calmly because you're not even aware that you're in the death chamber?
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Re: 47 minutes of pain
There might be an aspect of religion in there, as in "make peace with your deity now, it's the last chance you're going to get while you're still alive". I suppose you can get around this by saying "unless the courts tell us otherwise, you'll be put to death some time in the next 72 hours. The air-tight cell you're in will just be switched over from normal breathing air to 99% nitrogen, something you won't notice until you wake up to find yourself dead."Mr. Coffee wrote:I bet I could turn that argument on it's head. What's more dignified, pissing yourself out of fear while going through all the theatrical bullshit involved with the current states execution methods or dying peacefully and calmly because you're not even aware that you're in the death chamber?
Actually, come to think of it, I'm not sure which of those would be more terrifying. In the first case, it would be very intensely, acutely stressful for all but the most serene. The second case would be less stressful, but the condemned would be thinking that every noise he hears would signal the beginning of his end for days at a stretch. Try to get a good night's sleep with that hanging over your head.
Still, even with that kind of stress, it's got to better than lethal injection or any of the other ways which can be so easily botched. If the goal is just to humanely end a person's life at a (more or less) controlled time and place, with everything else being secondary to that goal, then hypoxia has to be the only way to go.
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Re: 47 minutes of pain
Shouldn't that be up to the guy being executed? Even if you don't like the guillotine, I think the inmate ought to have the option at least.Mr. Coffee wrote:I bet I could turn that argument on it's head. What's more dignified, pissing yourself out of fear while going through all the theatrical bullshit involved with the current states execution methods or dying peacefully and calmly because you're not even aware that you're in the death chamber?Simon_Jester wrote:I think there's a 'dignity of the condemned' argument against taking prisoners on death row and executing them without telling them they're going to be executed that day.Mr. Coffee wrote:There are portable system that can make O2 from air that you can run off a car's lighter plug. Not sure, but I think you could do the same with nitrogen, and do the deed pretty much where ever the fuck you want. Condemned is just walking about all "derp derp I hope my appeal is ok derp derp" and falls over dead without even knowing it.
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Re: 47 minutes of pain
The problem is that people aren't going to remain unaware of this for long. The awareness that they are in a death chamber will be replaced by the awareness that they might be in one at any time. Not good.Mr. Coffee wrote:I bet I could turn that argument on it's head. What's more dignified, pissing yourself out of fear while going through all the theatrical bullshit involved with the current states execution methods or dying peacefully and calmly because you're not even aware that you're in the death chamber?Simon_Jester wrote:I think there's a 'dignity of the condemned' argument against taking prisoners on death row and executing them without telling them they're going to be executed that day.
Even if it's not a religious thing, coming to terms with one's own death is still something people seem to want an opportunity to do. I'm thinking of The Stranger by Camus.SCRawl wrote:There might be an aspect of religion in there, as in "make peace with your deity now, it's the last chance you're going to get while you're still alive".
The death row infrastructure is already designed around the idea of people knowing the time and place of their death, and that part of the process doesn't seem to be the problem as such. There are various little rituals tied up in that which seem to work- the last meal and so on.
I'm not sure we should mess with it.
I find the prospect of having to spend 72 hours wondering whether I'm going to be alive or dead in the next thirty minutes... frankly, that's terrifying.I suppose you can get around this by saying "unless the courts tell us otherwise, you'll be put to death some time in the next 72 hours. The air-tight cell you're in will just be switched over from normal breathing air to 99% nitrogen, something you won't notice until you wake up to find yourself dead."
Actually, come to think of it, I'm not sure which of those would be more terrifying. In the first case, it would be very intensely, acutely stressful for all but the most serene. The second case would be less stressful, but the condemned would be thinking that every noise he hears would signal the beginning of his end for days at a stretch. Try to get a good night's sleep with that hanging over your head.
It's a perfectly reasonable means of execution- I just think that if prisoners know their lives may end seemingly at random at an unknown time, that this will create an atmosphere of psychological torture and terror.Still, even with that kind of stress, it's got to better than lethal injection or any of the other ways which can be so easily botched. If the goal is just to humanely end a person's life at a (more or less) controlled time and place, with everything else being secondary to that goal, then hypoxia has to be the only way to go.
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Re: 47 minutes of pain
IMHO some amount of pomp and ritual should be presumed unless the condemned consciously opts out of it. Some people may feel better if there is some kind of formal preparation, some may not, and either way it can be televised for the sick fucks who want to see it.
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Re: 47 minutes of pain
Yes. It would be terrifying. Which is why I propose no such thing. You want them to know they are going to die that day. Hell, you want them to know they are being taken to their death. What you dont want is for them to see the instrument of their death as an instrument of their death. You dont want a big scary gas chamber. You want a room. Just like any other room. Not something to be feared.I find the prospect of having to spend 72 hours wondering whether I'm going to be alive or dead in the next thirty minutes... frankly, that's terrifying.
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Re: 47 minutes of pain
Or if you wanted, you could allow them to have a few personal items from their life or childhood with them so they can die next to something that brought them joy or comfort in the past. I don't feel that it's a requirement for the condemned to die uncomfortable and scared. It's enough that we're taking their life, the least we can do is make sure they are physically and emotionally comfortable while they wait to die.You want a room. Just like any other room. Not something to be feared.
With that said, I do understand the position of those who wish to have a bloody spectacle to satisfy their need for revenge. But in all honesty...you get to watch the person who victimized you or your family die. It's a bit sadist to demand pain, suffering, and blood on top of all that.
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Re: 47 minutes of pain
Yes, I was the one who suggested it, and then (implicitly) dismissed it as any kind of workable policy.Alyrium Denryle wrote:Yes. It would be terrifying. Which is why I propose no such thing.I find the prospect of having to spend 72 hours wondering whether I'm going to be alive or dead in the next thirty minutes... frankly, that's terrifying.
Indeed, just an ordinary 6' x 8' x 8' cell with a cot ought to do the trick, as long as it's sealed and ventilated in the correct way. Some thought would have to go into the furnishings, to make it so that they couldn't be used to block up the vent or do something else inconvenient. One window, for observers. Maybe even pipe in video to the condemned person's preference, to have something to watch while waiting to run out of oxygen. Not dramatic, but effective.Alyrium Denryle wrote: You dont want a big scary gas chamber. You want a room. Just like any other room. Not something to be feared.
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Re: 47 minutes of pain
How "humane" was the old Soviet method of bullet to the base of the neck?
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Re: 47 minutes of pain
One would want to double-tap, but otherwise pretty good. For the condemned. Not so much for the executioner.Metahive wrote:How "humane" was the old Soviet method of bullet to the base of the neck?
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Re: 47 minutes of pain
Killing other people in cold blood shouldn't be easy, so for me this'd be a feature, not a bug.Alyrium Denryle wrote: One would want to double-tap, but otherwise pretty good. For the condemned. Not so much for the executioner.
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Re: 47 minutes of pain
Wouldn't a bullet to the base of the neck have the same effect as a guillotine? The head living on for a couple more minutes?
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Re: 47 minutes of pain
I presume the bullet is aimed at the brainstem, death should be immediate if the shooter has been accurate enough.
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Re: 47 minutes of pain
There is "not easy" and then there is PTSD. There is no need to punish them for doing their job.Metahive wrote:Killing other people in cold blood shouldn't be easy, so for me this'd be a feature, not a bug.Alyrium Denryle wrote: One would want to double-tap, but otherwise pretty good. For the condemned. Not so much for the executioner.
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Re: 47 minutes of pain
If you take a look at the mental health of military drone operators, it seems that the proximity to the person you're killing and/or visibility of blood don't make much difference for coming down with PTSD.Alyrium Denryle wrote:There is "not easy" and then there is PTSD. There is no need to punish them for doing their job.Metahive wrote:Killing other people in cold blood shouldn't be easy, so for me this'd be a feature, not a bug.Alyrium Denryle wrote: One would want to double-tap, but otherwise pretty good. For the condemned. Not so much for the executioner.
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Re: 47 minutes of pain
Diffusion of responsibility does. If you have an elaborate mechanism with a number of dials (most of which are dummies, determined at random), or a number of steps, each person involved can rationalize their guilt away as being part of a machine or not being sure if their actions resulted in someone's death. It is why in old firing squads, only one or two would have actual bullets, and why different people in lethal injections press the button on different plungers.
If you take a look at the mental health of military drone operators, it seems that the proximity to the person you're killing and/or visibility of blood don't make much difference for coming down with PTSD.
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Re: 47 minutes of pain
If you are pro-DP then I say you should also be ready to accept any and all responisibility and repercussions that come with it. Killing people cold-bloodedly is in my opinion something that should never become an ordinary job.
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Re: 47 minutes of pain
Metahive wrote:If you are pro-DP then I say you should also be ready to accept any and all responisibility and repercussions that come with it. Killing people cold-bloodedly is in my opinion something that should never become an ordinary job.
I am categorically against the death penalty, but if you are going to do it, do it right. Doing it right does not include tormenting the poor sap who is doing his job at the behest of the state.
So long as the death penalty exists someone has to actually carry out the sentence, and it is supremely hypocritical to cause suffering to the guy who carries out a sentence that frankly, he had no role in deciding. Dont you think they already understand the gravity of what they do? Why the fuck do you want them to suffer for it? I can guess. Would you like me to guess? I will guess because I dont actually care what you want.
You are jerking off into a pool of your own self-righteousness. That is why.
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Re: 47 minutes of pain
Question, are people forced randomly to become executioners or is this a trade by choice? Your whole spiel falls apart if it's the latter.
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